Strafing tips

[PatrickAWlson]

I could use some.  In general I can't hit those tiny little things puttering along the ground until I am at point blank, and then the inevitable happens.  Any tips from the experts on getting lined up and scoring hits without acting the ploughwshare?

[coconut]

Start from altitude (500m), shallow dive angle (30deg? I’m not sure), don’t forget to pull up. The dive angle help put rounds close to where the sights are pointing.

Edited November 6, 2017 by coconut

[TP_Silk]

I know this probably won't help much, but this is one of the things that is so much easier in VR. The extra depth perception is what does it.

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

I found that one of the best aircraft to practise ground staffing is the P40, with those six fifty cals you can walk those rounds right over the target, I think you will also find that the gun convergence will have to be altered, get that right, and you can hit targets sometimes at long range.

 

Good Luck.

[Danziger]

I usually max out convergence. I fly mostly Soviet planes so not a lot of wing mounted guns anyway. I do a steeper dive at higher altitude (500-800m) and pull out earlier. I try to just make quick passes. With the MiG-3 I have to change tactics due to slower control response. It needs a much more shallow dive from lower altitude and longer distance. Makes things more difficult all around and I wind up ramming the target a lot in the MiG.

 

 

Edit: I will add that I speak above about using fighters. I mostly use LaGG with 23mm and rockets for ground attack. Sometimes I'll take the MiG against most targets apart from tanks.

Edited November 6, 2017 by BorysVorobyov

[216th_Jordan]

I found that one of the best aircraft to practise ground staffing is the P40, with those six fifty cals you can walk those rounds right over the target, I think you will also find that the gun convergence will have to be altered, get that right, and you can hit targets sometimes at long range.

 

Good Luck.

I'd say take the 4 gun version with additional ammo. You have more than 50 seconds of fire and with a high convergence you can fire from quite far away. You want to be rather steady on you strafing run, dont pull in on the last second. If you want to strafe whole column from behind then start with a steeper (but still shallow) angle and start firing early while pulling up in the same time so in the end you fly almost horizontal before you pull away to reposition.

 

I usuall prefer the single target method, especially when there is flak around. As others have said before: After the attack really take the time to gain speed and altitude again before going in again.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I could use some.  In general I can't hit those tiny little things puttering along the ground until I am at point blank, and then the inevitable happens.  Any tips from the experts on getting lined up and scoring hits without acting the ploughwshare?

 

 

I'm writing this from the perspective of flying the IL-2.  Start from ~150 meter altitude(more means you have local air superiority or a deathwish) .  If you're dropping bombs wait until the target is just passing out of your gunsight and beneath your nose and drop(with a delay of course or you'd be dead) .  30 degree down nose is the ideal angle but sometimes you just don't have the altitude.  Against a moving target it's guesswork naturally.  For cannons against tanks start shooting from ~300 meters away if you have enough ammunition to tolerate some missing in return for a longer window of shooting.  If you have little ammunition you'll have to wait until you're 100 and closing.  You'll pull up just before you hit the tank.  Rockets are similar to cannon but remember to kill a tank requires a direct hit and they require some finesse to compensate for any drop and convergence.

 

To kill tanks I have to focus on a single one per run if I'm using cannons, usually.  Attacking a convoy of APCs, trucks and AA you should be able to target one vehicle after another and place a few rounds of cannon on each, switching targets with your rudder as you progress though them.  Attacking something like a line of artillery and AA should allow you to open fire from very far(800m) with your cannons, then fire rockets if you have them(or pick your targets more precisely with your cannon if you don't), then drop bombs as you pass directly over the target all in a single pass, dodging AA fire as come and go.  Your rudder is your tool for switching targets during your run.

Edited November 6, 2017 by 7-GvShAP/Silas

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

From the legendary Dart: 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[Finkeren]

Strafing is so much harder a task than it appears to. Especially when coming from the original IL-2 where it was the easiest thing in the world. You are shooting from a less-than perfectly stable platform at a very small target, which is often moving, with a closing speed of 300-500kph - it's not easy. 

 

I can't claim to be good at it myself, but when I dabble, I find, that it is the one aspect of air combat, where you absolutely have to keep convergence in mind at all times. If you just put the target in your crosshairs and shoot at pretty much any distance (which is how it worked in the original IL2) you will  miss.

 

Also, while it may be tempting, simply setting your convergence to max isn't automatically gonna make your life easier. Shooting at ground targets at longer ranges means that you'll really have to start factoring in your targets movement and the wind speed. Taking account of wind is near impossible when performing multiple attacks from different angles - but if you shoot from 800m with a strong side wind, it will make you miss your target by 10m or more. If you can, always try to attack upwind or downwind, but preferably from medium distance in the 300 - 500m range.

