Too many Bf 109s in the game?

[Enceladus828]

 In the Battle of Moscow there is the Bf 109 F-2 and the E-7. In Battle of Stalingrad there is the Bf 109 F-4 and G-2. In Battle of Kuban there is the G-4; and the G-6 is to be released as a Collector plane soon.

                            This is way too many Bf 109s, and except for the E-7, they are pretty much identical to one another. The G-4 is a field mod of the G-2, and is identical, with the G-4 having a fixed tailwheel. I believe that other types of planes that fought in these battles should have been added instead.

 

   My list of planes would be.

          BOS                                                        BOM                                                      BOK

USSR.    Germany                                          Same                                         USSR               Germany

Yak 1      Bf 109 G-2                                                                                          Yak 7                Bf 109 G-6

LaGG 3   Fw-190 A-3                                                                                        A-20B                He-111-16

IL-2         Ju 87                                                                                                  P-39L-1             Fw 190 A-5

Pe 2        He-111-6                                                                                            IL-2 mod 43      Bf 110 G-2

                                                                                                                                                    The Bf 109 G-2 can be used in BOK with field mods

       Collector                                                                                                                Collector

La 5         IAR 80                                                                                                           Same

[Ribbon]

Sudoku? ;P

[Finkeren]

The Bf 109 was the mainstay Luftwaffe fighter and on the Eastern Front it dominated the Jagdgeschwadern completely up ‘till mid-1942. While I honetsly think, that we have 1 Bf 109 model too many - having both the G2 and G4 seems a bit superfluous (though the G4 is not a ‘field mod’ as you erroneously claim) it otherwise makes sense, that for the theater and time frame of the sim, there are going to be a lot of different 109s.

[curiousGamblerr]

I can understand this knee jerk reaction to the lot of 109s we have, but if you look at history it does make sense. Curse the LW for sticking to two mainstays instead of the variety of the VVS!

[BraveSirRobin]

This is an easy problem to solve. Go back in time and convince Germany to produce some kind of fighter other than the 109 or 190.

[Field-Ops]

This is interesting to touch on as Germany used the same airframes for their fighters nearly the whole war. That is the Bf109 and Fw190, with the most noteable changes coming in 1944 and 45. Other nations had a vast number of different airframes. Japanese had 2 or 3 airframes each for their navy and army with a few more later in the war. Russians had a bunch of different Yaks, Laggs, La and some american airframes. Britain had the Spits, Hurries and Typhoons. The Americans had so many airframes its possible this game would need to come out with an allied pack after selling a main pack.

 

Point being, the way Il-2 BoX business model is set up right now there was no other way to model the German lineup without using the same airframe for 3 consecutive years. With the variety of the Russian fighters they didnt have to do that. Thats why you dont see a bunch of different series of the Yak-1 or Lagg-3 and instead see them jump to the Mig-3 and Yak-7 to touch up on other possibilities. The Germans didnt have the same variety, plain and simple.

 

Edit, and I forgot to add. Because of this we may never see the different evolutions involved with american / russian / japanese airframes that we are seeing with germany. For example we may never see P39-K/L/M/N/Q all in this one sim because to make it interesting you cant do that. Germany is the only one youl get away with doing that for. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Field-Ops

[LukeFF]

except for the E-7, they are pretty much identical to one another.

 

F-2 vs F-4: different engines, different armament options

 

G-2: different engine than F series, different power settings, different canopy

 

The G-4 is a field mod of the G-2, and is identical, with the G-4 having a fixed tailwheel.

 

Ehm, no, it was not a field mod. Besides the game's model lifting the DB605's boost restriction, it has larger mainwheels and thus a different wing surface. Those things were fitted at the factory.

 

BOM

 

No, just no. The versions of the Yak-1 and the LaGG-3 current modeled are wholly inappropriate to the BoM. Same with the G-2 and 190 A-3. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by LukeFF

[curiousGamblerr]

This is an easy problem to solve. Go back in time and convince Germany to produce some kind of fighter other than the 109 or 190.

