Turning tables

[LLv24_Veccu_VR]

Hi

 

Here´s my "reversal" movie. I may change bad position to good in 1 out of 10 so still learning this thing

 

see you in the air...

 

br, Veccu

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-zuad17XXU&t=

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by LLv24_Veccu

[LLv24_Zami]

Nice work!

[56RAF_Roblex]

To be honest I think you were very lucky that those attackers were terrible shots.  Every single attacker had a good usable kill solution on you before you started scissoring and some of them got more solutions after and missed again. A few times you even rolled 360 degrees without making any change in vector while he was directly on your 6 in close gun range and you should have been reduced to matchwood but he still missed :-)

 

They were nice scissors but you always started very late. Watch it again and count how many times you were directly in someones sights and should have died.

Edited November 3, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[JG27*Kornezov]

Hopefully we do not have the red baron all the time behind us.

[LLv24_Veccu_VR]

To be honest I think you were very lucky that those attackers were terrible shots. Every single attacker had a good usable kill solution on you before you started scissoring and some of them got more solutions after and missed again. A few times you even rolled 360 degrees without making any change in vector while he was directly on your 6 in close gun range and you should have been reduced to matchwood but he still missed :-)

 

They were nice scissors but you always started very late. Watch it again and count how many times you were directly in someones sights and should have died.

Thanks Roblex

 

You are right... Thats why I manage to reverse only 1/10...

 

Timing is very difficult to me. When I should start? I guess it depends on speed and energy state of enemy vs. I and that is very difficult to see. And even I see it I make it too late. And if I start too early I think that is also bad, bleeding energy too early and making my 109 unmanouverable is what I do not want to do...

 

More flying and dying maybe is the solution....

Edited November 4, 2017 by LLv24_Veccu

[56RAF_Roblex]

More flying and dying maybe is the solution....

 

Lol   As if we have a choice 

 

I am always getting killed when I think they are still far enough away or the angle is too high for them to hit me 

[JG27*Kornezov]

Timing is very difficult to me. When I should start? I guess it depends on speed and energy state of enemy vs. I and that is very difficult to see. And even I see it I make it too late. And if I start too early I think that is also bad, bleeding energy too early and making my 109 unmanouverable is what I do not want to do...

 

There is a rule of thumb. When you break turn in order to make the attacker to overshoot you look at the rate of closure. When he is closing fast you make an early reversal, when he is not coming in fast you delay the reversal.

 

Here is a longer and textbook answer:

"As a rule of thumb, the greater the range when he overshoots and the slower the line-of-sight rate, the less chance you have of forcing him out in front of your 3/9 line with a reversal.

When a bandit overshoots, there are basically two ways to reverse your turn to take advantage of it. If you see the bandit is going to overshoot with a high line-of-sight rate, you should perform an unloaded reversal. To do an unloaded reversal, simply release the G, roll the aircraft to position your lift vector directly on the bandit, and then pull maximum G directly at him. You should only use this reversal method when you are sure that the bandit will overshoot. This type of reversal does not "force" the bandit out in front of you; it just gets your nose on the bandit quickly when he does overshoot.

The other type of reversal should be used with caution. It is called a loaded reversal. To execute a loaded reversal, keep the Gs on the jet as you roll and pull toward the bandit. This type of reversal is used to "force" a bandit that is about to overshoot into an overshoot.

 

The problem with a loaded reversal is that, if you execute it and the bandit doesn’t overshoot, you will have a bad guy in your chili at close range, and you won't have the air-speed to maneuver. A loaded reversal is used to stop your aircraft in the sky, and if doesn't work, you're in trouble. For this reason, let's go over a few overshoot rules of thumb.

When in doubt about a bandit's overshoot, don't reverse your turn. It is best to reverse when a bandit is overshooting your flight path inside 2,000 feet with a high line-of-sight rate. Outside 3,000 feet, it is best not to reverse your turn. The bandit has too much room to correct his overshoot and maintain a 3/9 advantage on you." 

Edited November 4, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[LLv24_Veccu_VR]

Thanks Kornezov!

 

Nice theory of Scissors...

 

br, Veccu

[56RAF_Roblex]

It does not really help much in our case though.   It describes what you do when someone is attacking from your 8 or 4 while you are already in a tight turn.  It is also for jets where you can be pulling a high G turn and and can still tighten it even more.   We are really more interested in what is the best action to take when you are flying straight or in a gentle turn and someone is coming in fast on your 5-7.   

 

One method that can work when something like a 190 or La-5 that loses E fast in a sustained turn is diving on you is to start a gentle climbing turn while he is well out of gun range and gradually  tighten it as he get closer and starts to follow. If he is clever he will abandon the attack and climb to try again but the trick is to keep tantalising him with the possibility that he can still get you without pulling too many Gs and losing E.  Gradually tighten the turn just enough to stop him getting a gun solution while his hunger for the easy kill distracts him from his increasing wing loading until he passes just outside your turn radius much slower and you can get onto his tail.  It is not easy but does work if you get it right.

[JG27*Kornezov]

Actually the 190 would go for a snapshot in this situation, if the pilot has any sense he would not try to position for 6. But usually red pilots  make full reversal for head on attack if the enemy plane is outside of their turning circle.

56RAF_Roblex you are incorrect to say that what I cited, does not apply in the game and does concern only jets. Those are fundamental and basic things.Unfortunately (or maybe hopefully) few people do care about this stuff and even fewer actually understand it thoroughly and even fewer can apply it in the game.

