Is there a pilot in the plane ?

[LLv44_Damixu]

A big NO for visible pilot in the cockpit. It is challenging to see numerous instruments on the lower / side panels even right now. If there would be a pilot's 3D body and hands to block views to the instruments (which we could not move nor control by any sensible means), the only outcome will be some practically unplayable aircraft types. 

[Venom]

A big YES for visible pilot in the cockpit - at least in VR. With VR it's a must. In DCS and WT it happened to me that I took a hand off the stick or thrust lever to scratch me - and was completely perplexed that I still saw it on the lever. That means, 99.99% of the time that hand in glove completely felt like it was mine!

If the glove in the game catched fire I'd probably felt like pain and I'd wave the hand hastily.

No telemetry data and lack of pilot's figure are the two things where IL-2 is still behind DCS and (I hate to say) even WT...

[Herne]

A big YES for visible pilot in the cockpit - at least in VR. With VR it's a must. In DCS and WT it happened to me that I took a hand off the stick or thrust lever to scratch me - and was completely perplexed that I still saw it on the lever. That means, 99.99% of the time that hand in glove completely felt like it was mine!

If the glove in the game catched fire I'd probably felt like pain and I'd wave the hand hastily.

No telemetry data and lack of pilot's figure are the two things where IL-2 is still behind DCS and (I hate to say) even WT...

 

TBH I fly exclusively in VR in IL2 and I don't miss the pilot model at all. 

[Jupp]

~S~ Everyone,

 

Happy New Years!

 

I vote no on puppets, and yes on dashboard pictures!

 

Cheers!

 

 

Keep 'em flying,

 

"Jupp"

[Oubaas]

I don't mind a pilot in the cockpit as long as I can assign a hotkey to remove him when he's in the way and put him back when I'm finished doing whatever he was in the way of me doing.

 

And he has to have big feet, or it will wreck my immersion. I have big feet and every sim that I own with a pilot in the cockpit has pilots with dainty little feet and tiny little boots. The pilot should have big feet and be wearing an impressive pair of gunboat-sized flight brogans with zips in the laces. I always laced zippers into my flight boots in real life.

 

And if you want to really make me happy, make him old and curmudgeonly. That'll really enhance my suspension of disbelief. I'll feel right at home in the cockpit with that set up.

 

[OrLoK]

Gotta be toggleable.

[Yogiflight]

 

 

The pilot should have big feet and be wearing an impressive pair of gunboat-sized flight brogans with zips in the laces. I always laced zippers into my flight boots in real life.

I would have thought, it had to be cowboy boots for american pilots

[Oubaas]

I would have thought, it had to be cowboy boots for american pilots

 

The cowboy boots and Hawaiian shirts are only worn when there's no big brass around.   

[PatrickAWlson]

I think Finkeren nailed half the issue.  While it is possible to have FPS style body movement based on input controls, there is no good way to move the leg or the arm a bit to get it out of the way of an instrument.

 

Here's the second issue: VR.  Your VR PoV is now your head.  They would have to combine realistic head movement with bodily restrictions, otherwise you will move and twist your head and end up looking at your own neck. Move the body along with the head, as though it is attached to the neck?  Just think of how difficult that would be to animate.  They would also have to restrict head movement based on a strapped in pilot, which in effect is fighting the VR system.  They already do it to some degree by keeping providing a setting that keeps you in the cockpit, but extending that further would be a challenge.

 

It can definitely be done, but it's not a simple thing.

[Mac_Messer]

I mentioned it once long a go, but I agree maybe it was too early. 

But now that graphics are starting to become just excellent, instruments in the cockpit, light, and shade effects, you name it, I would like to insist on how empty this cockpit is.

When I am in a cockpit and when I look around it is just an empty seat, it is a strange feeling of a plane flown by a phantom, or the plane acting like a radio controlled model type.

Even in the race car sims you have the hands moving with the steering wheel or more.

I would like to see my arms legs, say my physical body animated in this cockpit when I fly.

It is some additional modeling work yes, I agree, but if your aiming for excellence then this feature is a must have.

Funny you say that, in race sims I always remove the hands if I have the option. I don`t need any of the animations to enhance the realism.

 

In flightsims I think modelling a pilot is just a waste of scarce resources. Even poeple opting for it will be more or less ok with lack of it, so no sence  in making it.