BSR we might've has our differences lately, and you areee a bit of a jerk sometimes, but you def make sense and make me crack up often

[Ribbon]

From LW perspective; why change something that works well, in this case only upgrading 109 airframe variant and 190.

From VVS perspective; keep searching solution for problem until you find it!

That's why so many variants!

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

I think the current choice of aircraft is very intelligent. I remember being quite frustrated by the lack of Luftwaffe variants in 2001 Il-2.

 

Bf 109 F-2 -> G-2 -> G-6 was insufficient because it was the only fighter type available (save for a single Focke-Wulf). 

 

That said, it would be nice to have another series of LaGG (or of a different Soviet aircraft) for use in BoX. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Mitthrawnuruodo

[56RAF_Roblex]

You should also consider that the VVS tended to change the name where the LW or RAF would have just made it a different model.  The YAK-3, Yak-7 and YAK-9 were all varieties of Yak-1.   The La-5 was a Lagg with a different engine.   Look at it that way and there are only three VVS fighters and lots of variants :-)

Edited November 12, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Finkeren]

Problem is, that for this theater, there is just no way the Luftwaffe can match the number of different types operated by the Soviet air forces. To do that you’ll have to include the Finns as well.

[ZachariasX]

There might be too many 109 on WoL, but about having excessive *type variants* in the game, ehmm... No.

 

We‘re lucky that the Germans didn‘t follow through with their plans of having only 5 (!) standard types in production. The German trainee pilots were lucky as well. The GL forgot to include a basic trainer aircraft in those 5 types and would have required novice pilots doing their very first hours on front line aircraft...

[CanadaOne]

More 109s simply means more targets.

[Finkeren]

You should also consider that the VVS tended to change the name where the LW or RAF would have just made it a different model. The YAK-3, Yak-7 and YAK-9 were all varieties of Yak-1. The La-5 was a Lagg with a different engine. Look at it that way and there are only three VVS fighters and lots of variants :-)

Only 3 fighters of that generation. You have to take into account the loads of I-16s and I-153 that soldiered on for the first couple of years of the war.

 

And then of course there are the thousands of LL aircraft. The USSR operated 4 major foreign fighter designs in significant numbers: Hurricane, Spitfire (mostly on defensive duty), P-39/63 and P-40.

 

The Soviet air forces were more diverse than most others in WW2 rivaled only by the U.S. and FiAF.

[dburne]

I am with the OP, yes too dang many of those darn bumble bees! 

Yes I fly VVS  and they give me fits! LOL.

[JG27_Steini]

You dont get the point from OP. 

 

He only wants to say that german planes do not vary much. He is right. Nothing more to say.

 

@Topic: Maybe we will have a Battle over Berlin some day. Then there would be options like Me 163, Me 262. That would bring more variaty for german fans. I do understand that BF 109 is always a similar tactict, no mater which period of time. For some pilos this might get boring. But understand that this is a simulation, thats wants to be as accurate as possible. And this is what you get

[Field-Ops]

He takes his point further by plainly saying he thinks BOM has no place in the series, and he is wrong.

[ShamrockOneFive]

 In the Battle of Moscow there is the Bf 109 F-2 and the E-7. In Battle of Stalingrad there is the Bf 109 F-4 and G-2. In Battle of Kuban there is the G-4; and the G-6 is to be released as a Collector plane soon.

                            This is way too many Bf 109s, and except for the E-7, they are pretty much identical to one another. The G-4 is a field mod of the G-2, and is identical, with the G-4 having a fixed tailwheel. I believe that other types of planes that fought in these battles should have been added instead.

 

   My list of planes would be.

