Noob: How to dogfight in the P-40?

[sniperton]

Now that I've (sort of) learnt all allied aircrafts, I set up a 1:1 dogfight against a veteran AI Bf-109 E7 in the QMB to test my skills (which are humble, hence the E7). Altitude 3000, separation 6000, full CEM, 100% fuel on both sides.

 

I found that defeating the E7 is a milk run in the Yak, easy in the La-5 and the MiG, a bit of a challenge in the LaGG, a major challenge in the Rata, a bit tricky in the Spit, but I'm completely lost with the P-40.

 

It seems that the E7 can outrun, outturn, outclimb, and outdive me, it feels superior both in the horizontal and the vertical. Probably I miss something, or I'm too careful with the engine, who knows? Apart from head-ons (which is a gamble), I can't even work out a firing solution <400m. I literally feel as an underdog.

 

Any ideas/tips would be most welcome.

 

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

P-40 with 100% fuel is problematic.  Try each plane at 50% fuel and see if that helps.

[VesseL]

My experience comes from dogfighting against a p40. I have never flown it myself. Its as good dogfighter as 109, or even little better. If the pilots are equally good it is close dogfight 109 vs p40 i think. So maybe its about the same as La5 as a dogfighter, or even little better. My 2 cent guess.

[Guest deleted@134347]

p40 can turn as good as spit (imho) but it does lose the energy much quicker so you must keep an eye on the airspeed at all times. Also at WEP in a dive you must keep an eye on the manifold pressure and throttle back as it doesn't have an rpm governor and will overspeed and blow the engine up. P40 is all about the deflection shots at .30 and .40, so just keep practicing those...

[=RvE=Windmills]

As far as I can tell you should never try to DF with it unless you know you can end it within a few seconds. Its only strength seems to be its guns.

[Ribbon]

mount gimbal cannons!

[BlznSaddles]

With the P40 especially, always attack from advantage... better E, better altitude or both. The guns pack a punch. The 109 can certainly outclimb and out accelerate the p40, and the 109e is pretty good in the turns as well although I can usually out turn it in the p40. If you have got the underdog plane you have to pick and choose your battles.

[Lensman]

mount gimbal cannons!

 

You'll be after beam lasers and plasma cannons next ... 

[sniperton]

Thanks guys, meanwhile I succeeded 3 consecutive times with 100% fuel. Together with what you mentioned, I think the most important things are:

 

1) For whatever reason the QMB mission starts with rads fully open. 20% shall be fine and will reduce drag.

2) Not vital, but a bit of positive elevator trim (~15-20%) helps you in turns and loops.

3) RPM set to ~60% frees you from micro-managing the engine. You only have to adjust throttle here and then.

3) The P-40 has to be flown more gently and 'elastically' than other planes, avoiding hard stick movements, and a fine and coordinated rudder input is essential to do so. Otherwise it bleeds energy terribly.

4) Maintaining speed is vital for many reasons. At higher speeds you seem to have more control authority than the 109 has. At higher speeds you can outturn it, while at lower speeds you fall out of the sky if you try to do so.

 

I must say I like this plane more and more. It requires me to become smarter

[Inkophile]

Too much fuel is a very good point. The P-40 can take a lot of fuel (560 litres/148 gallons) and doesn't use it very fast. For a already heavy plane it has a significant impact on its manoeuvrability.

It has the best turn rate in the game though, and can for a short while after a dive sustain a whopping 550 kph for about 45 seconds, so it can compete quite decently in level speed.

Also remember to close your radiator shutter to 15% or less unless flying slow at high power.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Inkompetent

[[TWB]80hd]

Get good with your .50s.  You are a great dogfighter but you're on a timer against an E-fighting enemy, because your engine is terrible (comparatively).  If you can get rounds on target early on, even if you don't kill them, you're going to be shifting the balance in your favor.

 

In my opinion, against an equally skilled 109 or 190 pilot, you want to be aggressive... you want to end the fight fast, because the longer it drags out, the more you are at a disadvantage. 

 

- You can outdive anything else in the sky, as far as I know

- Your guns will shred anything, I would personally put them out at 500m, but that's probably not a popular opinion, your mileage may vary.

- Don't pop your engine, but get everything out of it that you can

[Cpt_Siddy]

Some p-40 engine management tips? Anyone? 

[BlznSaddles]

Engine management is very altitude related in the p40. Rads at 20%, RPM at 70% [EDIT], Manifold Pressure below 40, you can fly around all day like that. As altitude increases you’re gonna have to keep increasing the throttle until at last you can’t keep the manifold pressure high anymore. If fighting above about 12k you can just boost RPM up to 100% for a short time, you won’t be able to overboost the engine at altitude but the high RPM will start the destruction timer. At low alt you can run 100%RPM and 40MAP for about 5 minutes. If you peg the MAP and the RPM expect your engine to explode in a minute or so.

Edited October 27, 2017 by BlznSaddles

[56RAF_Roblex]

1) For whatever reason the QMB mission starts with rads fully open. 20% shall be fine and will reduce drag.

 

 

Actually, once above 175mph you can close the rads completely.

Edited October 26, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[sniperton]

Yes, Sir!

[Field-Ops]

P40 excels at low altitude engine power wise. But at the same time, altitude will be needed to keep your advantage up against an enemy aware that you are there. The most successful P40 pilots I've met online stayed on the deck and cruised hugging the trees rather undetected. Once they saw an enemy they could reach in a pounce they cranked up the engine and power climbed for a strike. The .50s do a number on german aircrafts so usually only one pass was needed. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

P40 excels at low altitude engine power wise. But at the same time, altitude will be needed to keep your advantage up against an enemy aware that you are there. The most successful P40 pilots I've met online stayed on the deck and cruised hugging the trees rather undetected. Once they saw an enemy they could reach in a pounce they cranked up the engine and power climbed for a strike. The .50s do a number on german aircrafts so usually only one pass was needed. 

 

I have this nasty habit of setting the convergence to 600m and just HAIL MARY some poor 109 800m away in to oil/water rad :D 

[BlznSaddles]

I have usually left the RPM at 70% and worked the throttle to keep the MP out of combat mode until I need it. Above 72% RPM (2600 IIRC) you'll be in Combat Mode all the time which is not what you want.

 

Yes this is correct, not 60% as I posted.  Not enough coffee I guess.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

why practise dogfights with 100% fuel.

Almost no plane could/would ever do that unless midair refueling.
even then almost all have combat load ratings.

More fuel means more weight means more loading in turns.

[Venturi]

My opinion is that the P40 does best at 10,000 feet.

 

If you have greater energy than your target 109, you have the performance advantage transiently.

 

If you have equal energy then you better be in a good position, because the well-flown 109 will simply play the energy game and you will be in trouble pretty soon.

 

If you have lower energy, than you should run away if he has not already seen you.

 

Dogfighting with the P40 is a losing game if the other guy in a 109 knows what he is doing.

 

You do not turn better at low speed than a 109, even with maximum engine power (which = engine catastrophe in a few minutes).

 

This has changed recently since the 2.012 patch was originally released. In the first version of 2.012, I was able to outturn a 109F4 at near stall speed on the deck in a protracted, equal turn fight - only with maximum power.

 

In the current version, 2.012d, you cannot (but it should be possible that you can in a P40E vs 109F4...).

 

The open slats do not cause enough drag to the 109, is my hypothesis.

[Cpt_Siddy]

Why do the P-40 whine about the 100% mixture? 

[Farky]

From specifications of P-40 in game -

 

Engine is equipped with an automatic fuel mixture control which maintains optimal mixture if mixture lever is set to Auto Rich (66%) position. To use automatic mixture leaning to reduce fuel consumption during flight it is necessary to set mixture lever to Auto Lean (33%) position. In the case of mulfunction of the automatic mixture control the mixture lever should be set to Full Rich (100%) position. To stop the engine mixture lever should be set to the Cut Off (0%) position.

[56RAF_Roblex]

Why do the P-40 whine about the 100% mixture? 

 

 

From specifications of P-40 in game -

 

Engine is equipped with an automatic fuel mixture control which maintains optimal mixture if mixture lever is set to Auto Rich (66%) position. To use automatic mixture leaning to reduce fuel consumption during flight it is necessary to set mixture lever to Auto Lean (33%) position. In the case of mulfunction of the automatic mixture control the mixture lever should be set to Full Rich (100%) position. To stop the engine mixture lever should be set to the Cut Off (0%) position.

 

Not following.  Do you mean people complain about having to put the mixture to 66%? 

 

Most of the time you would never touch it again.  The fact that someone has written down the rare times when you might change it does not alter the fact that almost all the aircraft have a variable mixture but have a position you can leave it in for 99% of your flying.  Technically most aircraft will perform marginally better if you adjust the mixture as you climb but it does not a make a big difference and the P40 is no more touchy about mixture than any other aircraft.

 

Apologies if I misunderstood the reference.

Edited October 29, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Inkophile]

 

 

Not following. Do you mean people complain about having to put the mixture to 66%?

 

66% is the default setting for the fuel, i.e. the planes starts with AUTO RICH. Only reason to change is fuel economy, in which case it should be set to AUTO LEAN (33%). Afaik FULL RICH has no function in the game since as far as I know the automatic fuel mixture regulator can't fail. If not running at emergency power FULL RICH ought to foul the engine really fast too, but as far as I know we don't have engine fouling modeled in the game either, so if anything it's just loss of power because of excess fuel.

[Leon_Portier]

Whats the mixture, so the engine doesnt stop working? I keep blowing my engine.

[sniperton]

Mixture plays little role.

Set your RPM to 60-70%.

Enable techchat. It will tell you whether you're in continious/combat/emergency power. Adjust your throttle so that you use continious power most of the time, combat power only when you really need it (up to 5 minutes), and emergency power only when your life is at risk (for 1 minute).

[Inkophile]

Whats the mixture, so the engine doesnt stop working? I keep blowing my engine.

 

Don't touch the mixture unless you want to save fuel. As I wrote in the previous post it is in AUTO RICH per default, which is exactly the setting you want to run at for high performance.

 

What you need to do is to keep the RPM between 2650 and 2800 in combat, and the manifold pressure at around 42". For continuous power, keep the RPM at less than 2650, and the manifold pressure at less than 40". 3000 RPM and higher manifold pressures are reserved for take-off and very brief boosts of power in combat. I'd aim for never going above 45" of power to be on the safe side, since misjudging the amount of throttle required or rapid changes in altitude or speed can make the manifold skyrocket in no time at all.

[GridiroN]

I bought the P40 when it was on sale at the start of the month. I've been flying it fairly consistently since. 

 

In my humble opinion, the P40 has 2 large, but narrow strengths and a handful of big disadvantages. 

 

Strength 1: It can follow 109s in a non-extending dive, and has a superior roll rate so they cannot split S away from you.   

 

Engage 109, wait for them to predictably try to dive away from you, turn them into swiss cheese. Few 109 pilots I've encountered are good enough to know the correct deflection to dive away at so as to deny me easy shots. 

 

Strength 2:  If you can get it going fast, it will stay fast with proper energy conservation. 

 

When the P40 is at energy, or advantaged, it tends to remain that way so long as you keep it on the vertical plane. 

 

Disadvantage 1: The engine is horrific

 

Not only is the engine complicated, it requires intensive mothering, and adjustment in combat. Following a 109 into a climb, the engine will now be overly weak, requiring MP increase, then following a dive, the engine will be overly strong and again require MP pressure decrease. 

 

Disadvantage 2: The plane will pretty much land itself if you miss judge energy states of enemies. 

 

The plane is an absolute savage to bad pilots. If you lose energy, you're never getting it back unless your opponent is very bad. 

 

Disadvantage 3: The alotted combat time is insufficient for the time required to down an opponent if you didn't surprise him, and he's not terrible. 

 

 

Whats the mixture, so the engine doesnt stop working? I keep blowing my engine.

 

You're blowing your engine because you're not managing your manifold pressure and/or throttling up too quickly. 

[von-Luck]

Huge grain of salt here as I don't own and have never flown the P40 in this. My take on an aircraft that is inferior to your competition is to minimize your shortcomings via energy delta. If your plane performs worst than your opponents then attempt to place yourself in a situation that is as lopsided to your advantage as possible. I wouldn't take a P40 up and think to myself "the first thing I need to do in this is get in a swirling dogfight." I would approach using this plane instead in the bounce. Gain the advantage and sustain that advantage - Seek to use your E advantage to leverage the kill. certainly easier said than done but that would be my take on flying something like this.

 

von Luck

[ShamrockOneFive]

Huge grain of salt here as I don't own and have never flown the P40 in this. My take on an aircraft that is inferior to your competition is to minimize your shortcomings via energy delta. If your plane performs worst than your opponents then attempt to place yourself in a situation that is as lopsided to your advantage as possible. I wouldn't take a P40 up and think to myself "the first thing I need to do in this is get in a swirling dogfight." I would approach using this plane instead in the bounce. Gain the advantage and sustain that advantage - Seek to use your E advantage to leverage the kill. certainly easier said than done but that would be my take on flying something like this.

 

von Luck

 

That's exactly right and pretty much the kind of tactic that the Flying Tigers used. Plus some observation work to pinpoint enemy formations.

 

Basically, ambush the enemy from above and behind and then get the hell out of there. You don't stick around for a glorious dogfight. The P-40 is much scrappier than that!

[BlznSaddles]

The guns and dive speed are also a good selling point of the P40.  Found out today they do a number on submarines in WOL, that is a blast to do if you haven't tried it yet.

[Wulf]

If the model we have is at all accurate, I really feel for the poor bastards who had to fight in the thing because frankly, it seems dreadful.  That said, I suspect it could be of limited utility if flown in much the same way as you would a 190.    Enter the combat area at altitude, find a distracted enemy below you and boom and zoom him.  If it starts going pear-shaped, try and climb back out of reach or put the nose down and run.  I'm not suggesting the aircraft is as capable as a 190 but I do suspect the same type of tactics are your only real hope.  There are a couple of guys online who fly it and fly it well but they're always at a significant disadvantage and typically they don't last long.  

[sniperton]

I'm eager to fly the P-40 against human opponents, but I need a server where icons are enabled. 'Cause otherwise I don't see sh.t. (My fault, small display)

As to SP, I find that the P-40, when flown adequately, can defeat a G2 or G4.

Edited November 1, 2017 by sniperton

[19//Moach]

keep in mind, the P40 is not designed to do combat maneuvers with fuel in the rear tank.

 

that means, for combat, you should have no more than 50% fuel

 

 

 

much like the P51, the P40 is unstable and has a bad CoG when there's fuel in its "travel tank".  It's endurance is quite excellent, however. Even with a 50% combat load, it still flies for well over an hour at max. continuous power and much longer if you go down to "prius mode" with auto-lean settings (2250rpm@32")

 

 

anyways, the '40 turns well at near-stall speeds, and can be flown such as to out-stall a 109.   Alas, it takes a formidably inept opponent to actually fall into a trap like that and stay with you on a no-energy, no-options turn fight.  Any 109 can easily fly away from the engagement using his superior engine and climb capability.

 

 

So, the P40 is a very good plane to learn and practice your tactics.  You'll be very well outclassed by anything besides stukas and heavy bombers.  Even 110s must be treated with respect, as they can turn with you and like 109s, are capable of turning the fight against you with more capable engines.

 

On the other side, there is very little that can survive even a short burst from the viciously generous firepower you have at hand.  Get them at convergence and pull the trigger, then watch your problem disappear.