 

Reqiuem's video on how to use the BK 3.7 on the Stuka is a good introduction to the basic principles. It works the same with all other guns:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmxoTilkfRQ&index=3&list=PLnyigzFtHeNooN19kyhiT2UqojQPacCcE 

[Sky_Wolf]

I have a serious question: How can it be that the designer of a popular modification for Il2: BoX (PWCG) does not know how to strafe without crashing into the ground? 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I have a serious question: How can it be that the designer of a popular modification for Il2: BoX (PWCG) does not know how to strafe without crashing into the ground? 

 

How is it that somebody who knows how to strafe without crashing in to the ground is unable to design a popular modification like PWCG?

[dburne]

I have a serious question: How can it be that the designer of a popular modification for Il2: BoX (PWCG) does not know how to strafe without crashing into the ground? 

 

Perhaps he spends much more time developing to provide a fantastic product for us, no telling how many countless hours he spends on this,  than actually flying and enjoying the sim...

[PatrickAWlson]

I have a serious question: How can it be that the designer of a popular modification for Il2: BoX (PWCG) does not know how to strafe without crashing into the ground? 

I code a lot and don't fly much.  

[schurem]

Sir CodeALot: I like big bugs and i can not lie, and you brothers cant deny: i can't hit [Edited].

Edited November 7, 2017 by Bearcat

[56RAF_Roblex]

From the legendary Dart: 

 

 

 

"No Rudders! You'll get cattywampus sure as anything"   Gotta love that accent 

 

I was going to say the same as him ie  Aim Low then let the target drift into the sights.  Also Reduce Speed; with the IL2 I even apply flaps during the dive.  Lastly Get Lined Up And Stable In Time;  Some aircraft are naturally stable anyway so you can keep dodging until quite late but other aircraft get a bit twitchy if you try to make corrections so get steady in time and stick with that course.   That is just my own take. Others may disagreee but I was wondering how people were getting tank kills so easily while I was getting very few.  I found coming in at 30 degrees instead of 45 and slowing down instead of going full throttle suddenly tripled my kill rate.

I would also say that some aircraft are really quite bad at GA eg the spitfire. It is not just because it has wing mounted guns, the JU87 and the P40 have those and are great at GA, but it is also twitchy and prone to the nose wandering when you try to adjust your aim. I am not saying you cannot use the spit to take out AA & trucks, just that there are better choices :-)

Edited November 6, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Sky_Wolf]

Thank you for an honest answer to an honest question. And thank you for PWCG!

[busdriver]

Try to be consistent (in the ballpark) with your starting parameters...airspeed, altitude, dive angle. You know how you can tell if your final approach for landing is too shallow or too steep, that kind of ballpark.

 

Put in some nose down trim. How much? Depends. If you find yourself pushing forward on the stick as you approach the target, trying to keep the pipper on it, you need more nose down trim. This is another one of those reasons to be consistent with you roll in parameters. Experiment on a non-moving target. When you roll in, your Initial Pipper Placement (yeah it's a RL expression when talking bombing and strafing) should be short of the target, then it will gradually drift up to your target. Again if you are applying a lot of forward stick to hold the pipper on the target, you need nose down trim. If the pipper does NOT move, you found the perfect trim for THAT pass (those entry parameters).

 

You may find the RL mantra, "steep, fast, press" useful. Meaning typically steep is better than shallow, fast is better than slow, and press (get closer) before firing. Personally I've frequently ignored the first two and simply pressed in too close (hitting trees during my pull up). In my case I think it's because I picked my target too early, at a lower roll-in altitude and put the pipper near it.

 

IRL we had a strafing/bombing training rule, during your firing pass you should not be wings level for more than four seconds. The idea being to minimize your exposure to AAA. That's a good rule to follow on some of the MP servers.

Edited November 6, 2017 by busdriver

[Nibbio]

My recipe:

 

1) point in the general direction of the target

2) start shooting early

3) shoot long enough

 

It's infallible: you're bound to hit something sooner or later.

 

forgot:

 

4) pull up before hitting the ground

Edited November 6, 2017 by Nibbio

[PatrickAWlson]

Thank you for an honest answer to an honest question. And thank you for PWCG!

It's worse than you think.  It was only last night that I took an airplane off of the runway   

 

Anyway, good tips, especially that Dart video.  I just have to pull in the horns and pull up a bit sooner.  If I miss, deal with it.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The High Dive Angles are not what they are made out to be. 

 

1. The large difference in Airspeed at the start and the end of the Dive means you have a lot of Trim Change during the Dive throwing you off Aim. 
2. Pulling out from a High Angle Dive (ca.30°) means you have to rotate the Nose through more than 30° to avoid Ground Collision. You have to convert the entire Kinetic Energy downwards, back into a Climb with inertia and impulse working against you. This means you have to Pull out early. 
3. Flying Along a Road with Trees obscures view on the Target and forces you to pull out well above Tree Level.

 

My Method (earning me 3rd Rank as Tank Buster in Ju-87 on TAW with a 13 Kill Streak+40 Light Tanks) is to 

1. Approach High, ca.300, 90° from the Road and the Target you are trying to hit. It is easier to see the targets that way.
2. Dive Steeply, directly down to Ground Level, and fly Level with the Ground. You will loose speed slowly, but your aircraft will be very stable nonetheless.
3. Approach your target from the Side, it will be easy to see.
4. Open Fire. You have a longer effective period of fire than in the 30° Dive.
5. You can Pull up quite late, since you have no Downwards Impulse. 

 

The 30° Dives only work in Open Country and if you absolutely, positively have to go through the Roof. 

The T-34s and KV-1s however don't take more than 4-6 Hits in the Side before they are Combat ineffective. 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Tangentially related, Patrick, but this is an excellent read onto the finer details of manual ground attack.

 

http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_273a.html

[Finkeren]

Be a bit careful with the Dart video. It’s from IL2-1946.

 

From a tactical perspective about the best way to engage AAA it’s fine, but when it comes to actually laying guns on the target 1946 is just so simplistic and easy, that there is no comparison.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Be a bit careful with the Dart video. It’s from IL2-1946.

 

From a tactical perspective about the best way to engage AAA it’s fine, but when it comes to actually laying guns on the target 1946 is just so simplistic and easy, that there is no comparison.

 

Why should he be careful because of the simulator it was filmed in? The theory applies across the board regardless of which simulator makes gunnery more difficult.

 

That's like saying there is no transfer of knowledge between learning complex engine management between 1946 and BOX - of course there is. The only difference is in the quality of the modeling.

[Sketch]

[Finkeren]

Why should he be careful because of the simulator it was filmed in? The theory applies across the board regardless of which simulator makes gunnery more difficult.

 

That's like saying there is no transfer of knowledge between learning complex engine management between 1946 and BOX - of course there is. The only difference is in the quality of the modeling.

Actually that’s exactly what I said: From a tactical viewpoint the video is just fine and quite useful for BoX.

 

However, when it comes to gunnery (which seems to be what Pat is inquiring about) the differences between IL2-1946 and BoX are such, that you can’t really learn anything from this.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Actually that’s exactly what I said: From a tactical viewpoint the video is just fine and quite useful for BoX.

 

However, when it comes to gunnery (which seems to be what Pat is inquiring about) the differences between IL2-1946 and BoX are such, that you can’t really learn anything from this.

 

I don't agree at all. 

 

"Tactically, the videos are fine and quite useful for BOX but you can't learn anything from this." Those seem to be conflicting viewpoints.

 

Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Finkeren]

I don't agree at all.

 

"Tactically, the videos are fine and quite useful for BOX but you can't learn anything from this." Those seem to be conflicting viewpoints.

 

Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You can’t learn anything about gunnery. Read the whole sentence.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

You can’t learn anything about gunnery. Read the whole sentence.

 

I read the full sentence, genius. 

 

Me disagreeing with you and me being able to comprehend writing in my native language aren't mutually exclusive.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[Finkeren]

I read the full sentence, genius.

 

Me disagreeing with you and me being able to comprehend writing in my native language aren't mutually exclusive.

Why then are you unable to separate the two points, that you can learn about the tactics of attacking AAA from the video, but you can’t learn anything about gunnery in BoX from it?

[[TWB]80hd]

If you're going to make your living doing something that requires diving, it can help to trim your nose a bit high... -50% seems to be a good starting point, your mileage may vary, but this will aid in your climb out/prevent you from running into the deciduous Stalinwood planted everywhere.

 

As mentioned above, start firing before you think you should... if you're in a fighter with short convergence, adjust as necessary, but I just learned 500m and leave it at that unless I am flying specific planes.

 

Use your MGs for trucks, AAA, planes, Artillery, and (on some servers) fuel tanks.  If you feel like you're not getting it done, in that last split second before you nose up, give one pulse of cannon (unless you're AP only on your cannons, e.g. IL-2, then just get better with your ShKASTasticism)

 

Also mentioned above, give ample time for climb-out... get back up, smoothly turn and re-engage... with the following caveats:

 

1. As soon as you start strafing, anyone anywhere near is going to see your tracers going everywhere, and hopefully the explosion/smoke plume from your exploits.  Don't worry about whether or not you hit/killed/etc, save your rubbernecking for clearing your own six as you extend.  Keep in mind that you'll often pick up a bandit who will follow your flight path, so make sure you're checking low on your six... your gentle extend-climb (rather than a steep nose-up) will allow you to evade a faster opponent if you're paying attention.
2. If it's a road target, line up along the road (see 3 below, if AA is still up)... get your pipper on target 1.5km out, get your aircraft settled by 1km out, and open up around 500m out.
3. If you're in on AAA, bring (a) friend(s), make it your primary target, do not keep your nose on a gun that is tracking/firing at you, and make SURE you are varying your altitude and heading... strafing AA (while other AA is still up) looks far different than the more lazy elliptical runs on a de-acked column/emplacement.

