Pe 2 stronk

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Better not to attack Pe-2 if you want to stay alive, just hartmann at 7k

 

... or just ram it, It will in most cases shoot you down anyway

 

happy landings...

 

Veccu

Well I still attack pe2s but I need to be smart and cautious. It could take much time if Pe2 driver knows how to make you job uneasy and as I'm trying I'm vulnerable. Anyway I have quite good success rate against Pe2s.

[=RvE=Windmills]

The premise is that the German side loses because it plays badly!

 

You actually believe that Germans tend to run as many ground attackers as the Russians, and that their fighters often fly low enough to effectively protect their targets or attackers?

 

 

 

 

The real problem is that many think that there isn't problem, that the things done are just so!

They know only say that we are the usual luftwhiner, the usual whiners etc. etc.

After all we can't ask a blind man to see!

 

Maybe if you'd provide some actual testing I'd be inclined to believe some of the stuff you post. Whether or not Pe2 gunners have a forcefield should be easy enough to test, whether the 109 has a much easier time shooting down an 88/111 sounds trivial as well.

 

Seeing how even 37mm HE struggles with bombers I am way more strongly leaning to HE ammo being the issue here.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Windmills

[LLv24_Veccu_VR]

Well I still attack pe2s but I need to be smart and cautious. It could take much time if Pe2 driver knows how to make you job uneasy and as I'm trying I'm vulnerable. Anyway I have quite good success rate against Pe2s.

 

It takes time to be "smart and cautious" . During that 10 min when you are "smart and cautious" there is a high risk of being shot down by CAP enemy fighters. Historically, based what I have red, Finn bf 109´s usually attacked in one pass  before covering dozens of La´s and Lagg´s came to the scene and after shooting they just disengaged from the area and tehy managed to shoot down PE´s easely. According to Finns Pe-2 was quite vulnerable and easy to shoot down but IL-2 was not. It was a flying tank that has to be aimed in one weak squaremeter area on its wings or to the radiator below to get it down with machineguns. With 3 x 20mm it was a different story.

 

And by the way 17 Pe-2 ´s were shot down in continuation war (WW2) by LLv24 Brewsters. Brewster had 4 x 12,7 mm machineguns on its wings... And not a single loss caused by enemy bombers..

 

https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_Lentolaivue_24:n_ilmavoitoista_ja_sotatoimitappioista

 

-veccu-

Edited November 9, 2017 by LLv24_Veccu

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

It takes time to be "smart and cautious" . During that 10 min when you are "smart and cautious" there is a high risk of being shot down by CAP enemy fighters. Historically, based what I have red, Finn bf 109´s usually attacked in one pass before covering dozens of La´s and Lagg´s came to the scene and after shooting they just disengaged from the area and tehy managed to shoot down PE´s easely. According to Finns Pe-2 was quite vulnerable and easy to shoot down but IL-2 was not. It was a flying tank that has to be aimed in one weak squaremeter area on its wings or to the radiator below to get it down with machineguns. With 3 x 20mm it was a different story.

Exactly high risk job no guts no glory

[LLv24_Veccu_VR]

This Pe-2 landed, white and black smoke and they limp home...

 

https://youtu.be/uP4lvu98ZLM?t=3m17s

 

-veccu-

Edited November 9, 2017 by LLv24_Veccu

[LLv24_Zami]

I'm not saying anything about balance of MP or other s*** like that, it's not the point here.

 

But that Pe-2 in OP video should have gone down way earlier, that is crystal clear for anyone with working eye vision.

 

Game is awesome, best there is imo. Devs do a great job with resources they have. But it's not perfect, nothing ever is. Theres always something weird found when people play a lot. This looks something that might be worth looked into when there is time and resources available.

 

But in the end, it's just a complex game. It will never be 100% equivalent to the real WW2.

[BraveSirRobin]

All reds say this, but they keep flying red

 

Usually because the sides are completely stacked with people flying German. I’d like to fly German more, but I can’t unless I want to stack the sides even worse. That isn’t a problem for some people. Often those same people come to the forum and cry about how unfair the game is for the German side.

[56RAF_Roblex]

It is all down to perspective.   I fly mostly Red so I cannot comment on hard it is for *me* to shoot down a PE2  but I can say that when I fly a PE2 and get attacked by a single 109 I die...every time.   If I am escorting two PE2s and go after an attacking 109 but there is another I did not know about then most of the time he will kill both those PE2 before I get back.   Add to that the fact that I have never managed to kill a JU88 in a single pass and have frequently seen them fly away streaming fluids & smoke from four different places.   I could start filming my failed JU88 attacks and my inevitable PE2 deaths and post them here but everyone will just say 'Your PE2 was unlucky and your Ju88 that flew away was lucky.' and nothing would be proved either way because such a video is meaningless.