 

For me the worst situation is when a bandit is slowly crowling on your six while you are on the deck. An easy solution? An obvious one, you need a wingman.

Edited November 8, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[NN_Razor]

nice demo' using stab and flap in a 109. 

[56RAF_Roblex]

 

 

Gradually tighten the turn just enough to stop him getting a gun solution

 

Actually the 190 would go for a snapshot in this situation, if the pilot has any sense he would not try to position for 6.

 

Did you misunderstand me?   How do you make a snapshot when you have no gun solution? By definition it means you cannot pull enough lead to take a shot.  Also, where did I mention trying to position for 6? It makes no sense to Boom & Zoom an enemy in a turn by going for lag pursuit, it will always be lead pursuit unless he is flying straight & level and you have weak guns so want a longer 6 attack..

[JG27*Kornezov]

OK if I am behind you in a FW190 outside your turn radius and coming there is no way I do not find a gun solution. The question is are you going to face me head on or you are going to opt for jinking.

The FW 190 has to train to shoot from every possible aspect angle. And that is not my taste, but there are guys who are extremely good at it.

However without video example it id difficult to judge the exact situation. And possibly I misunderstand,

 

I have seen that some call it energy trap with two variations.

 

a. When the guy comes from above and is faster and you trick him to make the turn and because of the high speed he cannot and tries to follow. Then you reverse and have a shot. My favorite tactic while I am in a Yak or la 5 in il 2 46. Is it working here I do not know.

 

b. Modified Rope a dope. I am higher with some speed to play and the bandit is coming  from low 6 at higher speed. Then I turn in a chandelle he climbs and makes also a chandelle. The key is that I level when I get into my best turning level speed something like 300 km/h. If my calculations are right I need to reach an altitude at my optimum turning speed and he will reach the same altitude below his best sustained turning speed.

 

If the enemy plane is not good enough in managing energies, he will go at my altitude and will be slower let's say 250 km/h. I know that I can outurn the Yak in this situation because I am in my best turning speed and it is not. However that is not the case of i 16 which has best turning speed of 230 km/h IAS.There are diagrams that show what happens with your turn rate when you are not in the best sustained speed

 

If the guy is good he will not buy it and will not slow down to reach my altitude. Or he will deploy flaps and will go for the minimum turn radius. And I will have to counter that by going vertical into a stall fight or by keeping playing turn rate versus turn radius or I will unload and get more lateral separation before going into the next climb.

 

The key for me is to observe carefully the choices they make and act accordingly. If the guy is obviously making bad choices or showing poor piloting technique I will prioritize my most aggressive options in order to minimize the time necessary for the kill. Otherwise I would just try to extend, I would take the fight only if I have reasons to believe it will be undisturbed 1 versus 1. In many versus many I will try to extend.

Edited November 11, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[56RAF_Roblex]

 

OK if I am behind you in a FW190 outside your turn radius and coming there is no way I do not find a gun solution. The question is are you going to face me head on or you are going to opt for jinking.

The FW 190 has to train to shoot from every possible aspect angle. And that is not my taste, but there are guys who are extremely good at it.

However without video example it id difficult to judge the exact situation. And possibly I misunderstand,

 

OK I see where the misunderstanding is.   Yes if I start turning while you are a long way away you will always be able to get guns on me because the distance means you have to turn fewer degrees than me. I coudl turn 45 degrees and you only need to adjust by 5 degrees.   I was unclear when I said start your turn while the enemy is "well out of gun range".  What I meant is to stay straight, or turning very gently, as if you have not seen him until he is 'Nearly' in range but not close enough to try a snapshot. Remember he thinks you are unaware so will want to wait until he is well within range before letting you see his tracers.  At this point the difference in angles is much reduced and he is drooling over his imminent easy kill. You then start a gentle climbing turn (the climb & turn burn more of his E than yours because he is faster) but never so extreme that he thinks he has lost his chance to still get his guns on you.   When he finally realises he is being played like a fish and abandons his attack he will be passing you outside your turn and much slower than he was so you can scissor the other way and pepper him before he gets out of range.   If you are really lucky (or he is very stupid) he has blown all his E and is wobbling just above the stall while you have maintained your own E.     The timing is hard and each attacker is different so I have lost the gamble several times.  Paradoxically it is the inexperienced ones that usually get me because they lack the discipline to get close before firing and catch me with a lucky shot when I think they are still too far away :-)  Or maybe they were just very good shots and knew they could get me from a long way out.

Edited November 11, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[JG27*Kornezov]

56RAF_Roblex you are describing  quite an advanced technique that requires a lot of experience and high skill in  judgement of energy. I would say even if that looks simple the judgement involved is at the expert level. So every time you make it, you have an S! from me.

 

However I would like to give you some warnings that are more game related. Because of the lag on some servers what you see is not what your opponent gets. So you may not see that the bandit has a shot, but actually he does. On many occasions I am 100 % the enemy has not a shot but he has. That is way more pronounced

on Berloga than on wings of liberty.

 

Also the difficulty of judgement is also related to the lack of 3d vision. If the opponent has an Oculus Rift he would have a better judgment in this particular scenario. The same is valid for the defender.

 

In my humble opinion turning tables is domain for experts. Some guys are so good that you cannot turn the tables on them. Maybe the first objective is to survive a little longer.

I refer to this excellent video of Ape of the year who is providing some real tutorial, this is not BOS what what he says is valid for 109 here. This video is really adapted for case scenario of defense in 109.
 

It is interesting especially the beginning but do not use as a beginner his <advanced techniques> starting at 12:00.

Edited November 13, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov