109 elevator effectiveness

[SYN_Haashashin]

Hi guys,

 

Ok.. one more try, lets see.

 

Haash

[Haza]

On 11/9/2018 at 5:27 AM, 303_Kwiatek said:

Yep but in BOX 109 got control heaviness much more faster then ex. Mig3 and the same worse elevator response.

 

According to Mark Hanna flying 109 Buchon:

 

" Pitch is also delighful at 250 mph and below. It feels very positve and the amount of effort on the control column needed to produce the relevant nose movement seems exactly right to me. As CL max is reached the leading edge slats deploy - together if the ball is in the middle, slightly asymmetrically if you have any slip on. The aircraft delights in being pulled into hard manuevering turns at these slower speeds. As the slats pop out you feel a slight "notching" on the stick and you can pull more until the whole airframe is buffeting quite hard. A little more and you will drop a wing, but you have to be crass to do it unintentionally. Pitch tends to heavy up above 250 mph but it is still easily manageable up to 300 mph and the aircraft is perfectly happy carrying out low-level looping maneuvers from 300 mph and below. Above 300 mph one peculiarity is a slight nose down trim change as you accelerate. This means that running in for an airshow above 300 mph the aeroplane has a slight tucking in sensation - a sort of desire to get down to ground level ! This is easily held on the stick or can be trimmed out but is slightly surprising initially. Maneuvering above 300, two hands can be required for more aggressive performance. EIther that or get on the trimmer to help you. Despite this heavying up it is still quite easy to get at 5G's at these speeds. "

 

And other test and pilots opinion:

 

AFDU 28 October 1941: TACTICAL TRIALS - Me.109F AIRCRAFT
- 7. No manoeuvrability trials were carried out against other aircraft but the Me.109F was dived up to 420 m.p.h., I.A.S., with controls trimmed for level flight and it was found that although the elevators had become heavy and the ailerons had stiffened up appreciably, fairly tight turns were still possible. [...]

 

Me 109 G:
- How difficult was it to control the 109 in high velocities, 600 kmh and above?
The Messerschmitt became stiff to steer not until the speed exceeded 700kmh.  The control column was as stiff as it had been fastened with tape, you could not use the ailerons. Yet you could control the plane."
-  Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

 

300 mph is near 500 kph IAS.   109 should be capable to get 5-6 G at speed 500-600 kph with trimmed for level flight. In BOX it is not possible casue elavator become too stiffness.  In all other planes ( Mig3, P-39, etc) it is easy possible to achive such G.  In other game where 109 is moddeled it is also possible to get 6 G at 500-600 kph IAS  with trimmed for level flight ( nose heavy) then above 650 kph IAS elevator beacame noticable heavier ( still plane is controlable to pull up up to 750 kph IAS)

 

Also roll rate comparison is interesting expecially regarding higher speeds controllability of different fighters.

 

From NACA charts  ( where was put also 109 G roll rate) it looks that at speed 300 mph and above  ex. 109, Spitifire MK V with metal airleons and P-40 should be close ( P-39 noticable worse)

 

 

 

How it looks in BOX?

 

 

 

P-40 is about 20 deg/s better then 109 when it should be better about 5-10 deg/s only .

 

King of rollers at high speed are La5  ( dunno about La5FN which isnt tested here), Fw 190 and Lagg3.  Fw 190 was close to RL data in roll rate but Lagg3 and LA5 was known ( from VVS test pilots opinion - no other data avaliable) from heavy controlls when banking from one side to opposite even at moderate speeds. It is no good that with some BOX update most planes got more stick force at higher speeds (  some cases like with 109 elevator stiffnes not exacly well done) but for some reason LA5 and Lagg3 was omitted here...

 

303-kwiatek,

 

I'm sure I have seen players now assigning their pitch trim controls to their joystick elevator inputs. Now I'm not here to discuss who is or is not doing it, however, are you able to replicate this action and do some tests please to see if there is an advantage in having it this way instead of having it assigned to a key for example!? 

I believe this question is in keeping of the OP, so have asked the question here!

 

Regards

Edited November 12, 2018 by Haza
"pitch" added

[SYN_Repent]

i have seen this happen many times recently, its a blatant exploit, 109's turning 90 degrees in the air to pull lead when they have no rights in doing so, i hope they patch it out.

[Ehret]

1 hour ago, SYN_Repent said:

i have seen this happen many times recently, its a blatant exploit, 109's turning 90 degrees in the air to pull lead when they have no rights in doing so, i hope they patch it out.

 

I just checked it... The stabilizer wheel moves the same speed invariably to the controller type. However, with the "exploit" in the G14 I had stabilizer at -59% and needed constant stick push just to stay level. Without it and normal trimming (stick neutral to stay level) I had stab at -94% thus when it came to pulling the "exploit" had a head-start. This is not too different than manually setting the stab to the -59% when anticipating hard turning and increasing the stabilizer explicitly when pulling.

 

IMHO this doesn't allow something what wasn't possible, before. Easier, yes but I'm not sure it's that great. It will screw anything else as the stabilizer will follow the elevator making normal trimming... difficult. Perhaps, with some creative key-bindings it could be mitigated but then why not to learn to use the stabilizer properly in the first place?

Edited November 20, 2018 by Ehret

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

1 hour ago, SYN_Repent said:

i have seen this happen many times recently, its a blatant exploit, 109's turning 90 degrees in the air to pull lead when they have no rights in doing so, i hope they patch it out.

 

I thought they already did. 

 

Was there not an increase to the delay starting the stabiliser adjustment as well as the rate at which changes can be made?

 

I've not tried it but I still can't get through my head how doing something like this would have significant benefit? 

 

Without this, you just predict that bandit is about to turn harder than your ability to pull the stick will be so you preset the stabiliser.

 

Problem with this is you directly negate your ability to nose down, and if he doesn't fly the path you anticipate you have just completely missed the shot, as well as being able to aim precisely for the next 10 seconds as well as you wrestle the stabiliser back to something normal, while trying to juggle your normal cockpit load.

 

Usually I never bother presetting at all unless it's a very predictable opponent due to the negatives described above.

Edited November 20, 2018 by =EXPEND=Tripwire

[Haza]

FYI,

 

 

 

[Kurfurst]

On 11/8/2018 at 7:27 PM, 303_Kwiatek said:

P-40 is about 20 deg/s better then 109 when it should be better about 5-10 deg/s only .

 

Even if its true 10 degrees/sec better than it should be, the difference is extremely small in practical terms. If a plane does a 60 degrees bank in 0,450 secs instead of 0,500 secs, who cares, really. The differences is a fraction of a second. 

[CUJO_1970]

On 11/11/2018 at 9:08 PM, Haza said:

 

303-kwiatek,

 

I'm sure I have seen players now assigning their pitch trim controls to their joystick elevator inputs. Now I'm not here to discuss who is or is not doing it, however, are you able to replicate this action and do some tests please to see if there is an advantage in having it this way instead of having it assigned to a key for example!? 

I believe this question is in keeping of the OP, so have asked the question here!

 

Regards

 

You accused me of this online last night and it needs to stop, please.

 

I was flying G-14 with stock settings, I don't have any pitch trim assigned to joystick elevator inputs.

[E69_geramos109]

I tried once but the plane even that it can pull more gs was behabing like cracy with a very weird elevator response. Almost not possible to aim to anything. Now i set up the trim on a hat on the joy so i can easily moove the trim while making manouvers. I think is the most effective way