 

If you want to show that PE2s are too strong and JU88s are too weak then do a proper test and show Jason the results.  If you are right then Jason will investigate.  Meanwhile anecdotal evidence, from either side of the argument, is meaningless and just causes arguments.

[=RvE=Windmills]

So after shooting down about 40 Pe2s and some 40 ju88 with a 109G2 I really can't see that much of a difference. The 88 seems marginally more vulnerable but that's about it. Killing crewmembers is hard unless you score direct hits with AP rounds, doesn't seem any difference between the 88 and PE in this regard.

 

Honestly, take away from this is that you always want to attack with deflection, straight six attacks it is much harder to do much damage to bombers.

 

Mostly though, single 20mm is not ideal for killing bombers. Adding the gunpods absolutely shredded both Pe2 and 88 in a single pass regardless if it was straight 6 or deflection.

 

Anyone gets different results when doing this?

[ITAF_Cymao]

We are waiting for a video where a Ju88 or a H111 is hit by a hundred shots,, with the crew still alive, and that makes two airkills...
If it is normal for you, I don't think it's hard to make a similar video.

 

S!

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

Adding the gunpods absolutely shredded both Pe2 and 88 in a single pass

 

The gun pods are fitted with more AP rounds than the motor cannon. 

Gunpods - AP/HE/AP/HE

Motorcannon - HE/AP/HE/HE/AP/HE

[BraveSirRobin]

Will be waiting for you on the axis side when teams are balanced

 

You’ll be waiting on the axis side whether the teams are balanced or not.

[curiousGamblerr]

You’ll be waiting on the axis side whether the teams are balanced or not.

 

I just lost it at work and got some looks     

[=RvE=Windmills]

We are waiting for a video where a Ju88 or a H111 is hit by a hundred shots,, with the crew still alive, and that makes two airkills...

If it is normal for you, I don't think it's hard to make a similar video.

 

S!

 

 

These are 2 completely different things, and it is completely arbitrary. Do you understand that at least? The guy in the video got crazy lucky, for the longest time his engines did not even smoke.

 

Pe2 has a much better gun than Ju88 and is a much more difficult target than 111. I've had 1 or 2 Ju88s take 3+ passes to go down with critical damage, it's the exception not the rule. Does that prove anything to you?

 

Really, if you want to pretend you're not just doing the standard luftie thing maybe test it out yourself?

Edited November 9, 2017 by Windmills

[Retnek]

... The main issue I kept running into over and over was the complete lack of escort and protection from fighters over the targets. Even when calling in attacks it was just impossible to get any protection most of the time.

 

If Germans would play the objective and protect their attackers there'd be no issues. You also see that as soon as a capable group of attackers go Germans they generally do just fine and have a good chance of winning. When that group is not there they mostly lose. Few individuals feel like bashing their heads into a wall while their protection is all pulling contrails near the enemy air bases.

 

Well put - there are only a few fighter pilots caring for escort jobs. One can call them via chat and they will cover. IMHO for the Blue side it's below 20% of the fighters online. The escort morale at the Red side is better usually. Flying outnumbered all time might help to develop a sense for common duties.

  Anyhow - a lot of fighter jockeys just know one tactic: hanging around high above places they expect the next prey coming along. Nothing to complain about this on a pure dogfight server - enjoy yourself, there are some servers of that kind. Servers with a scenario and objectives expect a bit more. Don't ask, what this server is offering for you, ask what you're offering for the server.

 

  I don't expect that kind of ego-fighters to engage here in the forums. So dear (mainly) fighter pilots discussing here, stay cool or calm down, please. I'm not intending a general assault against all and any fighter pilots. But those ego-fighters from both sides are the main reason for a lot of bomber-pilots to avoid the well populated servers. Except the days you feel the need to pilot a target drone yourself.

 

  I've had the pleasure to fly in bomber formations protected by competent escorts quite often (IL2-CoD esp. JG 4 ) - magic online moments. At Friday Night Bomber Flight it's done, too. That's MUCH MORE fun than fighters hanging up high solo and bombers sneaking through at tree-top-level. Just one little problem - how to come together on an average multiplayer-evening? No extra preparation, just by doing - what?

