Strafing tips

[Rjel]

I'd say take the 4 gun version with additional ammo. You have more than 50 seconds of fire and with a high convergence you can fire from quite far away. You want to be rather steady on you strafing run, dont pull in on the last second. If you want to strafe whole column from behind then start with a steeper (but still shallow) angle and start firing early while pulling up in the same time so in the end you fly almost horizontal before you pull away to reposition.

 

I usuall prefer the single target method, especially when there is flak around. As others have said before: After the attack really take the time to gain speed and altitude again before going in again.

But then you're kind of gaming the game aren't you? I think most U.S. fighters' guns were maxed at about 300 yards convergence for air combat. Ground missions were secondary, at least in the 8thAF in Europe. Maybe it was different in the 9thAF where most of their missions were ground pounding. It was found most pilots misjudged their target's distance by a factor of two. Sometimes more. I thinks that's why in ground attack guncam you will often see the tracers criss crossing each other. Maybe if the missions were mostly ground attack the guns were adjusted accordingly but I sorta doubt. It was a pretty time consuming job.

[CUJO_1970]

1. 30 degree dive angle. Steep dives will send you into the ground or clip a treetop and crash.

2. Know what convergence your weapons are set at and learn to fire at the appropriate time, firing low to begin with.

3. Let the nose settle before you fire. Trying to fight the nose bouncing around will spoil your solution and waste your ammo.

 

My recommendation is to practice on trains, attacking in line with the train from front to back, aiming at the ground a little in front of the engine and walk your rounds right down the following cars.

 

The FW-190 with the outboard cannons is especially effective at destroying everything but T-34. 6-cannon version simply vaporizes everything else in it's path.

[19//Moach]

strafing isn't hard... until someone's shooting at you, at least

 

 

easiest of all are trains and trucks, they need only the slightest "encouragement" and promptly explode in a puff of submissive cooperation.   Tanks are harder.

 

 

 

So let's skip to Tanks, which by definition, are very hard.

 

 

what you wanna do, is find your target first, then go in for the kill.

 

The key is the approach. Which is why you need patience and most important of all: nobody shooting at you.

 

 

select your target, then decide on an angle to attack it.  be strongly decisive here, half-actions and poor planning often lead to craters.

 

 

fly around wide to start your approach from a good distance.  you need at least some 500 meters straight running, plus a few hundred more to straighten out into it.

 

 

With the IL2, you wanna get in slow.  the slower the approach, the more time you have to pull aim on target.  Start your final approach at no more than 300km/h, power back on the way down.

 

Set your convergence to 300m for tanks.  400 for other stuff.  I prefer the 37mm for hard armor, the 23 works as well, but takes more ammo to do the same. Use full AP (blue) when firing on tanks, else half your rounds will be wasted

 

 

Come in at a 30 nose down angle, power off and wings level.  Elevator trim to nose up, close to neutral preferably (between 0 and 25%)  - this should steady your aim at lower airspeeds

 

 

Put the sights on target, and squeeze the trigger, don't pull it.  This will help a lot in staying your aim against flinching.  

 

 

Now, the important part:  You gotta be a bit "Jedi" about this.  Do NOT push in for an explosion.  You must take your shot, and pull away, regardless of result.  If it explodes in front of you, congrats, but you can't stay to enjoy the show, you gotta remember the big thing that makes a good strafer:

 

And that is something very simple, which can be put into two small words, easily remembered:     Pull Up.

 

 

 

 

He who shoots, misses and pulls out of the dive gets to live long enough to try again. 

 

He who insists on making the shot work the first time, often does not get to do it a second time.

 

 

 

You should never fly lower than the target you're strafing.    Unless the target is on a steep hill, but even so, you shouldn't be facing towards it then... If it's on the crest of a hill, perhaps, but that's exceedingly rare

[[TWB]80hd]

That's terrible advice, even for a 1G comfy chair fighter pilot. 

 

No, this is in fact excellent advice, and I didn't come up with it on my own, it was given to me by those much more sage than I... when employed properly it allows relative novices to hit ground targets and still pull out without dying... many 109 pilots set it the same way, though often for instantaneous turn effect.