          BOS                                                        BOM                                                      BOK

USSR.    Germany                                          Same                                         USSR               Germany

Yak 1      Bf 109 G-2                                                                                          Yak 7                Bf 109 G-6

LaGG 3   Fw-190 A-3                                                                                        A-20B                He-111-16

IL-2         Ju 87                                                                                                  P-39L-1             Fw 190 A-5

Pe 2        He-111-6                                                                                            IL-2 mod 43      Bf 110 G-2

                                                                                                                                                    The Bf 109 G-2 can be used in BOK with field mods

       Collector                                                                                                                Collector

La 5         IAR 80                                                                                                           Same

 

Some issues with the "new" planesets. FW190A-3 was not at Stalingrad even though it was around during the time of Stalingrad. The two main types present at Stalingrad were the F-4 at the beginning and increasing numbers of the G-2 during the middle part. The way that the developers did that was very much accurate to the history.

 

Battle of Kuban has a similar issue as you've proposed. The key types during this battle were the G-2 and the G-4. The G-6 variant only arrives in the last month/month and a half.

 

The Bf109 is the key type for 1941 through 1943 after which it begins to have more of a 50/50 split with the FW190 in the east. It was inevtiable that we'd end up with a lot of versions.

 

They are all similar yes but they are not the same. They don't even fly exactly the same. I notice the difference between the F-2, F-4, G-2 and G-4. Its even more of a difference  between the F-2 and the G-4. I realize for some that the similarities are an issue but for me I very much appreciate the extreme attention to detail on in-service dates and key types present.

 

One aircraft on the list that I'd very much like to see is that IAR80/81. Apparently resources for references are a problem and that may be why we just haven't seen it so far. Hopefully one day it can be revisited.

[xvii-Dietrich]

Too many 109s?

 

Well, as others have mentioned, Germany is pretty much limited to the Bf-109 and FW-190.

 

But, don't forget we also have the Mc.202. (Although the Mc.200 would probably be more appropriate).

 

So, currently, there are 3 main designs.

 

 

 

 

But there are not a lot of other options.

 

The Romanians have the IAR80/81, but this is not so relevant for the maps we have. There is supposedly an Odessa map on its way, but even so, the Devs have said they don't have the resources to take on the IAR at the moment.

 

Then the Finns deployed a multitude of different aircraft (VL Myrsky, Fokker XXI, Brewster F2A Buffalo, Hawker Hurricane, Curtiss P-36, Mörkö-Morane, LaGG-3, etc.) but, again, these are "off map". We need a Karelian map, please!

 

 

However, ultimately there is the issue of resources. Totally new aircraft are more work than variants of the existing set. The Devs are a small team, with limited resources and a HUGE amount of work on their plates already. Rolling out some more 109s, however repetitive it might seem (and I too thought so once), does make sense when they need to sustain the series.

[Guest deleted@30725]

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by deleted@30725

[BraveSirRobin]

BSR we might've has our differences lately, and you areee a bit of a jerk sometimes, but you def make sense and make me crack up often

My work here is done.

[LLv34_Temuri]

To do that you’ll have to include the Finns as well.

Yes yes! Give us the Brewster! =)

Curtiss P-36

Yes yes! Give us the Sussu too!

[ElPerk]

Yes yes! Give us the Brewster! =)

Yes yes! Give us the Sussu too!

FAF would be a ridiculous mix of weird planes. It would be a hilarious addon. "This French plane, fitted with a Russian engine and German weapons, has all the instruments in Finnish." Too bad there would not be much for Soviet side save for a couple of bombers, I-153 and maybe Hurricane, and someone would have to pay several modellers for several years to get even a part of the list finished. The devs would probably start to contemplate suicide when they saw the list, too.

 

M.S.406 and the Klimov Ogre-Moranes, Fokker D.XXI, Curtiss Hawks with different engines, Gloster Gladiators and Gauntlets, G.50, customized Buffalo 239s, two Blenheims, Dornier 17s and Fokker C.Xs. And while you're at it, why not throw in more weirdoes like VL Myrsky and an insane number of captured planes operated variously in various roles in various places in various configurations.

 

 

[xvii-Dietrich]

FAF would be a ridiculous mix of weird planes.

 

On the other hand, the Finnish airforce is probably the best  representation of the BoX multiplayer environment.

 

• Loads of aircraft of different types,
• Often working alone or in small groups,
• Each with different loadouts,
• Based out of random airfields,
• Piloted by a random assortment of aces.

 

 

It would be a hilarious addon. "This French plane, fitted with a Russian engine and German weapons, has all the instruments in Finnish." Too bad there would not be much for Soviet side save for a couple of bombers, I-153 and maybe Hurricane, and someone would have to pay several modellers for several years to get even a part of the list finished. The devs would probably start to contemplate suicide when they saw the list, too.

 

M.S.406 and the Klimov Ogre-Moranes, Fokker D.XXI, Curtiss Hawks with different engines, Gloster Gladiators and Gauntlets, G.50, customized Buffalo 239s, two Blenheims, Dornier 17s and Fokker C.Xs. And while you're at it, why not throw in more weirdoes like VL Myrsky and an insane number of captured planes operated variously in various roles in various places in various configurations.

 

Sounds good. Bring it on!

 

 

 

 

PS:  You forgot to mention the Do-22 in your list.   ;-)

[ElPerk]

On the other hand, the Finnish airforce is probably the best  representation of the BoX multiplayer environment.

 

• Loads of aircraft of different types,
• Often working alone or in small groups,
• Each with different loadouts,
• Based out of random airfields,
• Piloted by a random assortment of aces.

 

 

Sounds good. Bring it on!

 

 

 

 

PS:  You forgot to mention the Do-22 in your list.   ;-)

Oh, I left out many planes :D We didn't even go to the vast assortment of different liaison-recce-transport aircraft!

 

Semi-seriously, you could make a standard set for approximately autumn 1941 for something like:

FAF:

- Brewster B239

- Curtiss Hawk [some model]

- Bristol Blenheim IV

- Fokker C.X? Do 17?

Premium:

M.S.406

 

VVS is problematic:

I-153

LaGG-3 early series?

Tupolev SB or DB-3

Something something no idea?

Premium:

Hurricane miiiiight be OK

 

But this is just pure fantasy until... late 2020s, and at that point we are all scavenging for food, memes and joystick spare parts in a desolate wasteland

[Cpt_Cool]

He takes his point further by plainly saying he thinks BOM has no place in the series, and he is wrong.

 

 

I actually think he means that the devs got the BOM plane set correct (and the collector planes for BOK). Still I don't agree with his point though.

[LLv24_Zami]

No, there`s never too many 109s in a WW2 game 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

My work here is done.

 

Now the only thing we're missing is LukeFF and a dead horse.

[Lusekofte]

This is interesting to touch on as Germany used the same airframes for their fighters nearly the whole war.

This is by many historians a huge mistake, if jet engines had been given the right priority when it was invented it would have been operational much earlier. The constant belief that the war would be over until they was in deep [Edited], both economical and in resources like men and material. 

Luftwaffe did not think they needed a strategic bomber, and before that they did not believe they needed to train more pilots. This was a attitude they still had after loosing Battle of Britain. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Bearcat
Profanity

[Finkeren]

This is by many historians a huge mistake, if jet engines had been given the right priority when it was invented it would have been operational much earlier. The constant belief that the war would be over until they was in deep [Edited], both economical and in resources like men and material.

Luftwaffe did not think they needed a strategic bomber, and before that they did not believe they needed to train more pilots. This was a attitude they still had after loosing Battle of Britain.

Problem is: You generally want to avoid introducing completely new equipment into service during a war if you possibly can, especially if the war is of WW2 proportions and you don’t have the luxury of having a safe home base on a different continent, like the US has had in most of its wars.

 

Introducing new equipment slows down production, requires retraining of troops/pilots and brings a heap of teething problems that have to be solved before full scale deployment and full combat effectiveness can be attained.

 

Look at the Soviet Union: During their war with Germany they only introduced one major new aircraft design into service (Tu-2) and one new tank design (T-70). Everything else was a modification of something that was already in production.

 

Germany on the other hand actually got into a bad habit of trying to introduce completely new advanced equipment, weapons and vehicles into large scale production in the middle of the war. Sometimes it worked out pretty well (like the Fw 190) but often it resulted in a mess during the transition period, even when the new design turned out to be great, as was the case with the Panther tank. And sometimes the whole thing just turned out to be a big, expensive dud, like the He 177 and God knows how many other designs that kinda made it into production (and thus held back production of tried-and-true designs) but never became available in sufficient numbers and failed to make any real impact on the war. For aircraft alone the list is long: He 177, Me 210/410, Hs 129, He 219, Me 262, Me 163, Ar 234 etc etc.

 

Germany was going to lose the war regardsless, but their attempts at staying ahead in the arms race by trying out all these new designs did them more harm than good.

[LukeFF]

Now the only thing we're missing is LukeFF and a dead horse.

 

Coming right up

 

[Wulf]

Problem is: You generally want to avoid introducing completely new equipment into service during a war if you possibly can, especially if the war is of WW2 proportions and you don’t have the luxury of having a safe home base on a different continent, like the US has had in most of its wars.

 

Introducing new equipment slows down production, requires retraining of troops/pilots and brings a heap of teething problems that have to be solved before full scale deployment and full combat effectiveness can be attained.

 

Look at the Soviet Union: During their war with Germany they only introduced one major new aircraft design into service (Tu-2) and one new tank design (T-70). Everything else was a modification of something that was already in production.

 

Germany on the other hand actually got into a bad habit of trying to introduce completely new advanced equipment, weapons and vehicles into large scale production in the middle of the war. Sometimes it worked out pretty well (like the Fw 190) but often it resulted in a mess during the transition period, even when the new design turned out to be great, as was the case with the Panther tank. And sometimes the whole thing just turned out to be a big, expensive dud, like the He 177 and God knows how many other designs that kinda made it into production (and thus held back production of tried-and-true designs) but never became available in sufficient numbers and failed to make any real impact on the war. For aircraft alone the list is long: He 177, Me 210/410, Hs 129, He 219, Me 262, Me 163, Ar 234 etc etc.

 

Germany was going to lose the war regardsless, but their attempts at staying ahead in the arms race by trying out all these new designs did them more harm than good.

 

 

This appears to be based on the assumption that German combat effectiveness could have been successfully maintained by a series of upgrades.  This just isn't the case.  A quick look at German tanks provides a classic case in point.  The Germans entered the war with a tank force that was, for the most part, either obsolete or very poorly designed.  The Mk 1 and 2 tanks were training vehicles essentially unsuited to combat.  The turret ring on the Mk 3 was too small to accommodate an effective main gun and the Mk 4 was both overly complex and poorly designed.  Without new designs, the Germans were essentially dead in the water.  The fact the Germans introduced new (better) designs wasn't in itself problematic. The problems they had stemmed from the weird peculiarities of the National Socialist systems of procurement and production.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Wulf

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

In terms of Game Development the Devs can push out 109 Variants about 3 times as quickly as creating new types. So it just makes sense Game-Wise. 

 

And terms of historicity, the Devs limited themselves to the most important Subtypes. I think the game actually needs more Subtypes for all Aircraft. 

 

I would love to see a series 3 LaGG-3 with it's 5 Gun Layout, and a late LaGG-3 with it's high Performance. Same for the Yaks as well. An early Yak-1 and Yak-7 mostly. 

The MiG should be split up as well, into an early and a later series, because there were a lot of Changes between the early and late model, changing characteristics quite severely. 

 

The Fw190A-3 unrightfully took the Place of the 110F, more powerful than the E, but lighter than the G, so a much more Fighter-Like 110 than the ones ingame right now. 

