Noob: How to dogfight in the P-40?

[BlitzPig_EL]

Something in those stats seems very wrong.

 

Max range for the P 40 is on the order of 1100km (650 statute miles).

[Dutchvdm]

Something in those stats seems very wrong.

 

Max range for the P 40 is on the order of 1100km (650 statute miles).

 

Very wrong seems a bit excessive.. It's a 10% difference. 

 

Grt M

[CIA_Yankee_]

Don't touch the mixture unless you want to save fuel. As I wrote in the previous post it is in AUTO RICH per default, which is exactly the setting you want to run at for high performance.

 

What you need to do is to keep the RPM between 2650 and 2800 in combat, and the manifold pressure at around 42". For continuous power, keep the RPM at less than 2650, and the manifold pressure at less than 40". 3000 RPM and higher manifold pressures are reserved for take-off and very brief boosts of power in combat. I'd aim for never going above 45" of power to be on the safe side, since misjudging the amount of throttle required or rapid changes in altitude or speed can make the manifold skyrocket in no time at all.

 

A question:

 

The specifications tab does state that combat power is 3000 RPM (basically 100% RPM) and something like 42 or 45" manifold pressure for a max of 5 minutes, yet you and some others have mentioned to stick the RPM to 70% and not mess with it afterwards.

 

Does this mean that you can gain the same thrust by staying at 70% RPM and just adding more throttle, or is the "stick to 70%" just a way to simplify engine management and going to 100% RPM for combat/emergency power is actually more effective?

 

Thank you.

[Farky]

keep in mind, the P40 is not designed to do combat maneuvers with fuel in the rear tank.

 

that means, for combat, you should have no more than 50% fuel

 

 

That is incorrect. P-40 was not designed to do combat maneuvers with FULL fuselage tank, the upper limit for combat maneuvers was approximately 76% of the fuel.

[Dave]

A question:

 

The specifications tab does state that combat power is 3000 RPM (basically 100% RPM) and something like 42 or 45" manifold pressure for a max of 5 minutes, yet you and some others have mentioned to stick the RPM to 70% and not mess with it afterwards.

 

Does this mean that you can gain the same thrust by staying at 70% RPM and just adding more throttle, or is the "stick to 70%" just a way to simplify engine management and going to 100% RPM for combat/emergency power is actually more effective?

 

Thank you.

 

Using RPM higher than 2600 doesn't appear to improve performance measurably. What it does do however is prevent engine damage when you throttle up. You should always increase RPM before throttle and reduce throttle before RPM.

I did some very rough trials of time to climb to 10000' at 2600 and 3000 RPM while maintaining 39" of manifold in each case throughout the climb. Higher RPM did not improve the climb performance at all in my very rough test so I don't bother using higher RPM for climb any more.

I have also had a couple of accidents when setting 3000 RPM before entering a fight. The idea was to unload the engine so I could be more free with manifold pressure changes but it also puts the engine dangerously close to overspeed condition. The CSU as modelled in the game lags quite a bit (several hundred RPM in the extreme) so entering even a short shallow dive at 3000 RPM runs a high risk of overspeeding the engine which leads to almost instant destruction in the game. So if you use an RPM above 2600 to improve engine flexibility 2800 might be a safer choice than 3000.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Dave

[Archie]

I'm sure I would get ripped to pieces even more than usual if I took my new P40 online, but it's a really nice plane to fly imo, one of my favourites so far.

[BlznSaddles]

Well I did try some flights with less than 50% fuel today and I do think the handling is greatly improved by this.  You can yank on the stick into tighter turns without stalling.  I had a decent fight with a 109 on WOL, I had an altitude advantage and managed to bounce him and land a couple hits but they didn't seem to hit much vital.  He managed to get on my tail but I was able to pull a lot tighter turns than he was and between that and the dive speed I was able to escape pretty easily.  This is a good combo for getting away from 109's:  Dive fast and when going really fast if he is still following pull a hard bank.  They can't do that (control surfaces get really heavy).

[Inkophile]

A question:

 

The specifications tab does state that combat power is 3000 RPM (basically 100% RPM) and something like 42 or 45" manifold pressure for a max of 5 minutes, yet you and some others have mentioned to stick the RPM to 70% and not mess with it afterwards.

 

Does this mean that you can gain the same thrust by staying at 70% RPM and just adding more throttle, or is the "stick to 70%" just a way to simplify engine management and going to 100% RPM for combat/emergency power is actually more effective?

 

Thank you.

 

I'll add some info/opinion that Dave already hasn't:

 

First the RPM percentages to use for maximum continuous and my preferred RPM for combat are 72-73% and 85% respectively.

 

85% gives you a lot of endurance, especially around the 42" mark. I really recommend not going above 45" with it because you risk blowing your engine with that low RPM.