 

I don't personally use the setting anymore, but for a new stick dealing with compression and target fixation while strafing, it saves virtual lives.

 

Feel free to expound beyond "terrible advice" if you feel you have an actual argument.

[Dakpilot]

It all depends whether you want to fly virtually as an aviator or as a driver.. Learn good habits early, fly trimmed correctly and fly the aircraft yourself,don't let it fly you.. target fixation is a thing indeed, but learn skills to avoid it rather than 'gamey' trim settings

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[[TWB]80hd]

It all depends whether you want to fly virtually as an aviator or as a driver.. Learn good habits early, fly trimmed correctly and fly the aircraft yourself,don't let it fly you.. target fixation is a thing indeed, but learn skills to avoid it rather than 'gamey' trim settings

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Trim is a tool to be manipulated as the situation dictates... are auto-pull out mechanisms on divebombers okay?

 

As far as gamey goes, if ultra-realism is ones only desire, I would caution against strafing at all since putting a handful of MG rounds into a truck will cause it to explode in an incredibly immersion-breaking crisis for the true simmer.

Edited November 8, 2017 by [TWB]80hd

[Dakpilot]

Trim is a tool to be manipulated as the situation dictates... are auto-pull out mechanisms on divebombers okay?

 

As far as gamey goes, if ultra-realism is ones only desire, I would caution against strafing at all since putting a handful of MG rounds into a truck will cause it to explode in an incredibly immersion-breaking crisis for the true simmer.

 

 

 

OP:  Roughly related here, but with Rockets....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIkQdQU_Rlw

Well auto pull out systems on dive bombers were designed to help pilots with surviving G blackouts and for efficiency.

Trim is for relieving control forces so you can fly accurately so your inputs are not fighting the aircraft.

My flight instructor (Mirage pilot with combat experience ) would give me a klup on the back of the head if he suspected I was flying out of trim, and asked me to take my hands off the stick, if the aircraft then deviated from the desired flight path due to incorrect trim.. Smack!

You get the best performance and best accuracy when trimmed correctly, simple as that getting the basics right works Irl and in the game/sim

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[busdriver]

No, this is in fact excellent advice, and I didn't come up with it on my own, it was given to me by those much more sage than I... when employed properly it allows relative novices to hit ground targets and still pull out without dying... many 109 pilots set it the same way, though often for instantaneous turn effect.

 

I don't personally use the setting anymore, but for a new stick dealing with compression and target fixation while strafing, it saves virtual lives.

 

Feel free to expound beyond "terrible advice" if you feel you have an actual argument.

 

I dropped real bombs and actually strafed (the rag). Of course your 1G comfy chair fighter pilot expertise is different.   

 

Edit: I didn't mean to convey any hint of snark, sarcasm or ridicule. Perhaps a more formal explanation would clarify. As Dakpilot has explained, having the airplane properly trimmed for the desired flight condition is a basic skill of all RL pilots.

 

Patrick asked for strafing tips. Since I graduated from an AF formal training program that included strafing, I added some remarks (found on the first page above your advice) that folks that strafe in RL use.  When pointing the nose of an airplane at the ground to deliver ordnance requires "some" nose down trim to prevent the result of your technique, the "banana" pass. If your only desire is to allow gravity to control the point of impact, then your technique works. If you desire to have greater control over the point of impact, then trim nose down. The steeper the pass, the more nose down trim is required. Why? Because the airplane will accelerate more rapidly in a steeper pass. Having to push forward on the stick to keep the pipper on the target means you have the airplane out of trim.

 

Your "gaming" technique works because you are sitting at 1g in front of a monitor. If players can't strafe without hitting the ground (or in my case the trees), they simply need to practice proper RL strafing techniques and pull off target sooner. RL techniques are easy to learn, easy to practice. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by busdriver

[[TWB]80hd]

I dropped real bombs and actually strafed (the rag). Of course your 1G comfy chair fighter pilot expertise is different.    

 

My apologies sir, I honestly had no idea we had a bonafide World War 2 combat vet on the rolls!!