 

Just be alert and quick about it. Keep any energy you have.  Do not use more than 30% rads (you don't ever need more in flight and some variants of the P40 had a placard saying to never open past neutral (30%) above 140mph, yet those had the same cowling flap design so the message should apply to the Kittyhawk just the same)

 

 

It is quite an educational type.    It teaches you to use your brains before you use your plane.

Edited November 1, 2017 by 19//Moach

[BlznSaddles]

keep in mind, the P40 is not designed to do combat maneuvers with fuel in the rear tank.

 

that means, for combat, you should have no more than 50% fuel

 

 

 

much like the P51, the P40 is unstable and has a bad CoG when there's fuel in its "travel tank".  It's endurance is quite excellent, however. Even with a 50% combat load, it still flies for well over an hour at max. continuous power and much longer if you go down to "prius mode" with auto-lean settings (2250rpm@32")

 

 

anyways, the '40 turns well at near-stall speeds, and can be flown such as to out-stall a 109.   Alas, it takes a formidably inept opponent to actually fall into a trap like that and stay with you on a no-energy, no-options turn fight.  Any 109 can easily fly away from the engagement using his superior engine and climb capability.

 

 

So, the P40 is a very good plane to learn and practice your tactics.  You'll be very well outclassed by anything besides stukas and heavy bombers.  Even 110s must be treated with respect, as they can turn with you and like 109s, are capable of turning the fight against you with more capable engines.

 

On the other side, there is very little that can survive even a short burst from the viciously generous firepower you have at hand.  Get them at convergence and pull the trigger, then watch your problem disappear.

 

Just be alert and quick about it. Keep any energy you have.  Do not use more than 30% rads (you don't ever need more in flight and some variants of the P40 had a placard saying to never open past neutral (30%) above 140mph, yet those had the same cowling flap design so the message should apply to the Kittyhawk just the same)

 

 

It is quite an educational type.    It teaches you to use your brains before you use your plane.

 

I'll have to try it with 50% fuel as well.  I usually load it with 75% but I have never come close to running out.  Maybe it will help with the abysmal climb rate as well!

[Inkophile]

I'll have to try it with 50% fuel as well.  I usually load it with 75% but I have never come close to running out.  Maybe it will help with the abysmal climb rate as well!

 

330-350 litres is pretty perfect imo. Gives fully adequate endurance (30+ minutes at maximum continuous. Up to an hour if you fly with some fuel economy), and you'll be down more or less to half tank by the time you find an enemy.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Inkompetent

[Dave]

The P40 has internal capacity for long range ferry. It only needs about 33% of this to have the same endurance as a 109.

[Dave]

p40 can turn as good as spit (imho) but it does lose the energy much quicker so you must keep an eye on the airspeed at all times. Also at WEP in a dive you must keep an eye on the manifold pressure and throttle back as it doesn't have an rpm governor and will overspeed and blow the engine up. P40 is all about the deflection shots at .30 and .40, so just keep practicing those...

P40 can turn with a Spit ... once then you are out of energy.

 

My experience comes from dogfighting against a p40. I have never flown it myself. Its as good dogfighter as 109, or even little better. If the pilots are equally good it is close dogfight 109 vs p40 i think. So maybe its about the same as La5 as a dogfighter, or even little better. My 2 cent guess.

This is pretty laughable. You need to try flying it I think.

[sniperton]

It is quite an educational type.    It teaches you to use your brains before you use your plane.

 

I fully agree. The Yak-1b doesn't force you to think ahead and to become a better and more disciplined pilot, but the P-40 does.

[Dutchvdm]

The P40 has internal capacity for long range ferry. It only needs about 33% of this to have the same endurance as a 109.

 

This is not representative for the implementation in the game:

 

From the stat pages.

 

P-40E-1

Fuel load: 404 kg / 561 l

Flight endurance at 3000 m: 2.8 h, at 350 km/h IAS.

 

Bf 109 F-4

Fuel load: 304 kg / 400 l

Flight endurance at 3000 m: 2.6 h, at 350 km/h IAS.

 

So range is better then the 109, but not by a large margin to be honest.

 

Grt M