 

100% RPM does definitely give more power, but as Dave said it is marginal and is mostly to prevent detonation. It also takes much more attentive and careful use of the throttle with that high RPM because even small adjustments will have a significant impact on your manifold pressure.

 

He also mentioned overspeeding, and the absolute overspeeding limit for the engine is 3100 RPM (red line on the dial) regardless of manifold pressure and will - as he says - wreck your engine immediately. It is almost impossible to reach that even with 100% RPM unless making a very sudden change in speed or overall making a high-power dive like a madman, but it is absolutely 100% impossible to reach it with 85% RPM set.

 

Most of the time I actually recommend saving your 3000 RPM till you really need to extend a zoom climb, or till you need to high-tail it out of there, because especially the latter case is where every second of available emergency power (be it 45" or 55") counts.

[Dave]

Most of the time I actually recommend saving your 3000 RPM till you really need to extend a zoom climb, or till you need to high-tail it out of there, because especially the latter case is where every second of available emergency power (be it 45" or 55") counts.

I save 3000 RPM for when I need it to drive the supercharger fast enough to maintain manifold pressure above critical altitude.

On the topic of the CSU lag I had a chat with a guy locally who maintains a Mustang and has years of experience working on Spits, Hurricanes, P40s, P51s and numerous other types. His opinion was that the lag I described on the BoX Allison was overdone. In his experience the CSU adjusts so fast he would not expect to ever see more than 100RPM variation from the set value. We didn't have a P40 on hand to test though. An old school friend of mine does own a 1710-39 though. I will ask him when I next get a chance.

 

 

I had an altitude advantage and managed to bounce him and land a couple hits but they didn't seem to hit much vital.

Your approach sounds pretty sound to me. Add in a wingman and you'll be dangerous in the P40. The Kittyhawk's main weakness is its underwhelming thrust-to-weight ratio, so having a wingman flying combat spread will save you those energy depleting turns to clear your six every 20 or so seconds.

I have actually had quite a bit of success BnZing 109s as long as I start with a substantial altitude advantage and zoom as efficiently as I can - avoiding the temptation to start turning with him. While the P40 should outturn a 109 most of the time - it is costly and the 109 rebuilds that lost energy much faster. So I treat the P40 as a BnZ machine and save the turn performance for later. It's also kinda satisfying giving them some of their own medicine in a machine that isn't really made for it.

 

The P40's aces in the hole are being able to dive like a rock and fill the convergence zone with a large mass of .50. But as you seem to have discovered getting it all to hit something isn't as straightforward as some other types. Setting convergence correctly is more critical for guns mounted well out on the wings like the P40 armament.

For the P40 I tend these days to set it at 200m and fly right up their arses before firing. At this convergence you usually have all 6 guns connecting with the same small are of the target for good effect. While the M2 shoots pretty flat, a 200m horizontal convergence unfortunately also makes high deflection shots likely to be blind if you shoot while pulling. So try not to shoot while pulling G. If the game was a little more realistic in this regard you wouldn't want to do that anyway because your guns would tend to jam easily. If you fly in the future (ie predict where your target is likely to be) and unload before firing nice and close the P40 will tear him a new one.

 

EDIT: I forgot to mention a couple of things.

1. That 109 you were able to outturn sustained was probably not an E7. Be wary of turn fighting an Emil even in the P40. They seem to outperform the F4 and G2 in this respect.

2. You may find it interesting to know that the Polish pilots of 303 SQN set their convergence to 100 yards (less in some cases), well inside the 250 yards used by most RAF Spitfire pilots. They were the highest scoring unit of the RAF. They fired at really close range. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Dave

[CIA_Yankee_]

Flew my P40 yesterday, which sadly ended rather disastrously, and really I have no one to blame but myself (well, ok, the 109s shooting me probably deserve some blame, they were guilty of impeding the glorious bolshevik revolution after all).

 

Basically, I didn't make it a point to keep my E up before making contact. One time I went low trying to find a friendly who was in trouble instead of keeping my alt up, then when I couldn't find the fight I ran into a 109 flying about 300 feet above me. I should probably have tried to hose him with my .50 cals on the first pass but wasn't _quite_ sure of ID... and by the time I was sure our relative energy states made it super easy for him to slot in on my tail. That initial merge was my only chance to get out of that one alive, quite frankly. 

 

Another time I stayed lowish to cover bombers, but I was with friendlies so it wasn't so bad. My mistake was that when hostiles showed up I tried to constantly keep a bead on my target to try and shoot it down, and burned all energy I had staying deep in the dogfight (there were quite a few of us). I should have focused on keeping my E up and making slashing passes at the enemies as they tried to take on the bombers and other fighters. As it was, however, by the time a 109 decided to focus on me, there was nothing I could do. Friendlies did shoot him off my tail, but I had to crash land (just over the front line too, so at least I was safe ).