[D13th_zaelu]

I would like to add my to cents to this old discussion.

Some people like a pilot in a cockpit some don't. Reasons can be the same. "I want one for realism!" or "I don't want one for realism". I have a close friend that flies with me in VR also and he is simply on the other part of the fence.
It simply would be nice to have the option to have the pilot body for those  that want one.  For those who don't... option not to have it

Resources... As the pilots are modeled/and animated for external view and they surely take some resources to create/code and render the argument that no more resources could be spared for this is a bit stretched. For start the external models can be used (like in a mod here around) and just the animations corrected a bit so hands and feet are where they suppose to be. And maybe disable the animations that get in the way (like wiping the forehead etc). Also if you think about it. What is more important to have some pilot moving in a cockpit on the other side of the map or your pilot body that is actually inside your very own cockpit? But the external pilot body got implemented first always. Most probably cause it's lower poligon detail and low rez textures but the principle after is animated is the same.

I am in the camp of having this. Not only for VR but for 2D Monitor also... I used this all the time and I liked it even in other types of games (1st person) to actually have a body and not be a floating camera. Sure... other can disagree.

The counter arguments I encounter during this long multi-game debate have not hold with me. The pilot body or player body never got in the way for me. Especially in planes. Although some very secondary controls can be masked by the body, having them mapped on a HOTAS (like the throttle and throttle buttons or stick buttons) just makes the problem go away and actually be more realistic... as I don't look to press the HOTAS buttons anyway. Some gauges can be masked by the knees etc but either they are not important or if they become at some stage in the flight I can simply shift my view with 6DoF TIR/Oculus or simply pres "P" my default button to toggle the body and see the thing that is masked for a second.

There are many features in a modeled plane in sims that evolved slowly and at any stage there were people that simply said no by default to evolution. Is not that is a bad thing to say no... it's just different and for sure it has the drawback to hold progress also in areas the "conservative person" might want to see progress. Because if you say NO... you can't guarantee you will not receive NO to things you might be interested in. But to say yes... encourages the Yes attitude and maybe you get "your thing" too.

The first 3D cockpits were opposed I am sure... too many resources. Then better textures, then the fully 6DoF cockpits, then 6DoF cockpits but optimized for VR (no holes or untextured parts), Then pilot body, Then complete animations   So on.

Not to mention systems and  clickable cockpits and we will not end the list of features that are for some a must and for others such a waste of resources.

Can we be just friends?


 

Edited November 3, 2019 by D13th_zaelu

[Gretsch_Man]

I would also prefer to be able to see your own (virtual) body when inside the cockpit. IMHO that should greatly increase the immersion in VR. Many racing sims for VR have this feature and it just works flawlessly there.

[Lusekofte]

For VR it would be nice. But for trackIr it is weird. I fly vr and it works well in DCS. But before when I used track ir it was aweful. You looked down inside your guts , head was not in the right place

[56RAF_Roblex]

1 minute ago, Gretsch_Man said:

I would also prefer to be able to see your own (virtual) body when inside the cockpit. IMHO that should greatly increase the immersion in VR. Many racing sims for VR have this feature and it just works flawlessly there.

 

I tried the mod that does that and although it was very cleverly done,  I disabled it very soon after as it was just distracting and did not really add anything.   Racing sims are easier because they just have to model 'both hands on the wheel' and an animation for changing gear.   With aircraft there are dozens of animations needed and if they don't line up perfectly with the control animation it looks bad.

[IckyATLAS]

35 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I tried the mod that does that and although it was very cleverly done,  I disabled it very soon after as it was just distracting and did not really add anything.   Racing sims are easier because they just have to model 'both hands on the wheel' and an animation for changing gear.   With aircraft there are dozens of animations needed and if they don't line up perfectly with the control animation it looks bad.

 

I agree on this. It has to be done precisely and adapted to each aircraft. Either it is flawless or better not have it. But I enjoyed the mod that was made if I am not wrong by Liz_Lemon. I do not use it anymore but it paved the way and made me willing to have it fully implemented by the devs.

 

For all those that do not want it because of the visibility obstruction with the instruments it is very easy. A toggle button to have the body on and off, or to have the opacity of the body toggled so that it becomes semi-transparent or fully opaque. This are graphics possibilities that are easy to implement and so this is not an issue.