 

That still doesn't expound upon your vague assertion, but I see you're still quite feisty with the passive aggressive insults that all of you forum veterans excel at, which I will take to mean that you're in good health!

Thank you for your service, good luck in single player

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I onced "strafed" a Club Member who was Photographing us from a Ditch, on our approaches, at the beginning of the Landing Strip. He wasn't amused, and I have never seen someone's eyes grow so big and take cover so quickly. 

[Dakpilot]

All opinions are useful, there is always something to learn

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[[TWB]80hd]

"

The P-51's quirk that could catch the uprepared service pilot by surprisewas that as airspeed built up over 450 mph, the plane would start to getvery nose heavy.  It needed to be trimmed tail heavy before the dive ifspeeds over 400 mph were anticipated.  "

"

 his P-38 would start to vibrate, then startbucking like a rodeo bronco, the control column would begin flail back andforth so forcefully it would probably be ripped out of his hands and beginpounding him to crap.  Once the plane dropped down to lower altitude wherethe speed of sound was higher, the buffeting declined and the trim tabcould be used to haul the airplane out of what seemed to be a death dive.Recovery with trim tab resulted in 5 g pull-out."

Now, granted, these guys certainly didn't have air-conditioned cockpits and CCRP bombsights or 5-star meals in the chow hall, but I think they had a handle on flying... at least planes similar to those in this game....

 

Little bit of nose-high trim to assist on pull-out... try it, till you get the hang of it.  Or, crash into trees until you get the hang of it... if you're flying on TAW, you're probably gonna want to not die, if at all possible.

[AndyJWest]

Are you seriously suggesting that P-51s conducted strafing attacks at 450 mph IAS?

[Nibbio]

That IS fast! 1000m in 5 seconds fast!

 

Well, I guess when people are shooting at you 5 seconds last an eternity...

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Haven't played this game is 6 months but i regularly carried 70 to 90 hit percent when strafing. Practice has alot to do with it. Also everyone knows that you want a neutral stick when aiming at anything. If your not "practiced" enough to pull out then maybe trim will save your life, but your aim will suffer greatly.

 

Looking forward to Pacific.

[busdriver]

"

The P-51's quirk that could catch the uprepared service pilot by surprisewas that as airspeed built up over 450 mph, the plane would start to getvery nose heavy.  It needed to be trimmed tail heavy before the dive ifspeeds over 400 mph were anticipated.  "

"

 his P-38 would start to vibrate, then startbucking like a rodeo bronco, the control column would begin flail back andforth so forcefully it would probably be ripped out of his hands and beginpounding him to crap... 

 

You know this is pretty easy. Regarding the P-51 quote, I hope you would agree that "the plane would start to get very nose heavy," is a figure of speech not an actual physical change in the weight and balance of the airplane. The faster it accelerated the greater the aerodynamic principle of compressibility was manifested. Compressibility was a relatively unknown phenomena. Had the Mustang been able to accelerate to over 400 mph in a thirty degree climb the author of the quote would (and I'm speculating to be sure) probably have described it as "the plane would start to get very tail heavy."

 

The description of the the yoke flailing around is because in the speed range where compressibility effects are felt, the burbling air flow across the wing (fuselage) rapidly changes the local air from suction to positive pressure. So this notion that nose up trim is the solution, perhaps misses the point. Sure, the nose is pointed at the ground so you want to avoid hitting the ground. We agree. We apparently differ on a logical entry altitude and nominal entry airspeed. I never achieve an airspeed close to 700 km/h when strafing or bombing. 

 

RL pilots know that "trim is your friend." This sim is great fun, but it is unable to replicate the physical fatigue a pilot feels (in his hand, wrist, and arm) from flying out of trim.  Having the airplane trimmed up for the condition of flight reduces that fatigue. No, carpal tunnel or post gaming session isometric induced stiffness is not the same. 

 

How does this pertain to providing tips on strafing? Without quoting my initial advice, I suggest fairly consistent starting parameters. I have the thrust set at the Combat Power range, and I use less than a 30 degree dive (closer to 10-15 degrees) from a nominal entry altitude of 500 meters. In the dive I trim the nose down and perhaps "stand the throttle up" (reduce power to Continuous) so the pipper can remain relatively close to the target as I accelerate downhill. Pull off target and push the power back up to Combat.