[curiousGamblerr]

To be fair, escorting is far more difficult in German fighters, in my experience. The greater need to alt/energy advantage requires you to fly further above your bombers, which makes them difficult to keep an eye on consistently.

 

On the other hand, escorting Pe2s in the I-16, I flutter about their formation, keeping my head on a swivel and better able to turn into an attack and deter it despite my lower energy state. Sure, I can't actually kill a properly flown 109, because he should attack with too much energy for me to follow, but I can attack him on each pass and ruin his shot and maybe get some lucky hits that make him turn towards home. And more often than not, the 109 gets greedy, and the kill is more easily achieved.

 

Trying the same in a 109, a Russian plane attacking your bombers with more energy is just going to kill your slow 109 and then move on to your bombers (one exception might be an E7, because of the better dogfighting capabilities, but for later 109s I think this is accurate).

[=RvE=Windmills]

Are we actually going to have an argument that what is generally the highest performing fighter cannot actually do escort missions?

 

Escorting is not about flying same speed next to the attackers. It's sweeping the approaches and then just sticking within immediate response range of the target while attackers do their thing. You can fly as fast as you want, you just need to stay nearby. Does it leave you more vulnerable than doing a free hunt and only attacking people that don't see you? Sure but that's kinda defeating the point though.

 

It's crazy to suggest that the 109 would be worse at escorting than much lower performing fighters.

[curiousGamblerr]

It's honestly not about the 109 itself- it's about spotting. And it's not an argument, I'm just describing my experience. I also never said the 109 was incapable, just that it was more difficult, again, in my experience (if you want to both protect your bombers and survive yourself).

 

Maintaining eyes on your bombers is more difficult flying the wider escort pattern required to stay alive in the 109, and when I inevitably miss an attacker and get a call for help from my bombers, the time required to reacquire them often leads to them getting killed in the meantime. I have much more success escorting with something that can survive and fight half decently while flying closer to the bombers. I would take an I-16 over any 109 for an escort any day, in this game, so long as the I-16 can keep up.

 

Another factor is the smaller bomber formations- if your bombers get attacked and even touched, and e.g. two of three planes is leaking or something, the mission is pretty much a total loss for the non-suicidal player. In real life, a bigger formation could protect itself better, and the mission would be worth continuing with a couple planes lost. This bit is my intuition and not necessarily based on specific factual information.

[56RAF_Roblex]

To be fair, escorting is far more difficult in German fighters, in my experience. The greater need to alt/energy advantage requires you to fly further above your bombers, which makes them difficult to keep an eye on consistently.

 

On the other hand, escorting Pe2s in the I-16, I flutter about their formation, keeping my head on a swivel and better able to turn into an attack and deter it despite my lower energy state. Sure, I can't actually kill a properly flown 109, because he should attack with too much energy for me to follow, but I can attack him on each pass and ruin his shot and maybe get some lucky hits that make him turn towards home. And more often than not, the 109 gets greedy, and the kill is more easily achieved.

 

Trying the same in a 109, a Russian plane attacking your bombers with more energy is just going to kill your slow 109 and then move on to your bombers (one exception might be an E7, because of the better dogfighting capabilities, but for later 109s I think this is accurate).

 

Sorry but I really don't understand the logic here.   Both the 190, & the 109 are superb boom & zoomers and 'fluttering about' in a I-16 will not stop that.  No disrespect to to you CG if you have found that sometimes you can put them off a bit but for the most part they they are in full control of the fight because they can come down at incredible speed, shoot then climb back like a rocket to do it again whenever they feel you are most out of position.    You will get no argument from me that a low and slow 109 will struggle to stop a diving Mig or La-5 but exactly the same and more applies when the 109 is high and the Mig or La-5 or Yak or Lagg is low & slow.  The reason I say '...and more' is that although there are some soviet fighters that can match the diving abilities of the 190 & 109,  they cannot climb as fast after the dive so the more often they dive the more they lose E and become vulnerable. They are all 'Boom' and no 'Zoom' :-) 

I cannot agree with "The greater need to alt/energy advantage requires you to fly further above your bombers, which makes them difficult to keep an eye on consistently."  either as something like a mig is useless unless it flies high and dives with lots of E and that is all it can do; hope to do some damage in one fast pass then run away because it cannot turnfight without losing all its E advantage. Same applies to P40,  La-5, Lagg; they bleed E at a terrible rate

 

TL:DR Version:-  Yes the 109 needs to fly above the bombers and that leads to trouble keeping an eye on them but not a 'Greater need' than the Red fighters.  Yes it is more difficult to escort bombers in a 109 than to hunt enemy fighters on your own but again that applies equally to both sides.

Edited November 9, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[=RvE=Windmills]

You can stay fast but chances are you do one to three bounces where the enemy breaks early and you dont follow because its suicide. By then the russians down your bomber crew in 1-2 passes per bomber as you run from an unseen Russian who decided to bounce you instead.

 

You do 3 attacks on a fighter 1 that is fully focussed on dodging you, then fighter 2 shoots down your bomber, then fighter 3 comes in unseen and chases you off.

 

You had to make scenario where you are in a 1v3 in order to make it sound hard? Sounds like a fight you should lose to me.

 

 

 

 

It's honestly not about the 109 itself- it's about spotting.

 

This is just something you need to practice, attackers are generally large and easy to see. Sitting in among the attackers at low speed is asking to be the first to go down so they can have an easy time with the attackers. If I see an escort 2000m below me in a antique plane I'll just ignore him and shoot the attacker, what's he going to do about that?

Edited November 9, 2017 by Windmills

[=RvE=Windmills]

So again, there's 3 fighters vs you and an attacker. You want to convince me that your side is supposed to come out ahead here?

 

Maybe what you want to say is 'if there was no bomber I could just attack and run/climb away if I lose the advantage so there's 0% risk' then sure.

 

Sometimes you have to fight in order to secure/protect an area, that's the whole point behind objectives based gameplay. You can't always decide to decline fights or surrender ground. I suppose that's hard to accept if k/d is god and the free hunt is life, but you see how that is kinda the reason Germany has a problem in winning games? Maybe this is just a more natural thing to accept for red players? Because the ability to decline fights is usually not there?

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

After that you move on to a better target.

 

I totally missed this part of your post. Yes, this is exactly the problem I'm talking about. You want to decline fights when you don't have the advantage of suprise and just move on to one where you do. That's exactly the issue why you are losing objective based gameplay.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Windmills

[=RvE=Windmills]

The point being that playing it 'smart' isn't winning you the game here, nor is it much consolation for that smoking crater in the ground that used to be your ground striker. 

[BraveSirRobin]

I’m always amused when the people in the fastest, best climbing, and best diving aircraft try to argue that they’re at a disadvantage.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I’m always amused when the people in the fastest, best climbing, and best diving aircraft try to argue that they’re at a disadvantage.

 

Despite the fairly evident issue with the Pe-2's DM, I agree that the incessant Luftwhining is incredibly tiresome albeit humorous.

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm excited to see you lead by example when the teams are balanced of course

 

I always join the side with fewer players and I’m usually one of the first to switch sides when it gets stacked. That means I fly VVS a lot. However, I may start stacking the German side if it keeps you out of the server. Just kidding. You’ll fly German anyways.

[BraveSirRobin]

Despite the fairly evident issue with the Pe-2's DM, I agree that the incessant Luftwhining is incredibly tiresome albeit humorous.

I think the Pe2 might be a little too rugged, but I’m torn. On the one hand I’d like it as reastic as possible. On the other hand I love that it seems to upset the German only people the most, while the rest of us just deal with it.

Oh man is this one noob really ruining it that bad for you with his luftwhining?

 

Not at all. I’d rather fly the Uber planes. And if that keeps you and your chat spamming off the server, it’s a win/win.

[BraveSirRobin]

Don't forget to record! 

 

A noob like me needs to learn from the best

 

What are you talking about?

[=RvE=Windmills]

Winning me the game? What does that even mean. I'm not happy with where I'm at, sure, but are we going to make this a stats war? That's BraveSirRobin's territory, not mine 

 

Well if you want to airquake 24/7 sure, then we have nothing left to talk about. I sometimes make the silly assumption that having ground targets and ground strikers being part of the game makes things a lot more interesting. Especially when both sides try to win a game such as in WoL.

[curiousGamblerr]

Sorry but I really don't understand the logic here. Both the 190, & the 109 are superb boom & zoomers and 'fluttering about' in a I-16 will not stop that. No disrespect to to you CG if you have found that sometimes you can put them off a bit but for the most part they they are in full control of the fight because they can come down at incredible speed, shoot then climb back like a rocket to do it again whenever they feel you are most out of position. You will get no argument from me that a low and slow 109 will struggle to stop a diving Mig or La-5 but exactly the same and more applies when the 109 is high and the Mig or La-5 or Yak or Lagg is low & slow. The reason I say '...and more' is that although there are some soviet fighters that can match the diving abilities of the 190 & 109, they cannot climb as fast after the dive so the more often they dive the more they lose E and become vulnerable. They are all 'Boom' and no 'Zoom' :-)

I cannot agree with "The greater need to alt/energy advantage requires you to fly further above your bombers, which makes them difficult to keep an eye on consistently." either as something like a mig is useless unless it flies high and dives with lots of E and that is all it can do; hope to do some damage in one fast pass then run away because it cannot turnfight without losing all its E advantage. Same applies to P40, La-5, Lagg; they bleed E at a terrible rate

 

TL:DR Version:- Yes the 109 needs to fly above the bombers and that leads to trouble keeping an eye on them but not a 'Greater need' than the Red fighters. Yes it is more difficult to escort bombers in a 109 than to hunt enemy fighters on your own but again that applies equally to both sides.

Thanks for the reply Roblex- honestly I think you're right and my perspective is skewed by flying waaay too much I-16. It's really a different beast than the other fighters in game, but takes up at least half my flight time lately so I think my perspective is skewed and only gets worse as I get better with the Ishak and thus think the Ishak itself is better, ya know?

 

In general, I think escorting is one of the most difficult tasks in this game- especially in MP when the guy you're protecting is screaming and dying and you're full power but just can't get there in time to save him. Feels bad, man.

[BraveSirRobin]

Was simply curious to see how you fly firsthand, not a big deal take that with a grain of salt

I’m usually chasing 109s or 190s that I know I have no chance of catching. There isn’t a lot of technique involved.

[=RvE=Windmills]

Well said.

 

And if blue want to win more maps on WoL, maybe try not chasing a smoking and damaged pe2 that has dropped it's bombs on the target already*, all the way away from the target and halfway across the map in a trail of angry fighters each trying to nab that precious kill, whilst other indestructible pe2s are merrily heading in to the target. The pe2 will go down, someone will most likely get the kill, just be patient and go attack something that is a threat.

 

* I'm not talking about that indestructible one in the video that clearly still has a bomb load; just the common experience of what happens when you fly a pe2.

 

 

I always find it somewhat shocking to get bounced on a return journey, especially when the guy catches some defensive fire for his trouble. I suppose a kill is a kill but man.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

@windmills

Next time leave your lights on so we know you are on your way home!

 

Thanks!

Edited November 10, 2017 by II/JG17_SchwarzeDreizehn

[CUJO_1970]

Sure, as soon as you post some evidence of comparative testing with similar aircraft you get my vote. The problem is that it's so much easier to cry imbalance than it is to do some actual legwork and see if there actually is any inconsistency. The fact that it is the same people ranting only ever about one particular side being treated unfairly really doesn't help your case.

 

You can keep posting your anecdotal evidence and being smug about this, but you really need more than that.

 

Maybe learn how to use the complimentary search function that came equipped with this web site before demanding that someone do "actual legwork".

[Leon_Portier]

The Pe is easy to shoot down. I go down all the time with it

[=RvE=Windmills]

@windmills

Next time leave your lights on so we know you are on your way home!

 

Thanks!

 

 

Having so little awareness of target and airbase locations that you can't figure this out yourself. Protip: loaded bombers go from airfield to target, empty ones the other way around.

 

By all means though, keep throwing yourself into returning bomber gunners when the only thing it does is hurt your own team in 3 different ways. The Soviet WoL victory rate loves people like you. 

Maybe learn how to use the complimentary search function that came equipped with this web site before demanding that someone do "actual legwork".

 

Are you referring to the handful of random videos floating around as evidence? 

[curiousGamblerr]

Having so little awareness of target and airbase locations that you can't figure this out yourself. Protip: loaded bombers go from airfield to target, empty ones the other way around.

 

By all means though, keep throwing yourself into returning bomber gunners when the only thing it does is hurt your own team in 3 different ways. The Soviet WoL victory rate loves people like you.

 

...

As we say on reddit...

 

WHOOOOOSH

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

:D Wooosh with lights on!

[Holtzauge]

A bit late to the party but that vid in the OP was funny to watch: Calling the Pe 2 stronk seems like a bit of an understatement and reminds me of this Monty Python sketch.

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

I wonder why you're playing on this server

 

Because it breaks up the monotony of being a full time cat herder.

 

[III./ZG1_LoHan]

Normal radio talk during ZG1 mission on TAW or Random Expert ......

 

"Peshka Pe2, 10 o´clock low...... who wants attack?"

 

"No!"  

 

"No!"

 

"No!"

 

"No No!"

 

"Na!"

 

"Nee!"