I also would love more Variants of the Ju-88 and He-111. Mostly a pre H-6 111 with 2 internal Bomb Bays, and a Ju-88C-6, with their heavy Forward Ordonance. 

 

Most importantly though: A Ju-87B and R, for Murmansk and Baltic. 

Add to that a later P-40, like the M which also served in large Numbers and a  P-40C, which was lighter and more nimble than the E by a long Shot. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Having new equipment being rushed into combat and show failures is nornal in war time. There was no difference with the german equipment and lets say the soviet IS1 or the M4 Sherman. The only difference is that allied equipment was easier to repair or at the very least more replaceable.

[Finkeren]

Having new equipment being rushed into combat and show failures is nornal in war time. There was no difference with the german equipment and lets say the soviet IS1 or the M4 Sherman. The only difference is that allied equipment was easier to repair or at the very least more replaceable.

Introducing new equipment into a war zone will always create problems, but there is a difference between making a transition to slightly altered or improved equipment, as the Soviet Union mostly did almost universally, and trying to press completely new designs into active service, as the Germans did time and time again.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Not really. With the introduction of the Yak in frontline service many issues with overheating and discripancies in build quality arose. At the same time the 109, which was developed as an improving platform, was mostly cured from it's technical issues and could go enter combat on the eastern front without greater troubles.

 

Military systems today only work as reliable because they have a long development phase in peace time (the Leopard 1 took a whole decade!). Else we'd still have those very same problems.

[Finkeren]

Not really. With the introduction of the Yak in frontline service many issues with overheating and discripancies in build quality arose. At the same time the 109, which was developed as an improving platform, was mostly cured from it's technical issues and could go enter combat on the eastern front without greater troubles.

 

Military systems today only work as reliable because they have a long development phase in peace time (the Leopard 1 took a whole decade!). Else we'd still have those very same problems.

I don’t disagree with a single word here, but it kinda support exactly the point I was trying to make. The main reason the introduction of the next gen. fighters of the VVS (Yak, LaGG and MiG) was so troublesome was exactly because they were planned to be introduced in peacetime, but the German assault came right as they were in that transitioning phase. The reason the Bf 109 had so few problems was exactly that it was developed in peace time and there was time to overcome teething problems and slowly ramp up mass production.

 

Luckily the USSR learned from that experience and mostly refrained from pressing new designs into service during the war delaying or giving up on some very promising designs in the process, where the Germans made the mistake (or felt forced to) sending new equipment to the front that was hardly ready for battle - at the expense of combat performance and production numbers.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Finkeren

[sniperton]

I think this whole issue was a consequence of the German war gamble. By 1942 it became pretty obvious that Germany cannot win by pure numbers and better organization/tactics. Already available equipment was not inferior to any Allied design, but could not be produced (and manned!) in large enough numbers to provide a clear numerical advantage to win the war. To some extent it was a rational decision to try to gain advantage the other way round, by rushing new, more advanced designs into production. Paradoxically, if Germany could have won the war, they would not have needed the Tiger and the Me-262.

[Finkeren]

The decission was perhaps rational, but that doesn’t mean it was the right decission.

 

The thing is, by early 1943 the very fact that Germany was still fighting the war was paradoxical and irrational. In any normal military conflict, Germany would have sued for peace by then.

 

Any German attempt at turning the war around had to rely on some miraculous event or magical new wonder-weapon, that any rational being would realize wasn’t going to materialize. Yet the German leadership for the most part either forced themselves to believe in miracles or they simply stopped thinking more than two steps ahead and kept themselves busy just running the war to its logical conclusion without thinking too much about the consequences.

 

Thatkind of mindset is what resulted in many designs, that were by themselves solid and promising (along with some nutty ones - I’m looking at you Me 163) entering large scale production and active service far too quickly, wasting ressources and manpower and holding back production numbers.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Finkeren