 

If one has to trim nose up (for the pull out assist) to avoid hitting the ground, then that describes someone that professionals would call "all dick and no forehead" or "fangs out, hair on fire." His entry altitude probably is too high (resulting in a long dive), or too steep, and potentially has his left hand trying to push the throttle through the firewall. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by busdriver

[[TWB]80hd]

You know this is pretty easy. Regarding the P-51 quote, I hope you would agree that "the plane would start to get very nose heavy," is a figure of speech not an actual physical change in the weight and balance of the airplane. The faster it accelerated the greater the aerodynamic principle of compressibility was manifested. Compressibility was a relatively unknown phenomena. Had the Mustang been able to accelerate to over 400 mph in a thirty degree climb the author of the quote would (and I'm speculating to be sure) probably have described it as "the plane would start to get very tail heavy."

 

The description of the the yoke flailing around is because in the speed range where compressibility effects are felt, the burbling air flow across the wing (fuselage) rapidly changes the local air from suction to positive pressure. So this notion that nose up trim is the solution, perhaps misses the point. Sure, the nose is pointed at the ground so you want to avoid hitting the ground. We agree. We apparently differ on a logical entry altitude and nominal entry airspeed. I never achieve an airspeed close to 700 km/h when strafing or bombing. 

 

RL pilots know that "trim is your friend." This sim is great fun, but it is unable to replicate the physical fatigue a pilot feels (in his hand, wrist, and arm) from flying out of trim.  Having the airplane trimmed up for the condition of flight reduces that fatigue. No, carpal tunnel or post gaming session isometric induced stiffness is not the same. 

 

How does this pertain to providing tips on strafing? Without quoting my initial advice, I suggest fairly consistent starting parameters. I have the thrust set at the Combat Power range, and I use less than a 30 degree dive (closer to 10-15 degrees) from a nominal entry altitude of 500 meters. In the dive I trim the nose down and perhaps "stand the throttle up" (reduce power to Continuous) so the pipper can remain relatively close to the target as I accelerate downhill. Pull off target and push the power back up to Combat.

 

If one has to trim nose up (for the pull out assist) to avoid hitting the ground, then that describes someone that professionals would call "all dick and no forehead" or "fangs out, hair on fire." His entry altitude probably is too high (resulting in a long dive), or too steep, and potentially has his left hand trying to push the throttle through the firewall. 

 

I do not at all disagree with anything you said here, and specifically the "all dick and no forehead" piece, absolutely that is what this little training-wheels fix would be... 

 

This sim has a learning curve that is so steep that real-world pilots are probably wholly unable to empathize with a neophyte in that they are probably 7 levels beyond taking for granted fundamentals that said neophyte probably struggles with.

 

I approach this from the perspective of a gamer, to be sure, but I would not be here if it were not for the realism of the sim itself.  Nothing against "doing it the right way", or at least doing it "by the book", but seeing as that a poster is relatively unlikely to be employing strafing tactics in the real world, I disagree that my advice is terrible advice. 

 

We wear earplugs when sending rounds down range in training, and just because that is not a guaranteed luxury in combat does not mean we should eschew it in the interim.

 

Absolutely the best-case scenario for a budding ground-pounder would be to go through hours of disciplined flight-school training before attempting such maneuvers.  As this is often not the case, I would personally rather ere on the side of facilitating engagement and interest in the sim... there is an undeniably broader appeal and satisfaction in successfully making things go boom than there is in executing a perfectly synchronized maneuver. 

 

For some players (pilots real and virtual), controlling the aircraft is effortless... monitoring all the gauges is done without a second thought, and manipulating the controls through changes in altitude, heading, and velocity are done via muscle memory.  Adding the mechanics of recoil and trajectory, when all these foundational building blocks pre-exist, is relatively rudimentary.  In the absence of said blocks, and the likelihood of any given individual to invest the requisite hours of their leisure time into establishing this foundation, I lean toward facilitating the entertainment factor in the hopes of retaining the player.  Same reason I recommend that new IL-2 pilots going after tanks set rockets and bombs to release in pairs... is it the best way? No... is it the most efficient?  Well, if Newjack brings home 2 tanks instead of 0 tanks, then I'd call it a win.  Same thing I would say for Newjack flying a little out of trim, rather than kissing flora. 

