Looking for tips on defensive maneuvering

[Birdman]

Hey guys,

 

I've recently started flying online and also started flying fighters after a lot of bombering around.

 

Some of you might have met me online, if you were on my team, you probably wondered who's this stalled clown with 5 enemies on his six.

 

If you were against me, you most likely wondered at how easy that was to shoot down that guy.

 

Whatever I do I always end up with someone on my six and I can't for the life of me get them off.

 

I'm trying to get better but I have a hard time finding resources for defensive flying. I've looked online and on YT but not much luck.

 

I fly 109s mostly these days.

 

Any advices for the rookiest of all the rookies?

 

Cheers

[katdog5]

fly above everyone else, stay high 

make 1 dive  on an enemy target and make the best of it, get back high 

make your main goal to get back to base 

 

also keep in mind that without a wingman, you're a blind 3 legged giraffe on safari

[Inkophile]

The others have already begun with the important part: If you actually need to defend you already [edited].

 

However one doesn't always have the luxury of having the advantage, and in that case have two main ways to defend: Make the enemy unable to at all achieve guns-on (1), and failing that make sure that his firing window is as brief and difficult as humanly possible (2).

 

For the two options you basically have these go-to maneouvres:

 

1. Defensive spiral, or Split-S, possibly in combination. The idea is that if you need to defend you probably have the energy disadvantage, and the enemy will probably try to maintain his energy advantage. This means that you are engaged in an energy fight.
   
   In a defensive spiral you dive towards the ground in a sustained, diving turn. If the enemy dives on you from above he will have built a significant overtake in speed, and you are to use that against him: By diving you ensure that he has to keep building speed (i.e. keep diving) if he wants to try to get guns on you will be much closer to your corner speed and he will start having significant issues with elevator and aileron stiffness. As a result you can turn inside of him, he'll be pretty much guaranteed to overshoot, and he'll have to try again.
   
   Performing a Split-S follows the same principle, that by diving away from his attack and simultaneously reversing direction he'll suffer too much stiffness to be able to adjust his shot. Since the enemy usually will dive on you from a more or less "upright" position (i.e. canopy pointing to somewhere above the horizon) you dive away from his lift vector, and it's usually very difficult - and sometimes even outright dangerous if somewhat close to the ground - to make a 180 degree roll to stay on the target.
    
2. The second is simply a combination of rolls, turns and side-slips to make yourself as difficult a target as possible. This generally has to be done as a result of that the enemy has acquired an advantageous position somewhere behind you, and is more or less at equal speed. This is an angles fight. The exception is if the enemy has a fair speed advantage but you are in his lift vector and too close to be able to perform #1, and as a result you attempt to side slip/flick roll to make him overshoot, keeping the engagement an energy fight rather than an angles fight. If the speed difference is too small this has a pretty shitty chance of success though.
   
   This requires paying a lot of attention to the enemy, to the point you should look behind you so much that you practically do that more than looking to your front. You need to stay out of his lift vector, because if all he has to do is pull his stick back to get a firing solution you are quite fucked.
   
   Generally doing this means that you end up in a scissors fight, be it flat or rolling scissors. Even if the fight begins in flat scissors it'll probably end up in a rolling scissors anyway. Your only way to personally gain the positional advantage is to make the enemy overshoot, and depending on what you are fighting against this can be very hard to do. If you for example have a Bf 109 or Yak latched onto your six it might be nigh impossible, because both have good power loading and good low-speed potential, the Bf 109 having its leading-edge slats, and the Yak incredibly good low-speed handling characteristics even in a stall.
   
   The only real defense if stuck in a scissors fight is to keep your enemy busy until you can get a friend/team mate to force him to become a defender. Everything else (like making your enemy stall out) is so much down to personal skill that it can never be relied upon.

Edited October 31, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin
Lenguage

[Inkophile]

Just saw this video, and here's a really good example of both proper offense and defense:

[D3adCZE]

Stay fast and high. When having a yak on your 6, try to gain distance and then shallow climb above 500kph. Beware of yak-1b, it has insane E retention but if you drag it above 3.5km it's engine tends to suffocate and you can beat it there.

When having a LA-5 on your 6 below 3.5km, pray that that pilot is bad, since he is faster than you, climbs almost the same, and has INSANE rollrate. I like to force them low and slow where I can beat them to the ground, but you need to be careful for yaks.