 

Additionally, I need to get out of the terrible habit of just trying to outturn anything on my 6 when low on altitude. That may work in a Yak or Spit (usually), but in Migs and P-40s vs 109s that's suicide. Need to learn to roll more when dodging, basically.

 

Anyway, lesson is, P-40 is a challenge. Keep your energy up, even if you think you're heading in a safe situation. Because the moment a 109 catches you in a low-E situation, you have basically no options besides forcing a lucky head on (which any 109 would be wise to deny, given the disparity in durability and firepower), or hoping some buddies show up.

[Dave]

 

 

Another time I stayed lowish to cover bombers, but I was with friendlies so it wasn't so bad. My mistake was that when hostiles showed up I tried to constantly keep a bead on my target to try and shoot it down, and burned all energy I had staying deep in the dogfight (there were quite a few of us). I should have focused on keeping my E up and making slashing passes at the enemies as they tried to take on the bombers and other fighters. As it was, however, by the time a 109 decided to focus on me, there was nothing I could do. Friendlies did shoot him off my tail, but I had to crash land (just over the front line too, so at least I was safe ).

The best part about a melee is it keeps them distracted while you extend and build energy to return with altitude. Don't be in one if you can help it - especially in a P40 . 

 

 

Additionally, I need to get out of the terrible habit of just trying to outturn anything on my 6 when low on altitude. That may work in a Yak or Spit (usually), but in Migs and P-40s vs 109s that's suicide. Need to learn to roll more when dodging, basically.

We need to turn just enough to defeat a firing solution. Any less is dead and any more is wasted precious E. The issue is that online lag makes this really hard to judge.

[Dave]

Something to consider is the effect of the 109's variable incidence tailplane. It takes a while to move from neutral to full up and back again. What this means is that on turn entry you have a clear advantage if close to corner speed. But as his tailplane catches up to his trim input the 109 will haul its nose around quicker than you with less energy loss (oddly despite its much higher wing loading). But I've seen some excellent examples of using this now full-up trim against the 109 driver. If you are going quick enough and have altitude roll inverted and pull, then repeat. Alternatively push the nose down - he won't be able to and will slowly roll inverted to follow - right about when you are pulling up again. During all this his higher energy retention may carry him forward of your wing line where you can chew him up with 6 x .50.

 

Stay fast - ie above 300mph if possible and definitely above 200. If you are slow the 109 should still turn worse than you but his slats (that always seem to deploy evenly) take away your advantage here. Double bad if the 109 is an E7.

IN your P40 (and anything else for that matter) don't stay underneath a 109 in some futile effort to climb up to him. Gain lateral separation for two reasons:

- to attack you he will need to convert some of that energy laterally where it can't be retained as well as vertically; and

- it gives you turning room - even a head on pass is better for you than him

[Archie]

Is there any advantage ingame to just take 4x50 cals with extra ammo? More manouvrability without the weight of the guns?

[Dave]

Is there any advantage ingame to just take 4x50 cals with extra ammo? More manouvrability without the weight of the guns?

 

Substantially longer firing time for only 33% lower weight of fire and slightly improved roll rate.

[CIA_Yankee_]

Substantially longer firing time for only 33% lower weight of fire and slightly improved roll rate.

 

The question is though, in an aircraft where you depend more on quick slashing attacks and bounces to win, and generally will struggle to keep any sustained firing solutions (tailing a 109 for any length of time is a dicey proposition), having massive firepower is a definite advantage.

 

That being said, 4 .50 cals is still very powerful compared to most contemporary fighters, and having so much firing time allows you to be more aggressive with your "hail mary" potshots.

 

So, really, it's a difficult tradeoff. Personally, I keep the 6 guns, if only because having a massive ammo load may lead me to develop a bad habit. The lesser ammo count, but stronger firepower, forces me to make every shot count and be more disciplined.

[BlznSaddles]

I always take 6 guns.  That is the P40's most formidable asset, might as well not neuter it there... It has a pretty long firing time compared to other fighters even without taking the extra ammo.  And it always has the same "quality" of fire... no cannons to run out early.

[Dave]

I always take 6 guns.  That is the P40's most formidable asset, might as well not neuter it there... It has a pretty long firing time compared to other fighters even without taking the extra ammo.  And it always has the same "quality" of fire... no cannons to run out early.

 

I take 6 guns when I'm planning an air-to-air sortie - 4 guns when primarily strafing ground targets.

It has been a while since I last used it all but IIRC one nice thing with the 6 guns is that 2 run out of ammo before the other 4 providing you with a bit of warning before you are Winchester.