109 Woes

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

It is my Luftwaffe month, and things are getting to be un-fun when not flying ground attack. Is there any "trick" to not feeling like I am flying a freight train with the 109?

 

If a target sees me, it seems like they can repeatedly spoil shot after shot with impunity. I try to keep my speed up, and keep things vertical, and have been stalling guys out, but can never bring the nose back around fast enough to exploit it for a shot.

 

Unless I am able to guess ahead of time what action the target is going to take, I seem to have little chance of a firing solution because for whatever reason I can't pull lead on anything smaller than a PE2. In other words, if forced to react to target action, I cannot maneuver well enough to counter it.

 

My only kills against aware targets have been with a wingman. One on one, the fights just drag on forever and ever until I [edited] fly off in frustration, or help arrives for one side.

 

So what should I change up? What can I change about how I am flying in order to start having some success against these guys?

 

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Edited October 19, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[curiousGamblerr]

Dumb question first: You know about the 109 stabilizer?

[216th_Jordan]

Preset the stabilizer before entering combat. -50% gives good average instantaneous turn performance, if you want to turn more at a slower speed you can go down to -30 or even -20. But extended turning is not what you want to do in the 109. When the elevator locks up its definitely time to pull up and reposition. This bird is not a Yak, you can't throw it around like crazy, you need to be a bit more careful. Try to gain an energy advantage on every move (work incredibly well in the 109).

 

You can also outscissor enemies coming from behind rather well, it just needs a bit of practice.

 

Regarding repositioning there are multiple manouvers you can do, from top of my head what works in most situations:

- lag displacement roll

- high yoyo

 

You have to get an eye for what the enemy is able and likely to do, mostly it comes apparent rather fast, just don't hang on a bandits 6 for an extended time, that way you lose you situational awareness.

Edited October 19, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[Leon_Portier]

Sounds like the stabilizer isn´t just a trim.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

So before jumping in, set it to 50% nose-down?

[=RvE=Windmills]

They are bleeding energy every single time they have to avoid you, and if you fly properly they can never get a shot back in.

 

There is really not much of a trick to it, if you are boom and zooming and your target sees you coming they will be able to avoid you. Granted they see you in time and make the right manoeuvre obviously. Not entirely sure what you are asking really, you either keep doing it until they don't see you coming for once, or you do it for long enough until they are forced down to the deck and lack the energy to avoid your attacks. If they have lots of alt and situational awareness then the fight will last a long time yes.

 

That is the mechanics of it, and the price of being able to engage with almost zero risk to your own plane.

 

Or you can learn to DF, have some fun.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Windmills

[GridiroN]

Set the stabilizer to -50 in combat. -50 in cruise will reduce your acceleration and top speed pretty significantly.

 

The 109 is harder than it used to be now as it's control surfaces lock hard at speed and the stabilizer is too slow to manipulate mid combat.

 

That being said, it's still easy to fly if you adhere to the principles of good energy usage, like using climbs to change direction, nosing down to accelerate, not falling for traps, etc.

 

The problem with the 109 is whilst it's very forgiving on the pilot, it makes it very easy for the pilot to get sloppy and make mistakes. I've been shot down by 109s who genuinely flew terribly and still won the engagement.

 

I'd recommend watching some requiem and Sherriff videos. Those helped me the most in understanding a lot of basic mistakes in energy usage.

 

To be honest, whilst people make fun of how EZ Mode the 109 is, I find it rather difficult to get kills in. I don't know why but I find it a very unintuitive plane to fight in. I much prefer Russian vehicles but most of them suffer severe disadvantages.

Edited October 19, 2017 by GridiroN

[216th_Jordan]

I dont think the 109 is easy mode - unless you know exactly how to use it, then it really is.

[FuriousMeow]

Don't expect a "kill" everytime, I don't get why this is such a thing playing these games. "Every engagement should be a kill", and if lost then something isn't right or something else that makes no sense.

 

Fly, learn the plane, learn the adversaries, engage when you have the upper hand or can gain the upper hand but there will be times disengaging is winning.

Edited October 19, 2017 by FuriousMeow

[Lensman]

I had great difficulty with the bf-109 until I started flying in VR and then it all came together. Primarily because my deflection shooting improved 100% immediately! Keeping altitude is the key, for me at least. Always engage an enemy from above unless it's a bomber without a rear gunner and you have caught it up easily. I'm no 109 expert though, I spend more time in the fw-190.

By the way ...

How the Hell do you get the 109 to taxi to the right on the ground?!

I can get it going left using the brake and some speed but it refuses to go right unless I'm going fast enough to nearly take off! I've tried stick back (tail wheel lock), stick forward and rudder all over the place. HOW IS IT DONE?!

[curiousGamblerr]

I had great difficulty with the bf-109 until I started flying in VR and then it all came together. Primarily because my deflection shooting improved 100% immediately! Keeping altitude is the key, for me at least. Always engage an enemy from above unless it's a bomber without a rear gunner and you have caught it up easily. I'm no 109 expert though, I spend more time in the fw-190.

By the way ...

How the Hell do you get the 109 to taxi to the right on the ground?!

I can get it going left using the brake and some speed but it refuses to go right unless I'm going fast enough to nearly take off! I've tried stick back (tail wheel lock), stick forward and rudder all over the place. HOW IS IT DONE?!

Stick back to lock tail wheel is just a FW thing. The 109 has a tail lock controlled by a button in game. It starts locked so you need to unlock it to turn well during taxi.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Don't expect a "kill" everytime, I don't get why this is such a thing playing these games. "Every engagement should be a kill", and if lost then something isn't right or something else that makes no sense.

 

Fly, learn the plane, learn the adversaries, engage when you have the upper hand or can gain the upper hand but there will be times disengaging is winning.

Nobody here is asking for a kill every sortie. I am having a very specific issue with the 109; and others have given me some suggestions on how to deal with it, that I plan to try out tonight.

 

No need to try and read into a thread whatever it is you might be looking for.

Edited October 19, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Lensman]

Stick back to lock tail wheel is just a FW thing. The 109 has a tail lock controlled by a button in game. It starts locked so you need to unlock it to turn well during taxi.

That explains a lot. Thank you!

[ShamrockOneFive]

I like the Bf109 quite a lot even though I don't consider it a favourite. In my time flying it I think its best to fly it with a bit of restraint. Both it and the FW190 are hunters rather than dogfighters and that makes them extremely dangerous and capable if flown to their strengths.

 

The Bf109 has its own unique challenges but generally I'd say that you should keep high, dive on targets, throttle back a bit during the dive (the Bf109 accelerates rapidly and you don't need too much extra speed), and anticipate their turn. If they go evasive you shouldn't try to put your gunsight on the target. Pull off and reposition. The Bf109 is all about the positioning for the kill. Let him burn energy in horizontal turns while you go vertical and either reposition completely or go into a high yo-yo and come back down on him on the other side of the turn. Eventually you'll either bleed his energy and keep him low and slow or eventually you'll good beat on him for a deflection kill.

 

Gunnery is also really important. Aim to strike on the first shot if you can. When you are in gun range you want to be there for a minimal amount of time. Go for the killing shot right away and try not to pull the trigger until you're in position.

[FuriousMeow]

Nobody here is asking for a kill every sortie. I am having a very specific issue with the 109; and others have given me some suggestions on how to deal with it, that I plan to try out tonight.

 

No need to try and read into a thread whatever it is you might be looking for.

 

I'm only responding to you, but when you say "flying off in frustration" says to me that while you managed to live - the fact you didn't get a kill means that you think you should have.

 

If you want to have success with the 109, you have to anticipate flight direction of the target - there is no one way to explain this, but definitely do not follow in a split-S and if they go vertical do not pull hard Gs to follow but do a slow loop - and not pure vertical since that is going to get you shot down almost everytime, and in turns you can do a sine/cosine pattern that will give you more vertical and cut down into the flat turn the allied plane is almost always doing.

 

You'll still be exposed to other allies, so it is not wise to do anything other than hit and run at low altitudes which requires proper jumping techniques. That, again, is with experience but dive on them and come up quickly on their rear six from below then high tail it out of there climbing.

Edited October 20, 2017 by FuriousMeow

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Flying off in frustration because this particular problem frustrates me and I didn't know what to do about it other than fly away (with a Russian trailing behind in futility). Frustrating because I know there is *something* to do about it, but not knowing what. Do you get what I'm saying? If I were frustrated by not getting a "kill" I suppose I'd just ragequit when I got shot down too.

 

That said, I appreciate the constructive advice in your last post.

[-SF-Disarray]

One thing to keep in mind with the 109 is that the engine isn't that much more powerful than some of its adversaries. It is certainly more powerful but it mostly shows through in acceleration and climbing. You can use this in a fight, supposing that it is a fight and not an ambush. This means that vertical maneuvers are your friend in a 109 more so than horizontal. I remember the fight I had with you last night. I caught you out, a bit unaware of me and you reacted about as well as you could have at first, given the circumstances. You dove away and picked up some speed. Then you dropped into some turns and spoiled your first reaction. I was able to keep up with you in those turns for the most part and landed shots home that ultimately put you down. As I recall, you tried to ditch me in a cloud. This can work but only at longer ranges, 800 m to 1 km I think thought it might be further than that. As close as I was, I'd guess I was about 500 m behind you when you dove for the clouds, I could make out your plane through the clouds and stick with you as your turned.

 

For getting a plane off your six you may find it more advantageous to employ flaps, barrel rolls and generally lowering the speed and energy of the whole fight. This seems counter productive but for one fact: the 109 has leading edge slats that give it superior low energy performance to a Yak, LaGG, or Mig. It is a bit risky but you can force an over shoot if your opponent is either not paying close enough attention or simply going to fast to avoid the over shoot; and given the alternative of getting shot and killed I think you will find it worth the risk. The LA 5, though, also has leading edge slats so you may have trouble with that plane. Understanding these tactics, along with vertical maneuvers you will find that the 109 is in fact quite an effective plane in a prolonged fight.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I think I remember that. Kalach bridge?

 

The rational part of me was thinking that I should just separate and reposition; but I had been flying for so long that I wanted a little action, any action. :D

 

Honestly sometimes when I start flying erratically it's because I can't see you. A lot of times I think I'll be climbing, but I'm looking for you and unaware that I'm turning. I don't know if that was the case last night. I think we had multiple run-ins. The other thing is that I sometimes think they are closer than they are and try to change direction a little to spoil their aim, but I don't think that happened here either. Either I was just feeling like maneuvering, or there was someone else around and I was trying to make a slash on them while keeping you far enough behind (unsuccessfully). If it's the engagement I am thinking of.

 

If it happened on the map after, no idea what I was doing. I was pretty gone by then

 

Thank you for the hot wash on our engagement! I have some new knowledge to try for next time.

Edited October 20, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[-SF-Disarray]

The only time I distinctly remember fighting you last night was on a Stalingrad mission and there were a few other Soviet planes in the area, German ones too. Climbing and turning can work in a 109, provided your opponent starts below you or at a lower energy state; that is they are going slow than you in most cases. If you make a wide, sweeping cork screw kind of turn while climbing you can extend the vertical distance between you and your opponent. This takes advantage of the fantastic climb rate of most of the 109s and if your opponent cooperates you can keep an eye on them most of the time while you are doing it. The trick here, and in any climbing maneuver in the 109 is to not be over confident in its climbing ability. It is still a piston driven plane at the end of the day, not a rocket. If you try going strait up or even just climb rather aggressively you can and will be caught by a Yak; and nothing climbs faster than a bullet. Still I'm not a fan of saying there is never a time for aggressive climbing, or any other maneuver for that matter. You just have to know how and when to do it and make sure the situation you are in is suitable for the maneuver.

 

Situational awareness is a bit of a tricky topic. I'm not exactly sure how to describe proper SA... I don't fly the 109s very often so I often find I'm losing targets behind support members for the canopy where as in the Soviet planes I've gotten used to looking around them. It is one of those things that come with time, I think, and practice. One thing I can say, definitively, will help with SA is to fly with another person and if you can talk to them it is all the better. 2 people looking out for one another tend to miss less in observation and it is always nice to have help close to hand when you find yourself in over your head.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Disarray

[Mac_Messer]

So what should I change up? What can I change about how I am flying in order to start having some success against these guys?

Pretty much what FuriousMeow said . Resign from pulling high G maneuvers to get shooting solution, instead learn what the opposition does and counter it. Everytime you have energy advantage over your opponent it is your initiative to make the kill. The enemy will not be able to spoil the shot if you place it well.

 

Flying Luftwaffe predominantly means learning high deflections shots because that is the nature of countering high G enemy maneuvers.

 

You can also try forcing your opponent to bleed energy which will make him slower and easier to hit but that comes much more when you fly in team.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I tried putting my stabiliser to -50 in fights last night. I was able to come around much more effectively, but damn if it wasn't difficult to control!

 

Only had two engagements.

 

Luckily the nose climb is a persistent reminder to set stabiliser back when I don't need it.

[DB605]

Do not "pre set" stab to any certain reading. Instead learn to use it constantly in dogfight, anywhere between -5 to +2 depending on situation. That way you can pull quite hard turns even +500km/h speeds.

 

Just like pilots did in real life.

Edited October 21, 2017 by DB605