 

But like with everything, practice makes perfect. So sit in the cockpit, be patient and learn. The goal is not to kill, goal is to survive.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Inko, that was a very good summation of attack geometry. May I post that to some of my new people whom are struggling?

 

Perhaps a similar summary of positional geometry? (No I'm not greedy, much)

 

You boiled it down nicely.

Edited October 31, 2017 by [CPT]CptJackSparrow

[Inkophile]

Inko, that was a very good summation of attack geometry. May I post that to some of my new people whom are struggling?

 

Perhaps a similar summary of positional geometry? (No I'm not greedy, much)

 

You boiled it down nicely.

 

Certainly! What's written on the forum is meant to be read after all!

[Birdman]

Thanks for all the tips guys. I've got a lot too digest and practice.

 

Regarding lift vector positioning, is there a rule of thumb as to how to position it in relation to the enemy?

[Dave]

There isn't enough room here for specifics of every possible combination of adversaries so I will make a far more generically useful suggestion:

 

Get to know the strengths and weaknesses of your aircraft. Then do exactly the same thing in your opponents' aircraft.

 

You should do this offline so you can "rinse & repeat" more frequently. Record the tracks and replay them to see what you did wrong. Every time you win or lose an engagement stop and analyse what happened and try to evaluate why it went the way it did. The AI aren't brilliant but when starting out they are good enough if repetitive and predictable.

 

Once you think you have an understanding of what areas of the envelope are yours and which are your opponents, do some mental flying - start with a familiar situation that didn't end well for you. Try an alternate sequence of manoeuvres, this time also thinking how your opponent would counter each given your knowledge of his aircraft's strengths.

 

It is important to actually fly the opfor aircraft so you see things from their POV rather than just relying on your perception of their strengths as seen from your cockpit.

 

After you've done all this then you can make more sense of specific suggestions and decide for yourself how good or bad those suggestions might be. Also, don't forget the importance of your attitude (defensive/offensive), aggression and how these affect the behaviour of your opponent.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Dave

[Leon_Portier]

If me and the enemy pass each other. Should I turn with the enemy or against him? Is this already defensive?

Photo:

Edited October 31, 2017 by Leon_Portier

[JG27*Kornezov]

There is not an easy answer for you. I can give you only one advice. Join a squad that offers some lessons. People can give you 20 pages of valuable advice but nothing would replave a guy with even little  more experience than you who will check how you fly stay behind you and give you some practical tips.

I did not learn by myself to fly a sim I had always had a teacher. I have always been a part of a squad. That may not be something formalised just a group of friends flying together.

Edited October 31, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[ST_Pirato]

Looking at the picture,your airspeed is pretty low already. Time to extend,if you still have the chance in such a situation. Altitude is pretty low too,so it could get hairy. Best to avoid such situations in general. Is it against AI? Then you may have still a chance ,but propably not against a competent human player.

[Inkophile]

If me and the enemy pass each other. Should I turn with the enemy or against him? Is this already defensive?

 

There are many books on the topic of fighter combat. They are hundreds of pages long. Not a single one of those books can give you a straight answer for that situation. There are way too many variables to give a straight answer, and for example there we don't know your relative speeds or current angle of attack, which would be the most basic information needed.

[Leon_Portier]

 

 

relative speeds or current angle of attack, which would be the most basic information needed.

 

 

Ohh! I´ll try to figure them out!

[216th_Jordan]

Don't do nose to nose turns with planes that have a tighter turn radius than you (empty Ju-87 has a very tight turn radius). Make use of High and Low YoYos. In general, while turning, try to have gravity help you turn -> tight turns pull up, then turn. (actually part of a high YoYo).

When one plane is behind you on your dead 6 then jink around in every direction while closing throttle completely. Try to force your enemy to overshoot you. Once you see that your flight paths are separated enough you can either start scissors manouver to get behind your enemy or try to pull away.

If you see that the enemy is about to overshoot in a few seconds the advantage is already in your hand (given you are not too slow): turn into his flightpath (you will need to anticipate it) and shoot at him or manouver with him while he is in the defensive now. If you pull behind a 109 that has a speed advantage over you and pulls up vertically: don't follow it -> gain speed and evade next attack early.

