Identification in VR. Supersampling and AA influence. (sample images)

[chiliwili69]

One of the commented issues of the current first VR generation (Rift/Vive) is the resolution of the displays and therefore the difficulty to identify planes in the distance (we are not talking about spotting which is another topic not covered here).

For the same distance, a lower rendered resolution give us less information of the rendered scene, and therefore we need to be closer to get enough visual info to identify the plane.

 

I have recorded a short track where I was following a BF-109 G4 from a Spitfire, I started to record the scene when the plane was about 540 meters and the terrain landscape was as background of the plane (I wanted to see also how the plane could be fused with the landscape). When I run the recorded flight it stars in pause mode, so I make the screenshoot of the Oculus Mirror application which display a window of 1080x1200 which is just the resolution of the one eye of the Rift before applying lens distortion correction.

 

I tested several levels of super-sampling using SteamVR (1.0, 1.7, 2.9 and 4.0). This is equivalent to (1.0, 1.3, 1.7 and 2.0) in Oculus Tray Tool or Oculus debug Tool.

I also tested diferent levels of ingame Anti-Aliasing (x0, x2, x4).

Finally I also tested in monitor for Full HD and 4K (with no supersampling in graphic card).

 

I composed all this info in a matrix shown below:

 

The used setting were this:

 

The individual images are in this zip file (you can visualize them one after the other):

Pictures.zip

 

Comments about:

 

1.- Supersampling helps for better identification (we knew that). The influence is not as great as we could expect from the improvement we obtained in the cabin gauges ( https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/30771-how-much-ss-desirable-image-quality-samples/),but in principle we should use as much as SS our GPU could deliver without affecting the fps performance.  Note that a small increment in SS (for example from 1.7 to 2.0) will not give you a significant gain in identification but it could cost you a significant drop in fps. Every GPU can afford a level of SS, my 1070 is in 1.7.

 

2.- Regarding using AA in VR: Looking at the matrix from 2 meters in my 28" monitor I would say that it doesnt help in the identification it self, but it softens some edges. For this particular screencapture there is not a particular advantage in running x2 or x4. I was using x2 in the past since I tought that x4 was blurring all too much, but looking at this images maybe I will change to x4.

 

3.- Regarding monitor vs VR: The people who is using FullHD monitors are using a higher resolution (1920x1080) versus VR (1080x1200), but the details they get from the plane are very similar to the VR. So, I would say that people using FullHD monitor has no a competitive advantage over the VR people. When we move to 4K monitors then it is a different thing, they get much more details of the plane and they identify much better. That´s the reason why people who move from FullHD to Rift/Vive are quite OK regarding resolution, but people who move from 4K to VR notice a significant downgrade in visual details. 

 

Let´s see if the new Pimax 8K (resolution would be about 2.5K in monitor) or Pimax 8K X (resolution will be like 4K monitor) can improve id.

 

 

 

[TG-55Panthercules]

Interesting comparison - makes me glad I never made the jump to 4K monitor before trying VR.  Also makes me wish I could push SS to at least 2.9 (my rig hits a bit of a performace cliff above 2.3 or so).  One thing though - it doesn't seem to deal with the issue of zooming.  I have no way of knowing, but I suspect that a lot of people who talk about the ease or difficulty of identifying aircraft are using zoom to do so, and from the posts I've seen about zoom and VR it seems that there's a much better zoom capability in the game without VR than with VR.  I wonder how much of a factor that is in terms of people criticizing VR's ID ability compared to monitor?

[blitze]

For monitor setups, I think the 1440p is the sweet spot for playing upto 32Inches.  You get decent image quality which can be used with low aa and high frame rates which can be smooth when coupled with FreeSync/G-Sync.

 

1080p, yes seem similar in your shots to current VR.

 

It will be interesting to see what comes to the table next year, both in VR and in 4K monitors (hopefully breaking beyond the current 60Hz limitation).

[chiliwili69]

 

 

One thing though - it doesn't seem to deal with the issue of zooming.  I have no way of knowing, but I suspect that a lot of people who talk about the ease or difficulty of identifying aircraft are using zoom to do so, and from the posts I've seen about zoom and VR it seems that there's a much better zoom capability in the game without VR than with VR.  I wonder how much of a factor that is in terms of people criticizing VR's ID ability compared to monitor?

 

Yes, the above comparison was done for ID with no zooming, the initial purpose was just to compare SS and AA in VR only.

But I had curiosity to compare it with monitor and added the FullHD and 4K columns.