But to model the body animations adapted to all the planes existing in the game so that arms and legs move perfectly with the controls, that is the major work and  probably too costly.

 

I admit that using TrackIR that brings nothing. But for VR that brings a lot.

And in the medium terms future say 10 years from now we will have the fully virtual cockpit.

You will have a connected gloves with your virtual reality headset, and when moving with your arms your joystick and throttle and rudder the limbs of the virtual body will do so.

And you will be able to see your hand in the visual field move to toggle a switch in the virtual cockpit. Instead of a mouse to toggle the switch you will use hand and fingers. And today you can already do this and even model the physical feeling on certain gloves that have active sensors to have you feel physically the contact. All this can already be done and it has been demonstrated, but it is lab stuff or very expensive solutions. But one day will come for a few hundred bucks we will have all this.

 

A very very exciting future awaits us. 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by IckyATLAS

[Elem]

On 11/13/2017 at 4:55 PM, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

We don't have to show you any stinkin’ pilots!"

Right on!

Use the Mod if that's what you want.

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Elem

[Yogiflight]

3 hours ago, No.322_LuseKofte said:

But before when I used track ir it was aweful. You looked down inside your guts , head was not in the right place

Just move your head to the correct position and you don't have this issue anymore. It is pretty easy, even I was able to do it.

2 hours ago, Elem said:

Use the Mod if that's what you want.

The main problem for me with this mod is the constantly waving of the pilot's hand over the goggles. It is absolutely annoying to have this every twenty or so seconds. And LizLemon's second mod, which should stop this, only worked with the FW 190 A3 for me. As far as I noticed, the new pilot figures for BoBP don't do this anymore, so the mod would be working better with them.

And of course done by the Devs with the hands moving with the stick and throttle and the feet with the rudder pedals, like it used to be for the second pilot (engineer) in the Ju 52, would make it much better looking. I don't need to have the hands moving every lever or press every button. 

BTW I would like to have this for Tank Crew, too. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Yogiflight

[Gretsch_Man]

11 hours ago, Elem said:

Right on!

Use the Mod if that's what you want.

 

Hey, I wasn't even aware such a mod exists. Gonna have to check it out.

 

Thanks for the heads-up! 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Pilot in the pit seems interesting - if it didn't potentially block gauges.  On the other hand I play Elite Dangerous - mostly treating it as a spaceship model kit sim than anything - and if I widen out the FOV to max and look at the body in the seat, I can see the hole in the model where my neckbeard should be.   That kind of spoils it a bit.  

 

What I would want more is set limits in-game for TrackIr when it comes to the back of the cockpit so the head turn looking backwards can't possibly be 180 degrees.  There's nothing more annoying than looking back and getting disoriented when the view gets 'locked' in that position until I can get it back under control with some neck gymnastics.   I know that TiR has settings but, supplementing the in-game pits with some realistic limits would make it a lot better IMO.  

[danielprates]

22 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

For all those that do not want it because of the visibility obstruction with the instruments it is very easy. A toggle button to have the body on and off, or to have the opacity of the body toggled so that it becomes semi-transparent or fully opaque.

 

I really have no stake on this because I shrug to this own-body issue, but I just can't leave this alone: since "realism" and "immersion" is the reason behind wanting to see yourself in the pit, how can a translucid body or a flickering body be acceptable at all?

 

Like, "for realism issues I cant't stand to see that empty cockpit" but then "let's go into ghost-mode for a second here while I land". I find that really weird. Not criticing, just... ugh.

Edited November 4, 2019 by danielprates

[MasserME262]

On 10/28/2017 at 6:04 AM, Uufflakke said:

Not to mention all the different uniforms of the pilots per nation and theater of operations.

Ehhh, no. You don't model an animation for different uniforms

[Lusekofte]

Like in DCS it would be offered as a choice. And as such wont be a problem for anyone. 
 But it has been suggested and neglected numerous times. And with that in mind I guess it is a budget issue and pretty low in priority list

Edited November 4, 2019 by No.322_LuseKofte

[LukeFF]

On 11/13/2017 at 2:15 PM, LukeFF said:

 

[Yogiflight]

42 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

You know, we create such threads, just to see you beat your dead horse again