A look ahead to the Pacific

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

I do not think it will be terribly unbalanced. The A6M2 certainly flies well, but it has several disadvantages that matter in-game. Only having 60 cannon rounds, many players will struggle to bring down targets if they face several enemies and miss a few shots. The F4F armament should be more consistent. 

 

I imagine that the A6M2 vs F4F fight will be much like a match between the Bf 109 E-7 and P-40 that we have today in BoM (except both aircraft will be somewhat slower but more manoeuvrable).

[von-Luck]

Not to rain on your parade but the differences in capabilities are somewhat stark. The F4F has a faster critical dive speed and I believe a faster roll rate but I could be mistaken. The A6M2 is better in every other regard. I would compare these two more like the lagg-3/P-40 vs the 109F4. Energy discipline will be key to succeeding in the F4F and with very few ways of resetting an engagement I feel like it will be a frustrating experience for people expecting a more even showing.

 

von Luck

[Gambit21]

The Zero had a famously snappy roll rate with it's light weight and "barn door" ailerons.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Not to rain on your parade but the differences in capabilities are somewhat stark. The F4F has a faster critical dive speed and I believe a faster roll rate but I could be mistaken. The A6M2 is better in every other regard. I would compare these two more like the lagg-3/P-40 vs the 109F4. Energy discipline will be key to succeeding in the F4F and with very few ways of resetting an engagement I feel like it will be a frustrating experience for people expecting a more even showing.

 

von Luck

 

 

Hahaha LaGG-3/P-40 is probably an accurate description of the F4F. Fortunately, this community seems quite adept at fighting unequal opponents without too many complaints. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

My take on the A6M and F4F duel is that the A6M will be great for individualist pilots who want to get into a skillful dogfight riding on the knife edge of the flight envelope and taking the enemy down with sustained machine gun and carefully aimed 20mm cannon rounds. The F4F will be for the strategist who has ensured their advantaged position and attacks with precision and patience.

 

The A6Ms job is to ensure that they never get hit or into the enemy firing line. The F4F has less to worry about in terms of taking a bit of damage but they do want to maintain position so as to never have to actually turn with the A6M for more than a few seconds at a time. A short tracking shot in a dive with the good over the nose visibility makes the F4F one of the better deflection shot aircraft I've flown in a sim.

 

They are totally different aircraft to fly and I think that will be a lot of fun. Fairly "balanced" but you really have to fly differently or your toast.

[von-Luck]

My only quip to this being there's nothing stopping zeros from a similar energy fighting play style. I for one will still be bouncing in an A6M2 as that guarantees my energy advantage and leaves very few ways for my opponent to successfully disengage. No doubt decisions in the F4F will be more difficult by nature of having fewer allotted mistakes before your in deep doo doo. I just don't think you will see zeros in a furball just because they can.

 

von Luck

[BlznSaddles]

My only quip to this being there's nothing stopping zeros from a similar energy fighting play style. I for one will still be bouncing in an A6M2 as that guarantees my energy advantage and leaves very few ways for my opponent to successfully disengage. No doubt decisions in the F4F will be more difficult by nature of having fewer allotted mistakes before your in deep doo doo. I just don't think you will see zeros in a furball just because they can.

 

von Luck

 

Depends how they model the 350mph dive speed limit on the zero... kinda hard to boom n' zoom without a lot of boom.

[von-Luck]

Depends how they model the 350mph dive speed limit on the zero... kinda hard to boom n' zoom without a lot of boom.

 

I dunno - I see plenty of Russian planes with limited dive speeds taking advantage of altitude.  I mean if you want to make it sound impossible sure - just don't be surprised when it happens to you.  

 

von Luck

[BlznSaddles]

I dunno - I see plenty of Russian planes with limited dive speeds taking advantage of altitude.  I mean if you want to make it sound impossible sure - just don't be surprised when it happens to you.  

 

von Luck

 

 

I agree it's not impossible to use those tactics but it might be kind of hard to catch much if 350mph is the fastest you can go (anecdotal accounts of the wing skins "wrinkling" at 350mph for the Zeke)  What Russian fighter has a dive cap at 350 out of curiosity?  

 

Anyway, I'm not saying you can't use boom 'n zoom tactics with the Zeke, just that it has several attributes that make it less than ideal for that purpose (very low wing loading as well)

[Gambit21]

Best thing with the Zeke is stay at corner speed and prey on the guys who think they can knife-flight with you.

Go fast/dive then unless you have an altitude advantage you're playing their game...and you'll lose.

Keep it in the sweet spot - you're a katana, fly it accordingly.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

I guess we won't know until we see just how bad the control stiffening is. 

 

One other thing to consider is the fuel situation. Given the long distances typical of naval operations, I wonder if scenarios could force players to carry large amounts of fuel for the trip home. The A6M2 is a light aircraft with a rather large fuel capacity. In the Pacific, we could see fuel weight having a greater performance impact than ever before. 

[CUJO_1970]

I can see Zeke and Wildcat being quite a duel.

 

But when the Hellcat shows up?

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Hellcat will sometimes have to deal with Ki-84, no doubt a worthy opponent.

[Willy__]

Depends how they model the 350mph dive speed limit on the zero... kinda hard to boom n' zoom without a lot of boom.

 

If anything I expect the zeros to have a bit more of leeway on the top dive speed limit, just like the russian planes have today. 

 

 

 

One other thing to consider is the fuel situation. Given the long distances typical of naval operations, I wonder if scenarios could force players to carry large amounts of fuel for the trip home. The A6M2 is a light aircraft with a rather large fuel capacity. In the Pacific, we could see fuel weight having a greater performance impact than ever before. 

 

Even at full fuel capacity the zero should still outturn the wildcat, so I dont see it impacting that much...

Edited November 1, 2017 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[Gambit21]

Hellcat will sometimes have to deal with Ki-84, no doubt a worthy opponent.

I'd probably be less comfortable in the Ki-84 against a Hellcat personally (always was in the old sim)...because now I have to play his game, only I can't do it quite as well. Gimme the Zeke.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Gambit21

[von-Luck]

you folks seem to think that because a plane can turn well it should be turning - that is a gross mistake.  dog fighting in general is a loss of Situational Awareness which, as most experienced pilots can attest, is a dangerous thing.  So unless you become committed to a kill (and even then it behooves you to take care when committing) there is no reason for your to be burning all your E in fancy turns needlessly.   I get the feeling that people like to frame planes or flying around certain stereotypes "that's a B&Zer - and that plane is a dog fighter"  divest yourself of such narrow minded categorizations.  Yes the aircraft you fly represent a collection of advantages and disadvantages however there is always one constant - the physics of flight.  If you grasp the fundamentals of what your doing in the air and combine it with the advantages your plane possesses you can accomplish great things.  Understand the limitations of your plane as well as the strengths - know the weaknesses and strengths of your opponents.  For example - the F4F dives well - climb above him and force him to repeatedly bleed off all of his alt/E - strive not to allow him to attack from a position of advantage.  That means if you can climb above him - well maybe you should!

 

Think of 109's diving on Russian aircraft in BoX - that's how I get the majority of my kills.  However you need to maintain good SA to ensure a lurking La/Mig/Yak wont bounce you up there.  Understanding your enemies Tactics Techniques and Procedures is a key part to winning the fight - so if that means climbing to get above them than so be it.  I'll venture out on a limb and say that the good Russian pilots get a majority of their kills by finding an E advantage over the 109 and forcing it into a desperate situation.  If I had to venture a guess it would be that the Zeke will be doing very similar things - the key difference here being that the Zeke is superior to the Wildcat in everything but the dive.  I would be willing to bet that sole disadvantage wont be the crippling weakness people make it out to be...  So I for one know I will be bouncing, energy fighting, and lastly dog fighting in a Zeke.   

 

von Luck

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

If anything I expect the zeros to have a bit more of leeway on the top dive speed limit, just like the russian planes have today. 

 

 

 

 

Even at full fuel capacity the zero should still outturn the wildcat, so I dont see it impacting that much...

 

 

I'm not saying it will level the playing field, but fuel could have a noticeable effect sometimes. 400 kg of fuel in an aircraft that weighs 1700 kg empty is significant. 

 

Of course, this would only be relevant if the carriers were not placed 50 km apart in multiplayer and external tanks were modelled. Hopefully we at least get some good time compression in single player. 

[Gambit21]

you folks seem to think that because a plane can turn well it should be turning - that is a gross mistake.  dog fighting in general is a loss of Situational Awareness which, as most experienced pilots can attest, is a dangerous thing.  So unless you become committed to a kill (and even then it behooves you to take care when committing) there is no reason for your to be burning all your E in fancy turns needlessly.   I get the feeling that people like to frame planes or flying around certain stereotypes "that's a B&Zer - and that plane is a dog fighter"  divest yourself of such narrow minded categorizations.  Yes the aircraft you fly represent a collection of advantages and disadvantages however there is always one constant - the physics of flight.  If you grasp the fundamentals of what your doing in the air and combine it with the advantages your plane possesses you can accomplish great things.  Understand the limitations of your plane as well as the strengths - know the weaknesses and strengths of your opponents.  For example - the F4F dives well - climb above him and force him to repeatedly bleed off all of his alt/E - strive not to allow him to attack from a position of advantage.  That means if you can climb above him - well maybe you should!

 

Think of 109's diving on Russian aircraft in BoX - that's how I get the majority of my kills.  However you need to maintain good SA to ensure a lurking La/Mig/Yak wont bounce you up there.  Understanding your enemies Tactics Techniques and Procedures is a key part to winning the fight - so if that means climbing to get above them than so be it.  I'll venture out on a limb and say that the good Russian pilots get a majority of their kills by finding an E advantage over the 109 and forcing it into a desperate situation.  If I had to venture a guess it would be that the Zeke will be doing very similar things - the key difference here being that the Zeke is superior to the Wildcat in everything but the dive.  I would be willing to bet that sole disadvantage wont be the crippling weakness people make it out to be...  So I for one know I will be bouncing, energy fighting, and lastly dog fighting in a Zeke.   

 

von Luck

Thanks professor.

I think I logged more hours in the old Zeke/1946 than any other aircraft.

No it wasn't a real Zeke, nor a perfect sim representation but the basic strengths over the aircraft held true.

 

I flew it to its strengths and killed many an overconfident Hellcat and Corsair.

Time will tell if the same tactics will help hold up with a better representation and more sophisticated flight model.

 

In any case, don't fool yourself regarding how the real Zero was utilized by the aces who flew it.

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

But when the Hellcat shows up?

First Hellcats appeared in summer / autumn 1943. Which is about the same time as A6M5 appeared in Rabaul. Both had advantages and disadvantages, but on paper were quite comparable in many areas. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

I think I logged more hours in the old Zeke/1946 than any other aircraft. No it wasn't a real Zeke, nor a perfect sim representation but the basic strengths over the aircraft held true. I flew it to its strengths and killed many an overconfident Hellcat and Corsair. Time will tell if the same tactics will help hold up with a better representation and more sophisticated flight model. In any case, don't fool yourself regarding how the real Zero was utilized by the aces who flew it.

 

 

It will be interesting to see if any squads will utilise the old "Thach Weave" when going up against the Zero's?

[BlitzPig_EL]

It will be just like it is now.

 

Hartman in his F4F making pretty contrails while his SBDs and TBDs are cut to pieces down low by the A6Ms while trying to accomplish the mission, as the Kates and Vals do their work against the US carriers and the island air field at Midway itself, pretty much unopposed.

Edited November 1, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[Alexmarine]

Everyone's talking about the Zero while the army planes receive no love... Probably I am the only one who would prefer to fly on a Ki-43 than an A6M...

Hope we can get a scenario with army units after Midway

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'm totally with you Alexmarine28.  I have always preferred the Imperial Japanese Army aircraft over the IJN birds, and over all prefer land based aircraft to carrier based ones, the exception being the H8K Emily.

 

However, for the time being this is what we will have in the Pacific theater, so this is where the discussion will be for a while.

 

Personally I'm really wanting to see the Ki-61 modeled, as it is my favorite Japanese fighter, bar none.

[curiousGamblerr]

It will be just like it is now.

 

Hartman in his F4F making pretty contrails while his SBDs and TBDs are cut to pieces down low by the A6Ms while trying to accomplish the mission, as the Kates and Vals do their work against the US carriers and the island air field at Midway itself, pretty much unopposed.

This is pretty much what I expect as well. Which is fine, because I'm looking forward to doing some shredding with the Zeke

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Depends how they model the 350mph dive speed limit on the zero... kinda hard to boom n' zoom without a lot of boom.

A6M2 mod 21 could safely dive up to 360 kts unless it was equipped with spring/balance tabs on ailerons, then dive limit was reduced to 340 kts indicated. 

[Alexmarine]

I'm totally with you Alexmarine28. I have always preferred the Imperial Japanese Army aircraft over the IJN birds, and over all prefer land based aircraft to carrier based ones, the exception being the H8K Emily.

 

However, for the time being this is what we will have in the Pacific theater, so this is where the discussion will be for a while.

 

Personally I'm really wanting to see the Ki-61 modeled, as it is my favorite Japanese fighter, bar none.

I know, but I actually find carrier-based operations interesting as land-based ones. I actually really likes the various attack and bombers planes of the IJN and probably I will fly the B5N2 regularly...

 

I just wanted to remember that IJAAF planes needed some love too as we are heading for the Pacific

[Jade_Monkey]

Depends how they model the 350mph dive speed limit on the zero... kinda hard to boom n' zoom without a lot of boom.

Doom and zoom

[busdriver]

 

It will be interesting to see if any squads will utilise the old "Thach Weave" when going up against the Zero's?

 

Highly improbable. There's nothing to prevent the current BoX population of players from using formation tactics against any opponent, but they don't. If you believe the axiom, you fight like you train, then absolutely not.  Formation integrity in BoX can best be described as, "same way, same day."  I suspect the most widely used tactic of a player in a Wildcat will be parked conveniently at the Zeke's 12 o'clock soaking up rounds waiting for the bandit's supply of 20mm to run out.

[Gambit21]

Highly improbable. There's nothing to prevent the current BoX population of players from using formation tactics against any opponent, but they don't. If you believe the axiom, you fight like you train, then absolutely not. Formation integrity in BoX can best be described as, "same way, same day." I suspect the most widely used tactic of a player in a Wildcat will be parked conveniently at the Zeke's 12 o'clock soaking up rounds waiting for the bandit's supply of 20mm to run out.

This ^

 

 

I'll do what I did in the old days - climb climb climb...slashing, diving pass if the opportunity presents itself, dive away and extend - repeat or keep that energy up and go home.

[BlitzPig_EL]

A6M2 mod 21 could safely dive up to 360 kts unless it was equipped with spring/balance tabs on ailerons, then dive limit was reduced to 340 kts indicated. 

 

 

Just so folks know, 360 KNOTS IAS is 414mph IAS.

 

Anyone know offhand what the Vne of the F4F is?

Edited November 1, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

F4F-4 pilots handbook has following to say:

"The theoretical terminal velocity of the airplane is aprox. 475 knots indicated air speed. It is not expected that this speed will be reached in service dives. Propeller at 45 deg pitch."

 

Its safe to say that you might go beyond 400 knots and forget about stuff behind you. 

[von-Luck]

Thanks professor.

I think I logged more hours in the old Zeke/1946 than any other aircraft.

No it wasn't a real Zeke, nor a perfect sim representation but the basic strengths over the aircraft held true.

I flew it to its strengths and killed many an overconfident Hellcat and Corsair.

Time will tell if the same tactics will help hold up with a better representation and more sophisticated flight model.

In any case, don't fool yourself regarding how the real Zero was utilized by the aces who flew it.

 

Zing! Guess the adage is right about old dogs and new tricks. You keep truckin along doing your thing if wearing blinders is your do then keep at it. As for aces and pilots whom flew the plane I guarantee you I can spend an hour and dig up a number of pilots who used an E advantage to secure a kill. Who would have foreseen the pushback on the concept of a Zeke executing a bounce from a higher energy state than his target? Spend a minute and ruminate on that.

 

von Luck

[Gambit21]

Zing! Guess the adage is right about old dogs and new tricks. You keep truckin along doing your thing if wearing blinders is your do then keep at it. As for aces and pilots whom flew the plane I guarantee you I can spend an hour and dig up a number of pilots who used an E advantage to secure a kill. Who would have foreseen the pushback on the concept of a Zeke executing a bounce from a higher energy state than his target? Spend a minute and ruminate on that.

 

von Luck

Calm down - nobody ever said a Zeke never capitalized on an energy advantage.

 

Fact of the matter is this - the Zero was a direct extension of Japanese culture and philosophy of the time...a country that still had a foot in the 19th century. To the Japanese, a fighter aircraft was a flying katana - this by and large it was flown this way. It was superior in a knife fight, and increasingly inferior as speeds increased beyond it's ability to fight in this manner - the end.

 

 

To the Allies, a fighter aircraft was a flying gun platform - obviously the correct philosophy. The Japanese figured this out but a bit too late.

 

We'll take em together when it finally does get here and figure it out.

 

For the moment, there simply is no direct analogy in the sum to the Zeke, let alone the Zeke vs Wildcat.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Gambit21

[von-Luck]

The point I have been driving home here is as a pilot of such a capable aircraft if you deprive your opponent of their sole advantage you force them into a situation you are almost guaranteed to succeed in. Do you need to be careful with your speed - sure. Could an enemy escape in a high speed dive - sure. But it also doesn't take much imagination to see that this kind of flying can and will be successful.

 

von Luck

[CrazyDuck]

"If you are alone and you meet a Zero, run like hell. You are outnumbered." - Joe Foss, Guadalcanal 1942

[Gambit21]

The point I have been driving home here is as a pilot of such a capable aircraft if you deprive your opponent of their sole advantage you force them into a situation you are almost guaranteed to succeed in. Do you need to be careful with your speed - sure. Could an enemy escape in a high speed dive - sure. But it also doesn't take much imagination to see that this kind of flying can and will be successful.

 

von Luck

Agreed.

What I found over and over again, with maybe 5 exceptions over a number of years, was that most Wildcat, Hellcat, Corair, Mustang pilots while perhaps knowing better, allowed themselves to be dragged to the deck - low and slow.

They get lost in the moment, or figure "just this once, it will be fine" or figure they're the one pilot good enough to pull it off - whatever it is. The point is I was almost always able to get them there and neutralize their advantage as you say.

 

I practiced and practiced with that old Zeke, I knew it's corner speed and that's where I kept it.

Sure I'd pounce from above when the opportunity presented, but always with a foot riding the brake to make sure I could turn.

 

The few times they flew that Hellcat like I always did, like I know Murf and some of you guys here would - I couldn't touch him. That was by far the exception though.

I've wanted to try my hand with the I-16 online to see if I could make this work (did it back in the day) but I spend all my time building missions it seems.

[CIA_Yankee_]

It will be just like it is now.

 

Hartman in his F4F making pretty contrails while his SBDs and TBDs are cut to pieces down low by the A6Ms while trying to accomplish the mission, as the Kates and Vals do their work against the US carriers and the island air field at Midway itself, pretty much unopposed.

 

I dunno about that. It's not like the F4F is the superior Boom n Zoomer here... if anything, in this scenario the best place for the F4F would be down there taking down the A6Ms shooting down the SBDs and TBDs... because that's when the zeros are vulnerable (your maneuverability doesn't mean squat when someone gets on your 6 while you're busy trying to kill someone else)... and Kates and Vals would be great preys for the F4F.

 

If we follow the same trend: that the side with the superior fighters will attract the Hartmans of the world, who remain at the optimal position to effect clean kills (high altitude, ready to pounce), then I would say it's the IJN that would end up with the non-supporting fighters prowling the stratosphere.

 

Or, we can always hope, we can end up with a nice healthy mix and an interesting matchup. The fact one of the teams is going to be 'murica will probably lead to different priorities for some players.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Yankee_

[CIA_Yankee_]

Agreed.

What I found over and over again, with maybe 5 exceptions over a number of years, was that most Wildcat, Hellcat, Corair, Mustang pilots while perhaps knowing better, allowed themselves to be dragged to the deck - low and slow.

They get lost in the moment, or figure "just this once, it will be fine" or figure they're the one pilot good enough to pull it off - whatever it is. The point is I was almost always able to get them there and neutralize their advantage as you say.

 

That an interesting observation, especially given that there are plenty of good LW pilots right now who do not allow themselves to be dragged down low and slow. Could the player base has changed, or is it a byproduct of the LW pilots knowing their mounts are just plain better and the top dogs as long as they keep their E up (as opposed to the F4F, which is outclassed both in the BnZ and turn fighting arena)?

[CIA_Yankee_]

Highly improbable. There's nothing to prevent the current BoX population of players from using formation tactics against any opponent, but they don't. If you believe the axiom, you fight like you train, then absolutely not.  Formation integrity in BoX can best be described as, "same way, same day."  I suspect the most widely used tactic of a player in a Wildcat will be parked conveniently at the Zeke's 12 o'clock soaking up rounds waiting for the bandit's supply of 20mm to run out.

 

Yeah, this is going to be a major challenge for the USN flyers: the kind of tactics that led to evening the odds are highly teamwork oriented... this is hard to do in an environment where most players are uncoordinated solo players.

 

The one reason I'm not sure it will lead to a total debacle is that, well, isn't that really the environment we're in NOW, especially in early-war moscow missions? There's no denying that the VVS is totally outclassed by the LW, and yet the VVS does get to win from time to time.

 

Sure, part of that is that sometimes LW pilots screw up and get themselves in a low level dogfight, where the Zero ALSO shines... but I think for the most part the reason is that our missions are more than just 1v1 dogfights (at least on WoL): we have objectives, with attack aircraft that need to be shot down, and need to be escorted. This grants the "weaker" side plenty of opportunities to enter into a fight in a superior position, or otherwise take the enemy fighters unawares, even though they are totally outclassed.

[Gambit21]

That an interesting observation, especially given that there are plenty of good LW pilots right now who do not allow themselves to be dragged down low and slow. Could the player base has changed, or is it a byproduct of the LW pilots knowing their mounts are just plain better and the top dogs as long as they keep their E up (as opposed to the F4F, which is outclassed both in the BnZ and turn fighting arena)?

Yeah I don't think it will be as easy pickings this time around.