 

The best advice that I have is to go to Berloga and do 1 vs 1s. Do an ingame track recording of your fights with tacview file output enabled. You will get shot down 9 out of 10 times at least Finish you fights (I normally do 5 in a row) and rewatch your tacview file. What moves did the enemy make that had him win the match? What did you do? What did you do wrong/ could have done differently? Its a bit painful in the beginning but you will quickly learn what went wrong on your side until you start to realize errors that your enemy made. Additionally you should of course look at ACM figures and watch youtube vidoes of when and how to perform them

Edited October 31, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[Birdman]

Any of you guys fly on the random expert server? I tried their TS but there was just Russian speakers on. My 1.5 words of Russian didn't cut it lol

 

I also tired a quick mission against an Ace Ai 109 F4 vs me in a P40. I was able to defend by scissors and extending to the point of evening out the energy states after I've been boom and zoomed for a bit. The 109 ended up crashing after a bad dive on me. So there's that. Still way easier than with humans but helps to practice the theory.

[Dave]

Any of you guys fly on the random expert server? I tried their TS but there was just Russian speakers on. My 1.5 words of Russian didn't cut it lol

 

I also tired a quick mission against an Ace Ai 109 F4 vs me in a P40. I was able to defend by scissors and extending to the point of evening out the energy states after I've been boom and zoomed for a bit. The 109 ended up crashing after a bad dive on me. So there's that. Still way easier than with humans but helps to practice the theory.

 

If you fly VVS and are online between 0900 and 1300 UTC you are welcome to join myself and a few other English speakers on WOL.

We use the BoS Official Teamspeak VVS English channel. Just as in WW2, teamwork decides most outcomes and sprogs need to start flying with wheels.

[WWGriphos]

... Join a squad that offers some lessons. People can give you 20 pages of valuable advice but nothing would replace a guy with even little  more experience than you who will check how you fly stay behind you and give you some practical tips.

I did not learn by myself to fly a sim I had always had a teacher. I have always been a part of a squad. That may not be something formalised just a group of friends flying together.

 

I'm new to IL2:BoS.  What are the good training squads?  I'm an okay combat sim pilot with lots of RoF and old IL2:1946 experience.  Need gunnery practice in this sim.  I understand BFM and flight dynamics (I'm a RL pilot), but would love to join a group that offers training and the chance to fly with better pilots and learn from them.  

Edited November 1, 2017 by Griphos

[Beazil]

TLdnr after the first post.  I WILL go back and read - I just didn't want to hear more before posting my response.  I don't know if it's already been said, BUT, never put yourself in a position to be shot at, and you'll last alot longer (and no, I'm no ace in this sim, that's for sure - so take this all with a big grain of salt!), but if you expect to survive - don't get hit or put yourself in the spot to get hit.  Fly with a wingman, get on comms, learn the alt of your enemy, and always always assume the high ground (and hi E), dictate the terms of the fight in terms of energy, smite what you can, when you can, and get OUT when you can still determine you have the superior E.  Always assume they are on comms as well.  If you can work this two man unit with a couple of like minded individuals, you can take on more for longer, but know when to go in and when to get out will save you.

 

The best "moves"?  You get to see alot of them when you are in a position to shoot - some guys should be stunt pilots the way they can yank and bank when they have to.  But it bleeds precious E, so don't go for it - it's meant to suck your E..... and get you low and slow for his wingman.  Sure that can work for you too, but you will still be a sitting duck.  You get to practice with that in a yank and bank fest, but it is a guaranteed way to find the limits of your plane too....there's that downside...

 

It takes discipline and good comms and coordiniation.  No single pilot will beat the average two man team with good communication.  Just my thoughts on it.  Now I'm off to read your previous comments, and maybe edit mine. 

 

Edit: Okay, so I had nothing new to add here.  Carry on.  

Edited November 1, 2017 by Beazil

[Inkophile]

I'm new to IL2:BoS.  What are the good training squads?  I'm an okay combat sim pilot with lots of RoF and old IL2:1946 experience.  Need gunnery practice in this sim.  I understand BFM and flight dynamics (I'm a RL pilot), but would love to join a group that offers training and the chance to fly with better pilots and learn from them.  

 

I can recommend joining Sheriff's Discord server as it is quite populated with people from all around the globe. Not a particular squadron per se, but lots of friendly and helpful people, both new and experienced. Not a training squadron, but such ain't really needed to get some practice

Edited November 2, 2017 by Inkompetent

[WWGriphos]

I will do that! I very much enjoy his YouTube videos. I didn’t know he had a Discord server.