 

One thing I will say is that if you truly believe trimming (for my example I default to the IL-2, which I probably should have clarified in my original post) an attacker slightly nose-high should result in a banana pass in IL-2 BoS, then should this not be brought up as a development suggestion?  If it's simply a matter of the force/fatigue related to the extra pressure required on the controls, how many passes would one need to make before this became a factor?  If it's an actual airframe issue in that it is behaving in a "gamey" way, then perhaps it could be adjusted to prevent this?

 

Anyway, I'll stop the back and forth here... nothing against your advice and certainly nothing against your expertise and experience, good hunting.

Are you seriously suggesting that P-51s conducted strafing attacks at 450 mph IAS?

 

No, please, as the esteemed Jason once told me, please use your head and think.  The point is that trim was absolutely manipulated for more than just synchronized flight. 

[busdriver]

One thing I will say is that if you truly believe trimming (for my example I default to the IL-2, which I probably should have clarified in my original post) an attacker slightly nose-high should result in a banana pass in IL-2 BoS, then should this not be brought up as a development suggestion? 

 

If it's simply a matter of the force/fatigue related to the extra pressure required on the controls, how many passes would one need to make before this became a factor?  If it's an actual airframe issue in that it is behaving in a "gamey" way, then perhaps it could be adjusted to prevent this?

 

In answer to the first. A banana pass is the natural result of being out of trim. This is realistic, and modeled properly. For example: suppose you were trimmed up at X airspeed. Meaning you can fly hands off, which is how you confirmed to yourself you were indeed trimmed properly. Push over into a dive, superimpose the top of the canopy frame (the canopy bow) on the horizon. As you dive and accelerate, forward stick displacement (pressure) is required because the plane wants to return to its trimmed airspeed. If you completely let go of the controls in a dive at an airspeed of X+50 km/h the plane will climb initially (maybe slowing to X-50 km/h) and then porpoise with decreasing amplitude finally settling at airspeed X. 

 

Diving to strafe or bomb with nose up trim will aggravate this tendency. You don't even have to release the controls completely, merely relaxing the forward stick pressure just a bit induces the banana pass. Having to correct by more forward stick possibly induces a PIO (pilot induced oscillation).

 

As to the second...not sure I understand your question. It's not a question of the number of passes. I don't think the sim has anything to correct in term of aircraft behavior as it pertains to the perils of diving with nose up trim.

[19//Moach]

The trick to ground attacking is the pull-out.

 

First, and most obvious, if you don't pull out, there will soon be a new crater full of you somewhere near your target.  Pulling up helps prevent that.

 

 

But then there is the other thing, which even experienced ground-pounders sometimes neglect to do.

 

 

When you pull up, you should fly straight for a while, and only afterwards begin your turn back around.

 

The reason for that is basic geometry.   A complete turn inevitably ends up at the exact same spot where it began.

 

Therefore, if you start turning right over your target, by the time your nose comes back around on it, you will be right above it again, and there will be no time to take aim.

 

 

 

The trick then, is to fly straight.  Get back to your circling altitude in a straight line, only then, begin your turn.

 

 

That way, instead of tracing a small 'c' shape in the sky around your target, you should make something more like a wider "C>"  The straight sections are where you pull back up straight, and where you get to line up again for a stable next shot.  

 

Alternatively, you may as well fly a "&" pattern, circling a half-turn just as you climb, but then turning 270 degrees in the opposite direction for the attack run.  That allows you a moment to spot your next victim, and a good straight line approach to set up your aim on it.

 

 

Do that, and you'll find it much easier to make every pass count.  Also, avoid the urge to make passes on multiple targets, unless they're very well lined up and you have planned ahead for it.  Sudden "I think I can hit that one as well" decisions are very common features of stories exchanged by pilots in the afterlife.

 

 

It's all about the approach.

Edited November 15, 2017 by 19//Moach