This cocktail napkin trash sketch was for a specific instance in which an attacker or Jabo wanted to run down a column and drop most/all of the AA in one go... if you ignore the bombs and assume that you're strafing, the premise remains effective most of the time... anytime you go in on AA, you're taking a chance, and you're probably gonna get annihilated the first couple of attempts, but it's definitely doable/repeatable... and the margin for error is directly tied to the server's AA difficulty setting

 

 

 

You can fly right at AA and porpoise between the bursts, as soon as there is a delay they are reloading... this is when you let them have it.  The key to the above is that you're coming in from on high with some speed... if you're not, or it's your first couple of attempts, I would recommend just worrying about killing one AA at a time (or even just veering hard left/right and getting out of dodge while team mates deal with the remainder).

 

Once the AA is down, then move to that easy, patient climb-out.

 

 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Why then are you unable to separate the two points, that you can learn about the tactics of attacking AAA from the video, but you can’t learn anything about gunnery in BoX from it?

 

I'm sorry, maybe you can clarify why this thread was titled "Strafing tips" or why OP implies he is seeking advice on engaging ground targets instead of titling it "Fink's thoughts on the validity of old community content on the general science of aerial gunnery in relation to digital flight simulation" where OP sought your dissertation on the applicability of old tactical lessons as they relate to strafing ground targets, or all targets for that matter, and your thoughts on how BOX or other simulators model ballistics as a whole?

 

Or better yet, no. 

 

Dart's videos are as relevant today as they were a decade ago. That's really all there is to it. Nothing else to debate there.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

SG, get one of them grips, mate. The Finger is just pointing out that the video is great for the approach part, not so much for the gunnery itself. I agree with him to be fair, I could hit moving targets (aerial included, and from all kinds of angles) a whole kilometre out in the old Il-2 without effort. In BoX you need to really put work into it, and while the approach helps there are some specifics to gunnery which must be respected.

[Dakpilot]

Perhaps a little respect for a thread started by someone who has given so much to the community, could be considered and given

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[[TWB]80hd]

Ohai...  so, this is a deliberate run on a convoy... 109 w/pods, high alt/high speed, in and out and heading home...

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/ThirstyBelovedWebDansGame

 

Notes:

 

1. This is 3x20mm, which is why you can just spray straight up the column and nuke everything you come near.  I just ran the pipper straight down the road... getting lined up in advance is critical, but once you do the compression will actually keep you on target.

2.  Guns have a tough time tracking you when you're this fast

3.  The porpoising at the end was a little sluggish due to the compression, but coupled with the rate of egress and the turn off of their boresight line it was enough to get out without a scratch.

[Dakpilot]

It may seem boring, but more practice of the basics will help a lot, first get very comfortable with circuits and lots of touch and go's, just like irl, before going on to the fun stuff

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[[TWB]80hd]

It may seem boring, but more practice of the basics will help a lot, first get very comfortable with circuits and lots of touch and go's, just like irl, before going on to the fun stuff

 

Cheers Dakpilot

 

Don't listen to him!

 

Frustration and vodka are the only allies you need in the air!

 

[eRoN]

Why should he be careful because of the simulator it was filmed in? The theory applies across the board regardless of which simulator makes gunnery more difficult.

 

That's like saying there is no transfer of knowledge between learning complex engine management between 1946 and BOX - of course there is. The only difference is in the quality of the modeling.

 

It's because 1946 is a much simpler simulator with much less physics. For example, The video says use no rudders. Actually, in BoX you need to use rudder, not to aim, but otherwise you will never keep your crosshair on target, because of the much better modeled propeller inertia that must be countered, not to mention the high degree of wind physics now, and i'm sure other forces that i'm probably not aware of.

Edited November 6, 2017 by eRoN

[busdriver]

If you're going to make your living doing something that requires diving, it can help to trim your nose a bit high... -50% seems to be a good starting point, your mileage may vary, but this will aid in your climb out/prevent you from running into the deciduous Stalinwood planted everywhere.

 

That's terrible advice, even for a 1G comfy chair fighter pilot. 

[Cpt_Cool]

I always zoom in much more when strafing then when shooting air to air, and I thing this helps a lot with my aim. When in doubt come about, and try again to shoot the hen.

[PatrickAWlson]

I think the Dart video did help with one key thing: start by aiming low.  I have a bad tendency to push my nose down on the target if Iam lined up high, with very bad results.  I think the no rudder thing might also help.  Coming from WWI where rudders are used early and often I think they are less necessary in the WWII crates.