 

To properly compare the better ID for monitor vs VR with zoom I will need to do a another screenshoots. But maybe 540 meters is a very small distance for the zoom comparison. Perhaps 1Km for a BF-109.

[coconut]

Note that what you see on the mirror is not what you see in your Rift, especially when considering aliasing effects.

 

When looking at a picture on a flat screen, all pixels appear to have the same size to you (mostly). When looking in the HMD, pixels in the center appear smaller than pixels in the middle (because of the lenses).

To counter this, the game has to expand the center of the image, and compress the sides.

(image from https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/NickWhiting/20130611/194007/Integrating_the_Oculus_Rift_into_Unreal_Engine_4.php)

 

This in turns requires that the game produces an image with a resolution high enough that the expanded center does not appear blurry, and also to avoid the black borders (see image above). Because of this, the game generates an image that is actually a bit bigger than the 1080x1200 you see in the mirror.

The scaling down from whatever the game renders to 1080x1200 in the mirror is probably responsible for the visible anti-aliasing on the black shape of the plane.

Normally with SS=1.0 and no AA you should not have blurry sides. Each pixel should either be 100% from the plane, or 100% from the ground/sky.

If I'm right, there is an SS value less than 1 that should give you the same non-anti-aliased picture as the 1080p picture (except it's actually 1200p).

 

It does not really matter anyway, because the barrel transformation will reintroduce anti-aliasing anyway. I don't think you can get a sharp picture in an HMD because of this. You would need to the game to produce the barrel-distorted view directly, without going through a shader.

To make matters worse, pixels in the Rift are not square, and they share red and blue sub-pixels with neighbours. You can't really compare the end-result with a screen view.

Edited November 13, 2017 by coconut

[HunDread]

I'm not sure this kind of comparison can be done based on pure numbers.

 

You are watching the screen from 2-3 centimeters through magnifying glasses. This makes percieved resolution and SDE worse than what the numbers suggest.

 

I was playing Il-2 on Full HD before VR and I find identification considerably harder.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

What settings are you using Black Sab ?

 

I have noticed that the slightest amount of in-game AA will lead to a much harder time IDing. When you combine that with sharpen filter, spotting will be harder at distances of +6-7 km as well, or from 4km altitude against the ground.

 

Best running with SS 3.2 and AA 0 and sharpen 0 , landscape sharpen 1.

 

 

I ran with AA 4 and SS 1.7 the other day and for the first time in 5 weeks I shot a friendly. misIDed an La5 for a FW, sniping him at 500m.

Edited November 13, 2017 by 2./JG51_Fenris_Wolf

[HunDread]

Basically I am following your settings you advertized earlier on these forums. No AA, no sharpen filter, but landscape sharpen ON. I use 1.9 Steam VR SS.

 

These settings are good compared to what I used before in VR, but I remember that identification was still easier on Full HD (40"). 

 

But I don't see how it would be different. When someone swithes from a Full HD screen to RIFT or VIVE, there is no way that the first impression is that  - "OK, the resolution and the details I see are the same"

[ICDP]

I'm not trying to be pedantic but in order to get a much truer representation you would need to add a screen door effect (SDE).  Your images here and in the gauge test thread portray existing VR HMDs in a much better light than the reality.  SDE takes an already zoomed in pixelated mess and makes it even worse.

 

Even with max SS in my CV1 I cannot easily read most gauges in this sim without leaning in.

 

This images says zoom 8x but it isn't, this is very indicative of the SDE you see when you have a Vive or CV1 on your face.

Edited November 13, 2017 by ICDP

[TG-55Panthercules]

Even with max SS in my CV1 I cannot easily read most gauges in this sim without leaning in.

 

This surprises me - at SS=2.3 (SteamVR) I don't have any problem reading gauges in any of the planes I've tried with my Rift (admittedly, only 3 or 4 so far), and don't need to lean in to do it (only issue I have is with some of the gauges mounted out on the engines themselves, as in the Bf-110 E2.  But I agree with you that in general ID'ing seems to have been at least a little bit easier on my 1920x1080 monitor than with the Rift, for whatever reason.

[dburne]

This surprises me - at SS=2.3 (SteamVR) I don't have any problem reading gauges in any of the planes I've tried with my Rift (admittedly, only 3 or 4 so far), and don't need to lean in to do it (only issue I have is with some of the gauges mounted out on the engines themselves, as in the Bf-110 E2.  But I agree with you that in general ID'ing seems to have been at least a little bit easier on my 1920x1080 monitor than with the Rift, for whatever reason.

 

Yes same here, mainly fly the Yak-1 and the Spit, have no trouble reading their gauges at all. 

[doog442]

I lean in slightly to get the gauges crystal clear but they are readable. We are all different in the eyesight department and we are all operating at different specs.

 

This game has whipped my sorry ass in the graphics department since I happened upon it with a GeForce3 Ti 200 back in 2002/3.

 

VR has it all happening again and its like groundhog day  ...I now have a deeper pocket however

Edited November 13, 2017 by doog442

[ICDP]

The P-40 has a lot of smaller gauges with text and markings that are not clearly readable without leaning forward in VR.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

This is why a VR is a handicap in MP. No VR headset can compete with the following in terms of clarity, zoom levels/ease of tracking behind you and ability to ID.

 

[chiliwili69]

 

 

The scaling down from whatever the game renders to 1080x1200 in the mirror is probably responsible for the visible anti-aliasing on the black shape of the plane.

 

Yes, exactly that. When we use SS=1.0 the real render per eye is 1344x1600

 

Look at the tables mentioned here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/30436-pixel-density-supersampling-steamvr-oculustraytool-and-oculu/

 

That´s why the plane with AAx0 and ss=1.0 has blurred edges.

 

As I said in the OP the Oculus Mirror shows what it is sent to the display before applying the distortion introduced to be visualized with lenses at short distance.

 

Of course, those images don´t include SDE or other effects like pixel proportion, but they will they you the details which are captured and gives you and idea of the increased details with SS and how AA affects.

 

 

Black_Sab' timestamp='1510584843' post='531415'] I was playing Il-2 on Full HD before VR and I find identification considerably harder.

 

With or without zoom?

[chiliwili69]

Black_Sab' timestamp='1510589943' post='531443'] But I don't see how it would be different. When someone swithes from a Full HD screen to RIFT or VIVE, there is no way that the first impression is that  - "OK, the resolution and the details I see are the same"

 

Well, what I wanted to say is that the transition to VR is much easier from FullHD than 4K (an obvious thing).

 

In fact, Full HD with no SS is about 2M pixels and the rift display is just 1080x1200=1.3M pixels, so significantly less. In fact, if you compare above images the SS=1 and the FullHD, the FullHD is better.

 

People with Full HD and a good GPU can use SS in the GPU settings, so they will get even better. So, yes Rift is worse than FullHD, and much much worse than 4K.

Edited November 15, 2017 by chiliwili69

[HunDread]

 

With or without zoom?

 

This is a good question. I honestly don't know as I haven't checked the sim in 2d since VR was implemented. I was using zoom in 2d and I am using it in VR as well.

 

So it's rather my overall feeling that identification is considerably harder in VR.

 

And my squad mates are calling out plane types when I'm just starting to see if it's a bomber or fighter. I may be exaggerating a bit here but this is how I feel it.

 

A better implementation for VR zoom could probably get the VR identification capabilities on par with Full HD id-ing.

[Nibbio]

A better implementation for VR zoom could probably get the VR identification capabilities on par with Full HD id-ing.

 

This

[dburne]

 

 

A better implementation for VR zoom could probably get the VR identification capabilities on par with Full HD id-ing.

 

Probably not much due to the current resolution.

Better resolution will help immensely with being able to ID a target.

[HunDread]

Probably not much due to the current resolution.

Better resolution will help immensely with being able to ID a target.

 

It's true that the resolution will help.

 

But better zoom would help the current devices. I mean If you fly closer to the opponent plane, you are able to identify it. If the zoom took it closer you would be equally able to identify it. I know it's not that simple from development point of view as they would also need to make sure not to overdo this to avoid a cheating-like option. But any kind of enhancement helping ID-ing in current devices would be welcome. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by -[HRAF]Black_Sab

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I agree 100%

 

Can we make a thread in suggestions, and get people to post there? Or write up a post/PM for Jason, he's calling the shots.

 

I believe such a change may be trivial to the developers, but improve the VR experience big time.

Edited November 18, 2017 by 2./JG51_Fenris_Wolf

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I'd pay for a zoom increase.

 

As I'm sure most VR sp and mp people would too.

[HunDread]

I agree 100%

 

Can we make a thread in suggestions, and get people to post there? Or write up a post/PM for Jason, he's calling the shots.

 

I believe such a change may be trivial to the developers, but improve the VR experience big time.

This one is in the suggestions.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32163-suggestion-better-zoom-vr/