Pe-2 Gunners are OP

[NETSCAPE]

YOU JUST GOT PRANKED BRO. But now that I have your attention I would like you all to try flying the He 111 H-16 in multiplayer. 

 

Yesterday after dropping my bombs in the H-16 my AI gunners scored 2 air kills and 2 assists during 1 sortie (I always set gunners to engage at short range btw). I managed to fly into Germany territory before my engines both failed and all crew members bailed out and survived.    

 

So perhaps this will even the playing field a bit for everyone who always complains about the Pe-2 AI gunner's accuracy. 

 

(inb4 discussion about how to attack a Pe-2): I had to do some real practice in the testing of one of my ZG 26 missions where a Bf 110 Schwarm intercepts a sizable Pe-2 formation at 3500-4000m altitude... when flying the Bf 110 I found attacking the Pe-2 from their high 7-8 o'clock, disengaging and repeating - works best. Barely gaining on them in level flight and approaching from their six is no good!

 

Anyways, I was very impressed with the H-16 gunners. Obviously the crew didn't receive any new training, they are just better equipped now! 

[Haza]

YOU JUST GOT PRANKED BRO. But now that I have your attention I would like you all to try flying the He 111 H-16 in multiplayer. 

 

Yesterday after dropping my bombs in the H-16 my AI gunners scored 2 air kills and 2 assists during 1 sortie (I always set gunners to engage at short range btw). I managed to fly into Germany territory before my engines both failed and all crew members bailed out and survived.    

 

So perhaps this will even the playing field a bit for everyone who always complains about the Pe-2 AI gunner's accuracy. 

 

(inb4 discussion about how to attack a Pe-2): I had to do some real practice in the testing of one of my ZG 26 missions where a Bf 110 Schwarm intercepts a sizable Pe-2 formation at 3500-4000m altitude... when flying the Bf 110 I found attacking the Pe-2 from their high 7-8 o'clock, disengaging and repeating - works best. Barely gaining on them in level flight and approaching from their six is no good!

 

Anyways, I was very impressed with the H-16 gunners. Obviously the crew didn't receive any new training, they are just better equipped now! 

 

So are you saying that the H-16 gunners are OP?  

[Willy__]

 

 

But now that I have your attention I would like you all to try flying the He 111 H-16 in multiplayer. 

 

 

Nope.

 

Next.

 

 

 

 

[Inkophile]

All up to server settings (and of course skill/stupidity of the attacking pilots), so on what server was this?

[NETSCAPE]

So are you saying that the H-16 gunners are OP?  

 

negative. They are now competent and not armed with BB guns.

Edited October 9, 2017 by NETSCAPE

[Dutchvdm]

negative. They are now competent and not armed with BB guns.

 

Do you know who made the kills? I think the new ventral gunner with the Mg-81Z has an incredible fire arc and is very dangerous. Even for attacks from dead six. The dorsal gunner with it's new Mg-131 not so much. It's still hampered by the large and thick tail. 

 

Grt M

[NETSCAPE]

Do you know who made the kills? I think the new ventral gunner with the Mg-81Z has an incredible fire arc and is very dangerous. Even for attacks from dead six. The dorsal gunner with it's new Mg-131 not so much. It's still hampered by the large and thick tail. 

 

Grt M

 

I don't know. I was far too busy weaving, diving, trimming and managing beat up engines to really care to look back or switch positions! I should start recording more. I never really pay attention to the performance impact when doing so and my system might not like it too much. 

 

I have played around with the Mg-131 position in single player. That can eat up an enemy fighter rather quickly. 

[Retnek]

With some experience on any twin in the game: the He-111-H16-gunners are (nearly) as dangerous as the Pe-2-series-87-gunners are. It's the effect of the 13 mm gun in first place. A fighter slowly placing himself for one long salvo (like most players do) might bring down the bomber. Against a 13 mm MG he usually has to pay the same price himself. Fighters using high-speed approaches in different angles need several passes, but have a good chance to bring down the bomber and evade more or less intact.

  The other 7,9 mm MG are by far less effective, in a 1:1 encounter nearly useless. The only way to stand against fighters is a large, tight formation. Still not a real problem for them to pick a bomber out of the gaggle, but a pilot / player trying to stay alive for a long career will think twice, too.

  For some degree of realism at this point we need mature fighter pilots feeling the need to stay alive. And / or a server with a career-mode offering seriously rising advantages for survivors. Could be done with offering leader positions for the experienced, else you have to follow and protect the AI-leader . Or you have to fly patrols blocking some remote sectors for 30 min, ferry planes or generals, deliver supply goods. Those juicy alarm-starts against incoming bombers are reserved for pilots with 30 missions plus ...

[216th_Jordan]

I tried attacking a H16 from 2oc above with 600 kph, curving in from front to rear. Even before I get to my firing splitsecond snapshot opportunity I have a bullet in my engine.. You gotta be veery careful with that bird

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

From my experience I seldom were victorious without any damage against Pe2 and new H111. Mostly because I would try to shot them down as fast as possible

[[TWB]80hd]

I tried attacking a H16 from 2oc above with 600 kph, curving in from front to rear. Even before I get to my firing splitsecond snapshot opportunity I have a bullet in my engine.. You gotta be veery careful with that bird

 

This is a slice out of a track from runs I made on a 111 on TAW... hard to see the return fire, but I actually made it out without a hit recorded on me.  I scooted into a cloud to evade the 109 at the end, 111 didn't make it home.

 

 

 

 

 

I have as much fun coming at bombers as I do tangling with fighters, I think the vast majority of the time that I get stupid is when there's too much competition to bring down an "easy" target.

[216th_Jordan]

This is a slice out of a track from runs I made on a 111 on TAW... hard to see the return fire, but I actually made it out without a hit recorded on me. I scooted into a cloud to evade the 109 at the end, 111 didn't make it home.

 

 

 

 

 

I have as much fun coming at bombers as I do tangling with fighters, I think the vast majority of the time that I get stupid is when there's too much competition to bring down an "easy" target.

Nice flying though, great to see! I just wonder, was this a H16? Reason why I'm asking is because I always get blasted out of the sky with the 13mms If I'm not very careful.

I thing gunners on Ace level are a tad too efficient. On the other hand I'd rather have better defended bombers than sitting ducks that nobody wants to fly.

 

Here's my spit, I however remembered it incorrectly, he hit my after I passed him.

Edited October 9, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[InProgress]

I had this adventure in single player few days ago.. flying night bomber interception as bf110 with "bulletproof" front glass and was one shot by gunner in face and died.. I don't know what this bulletproof glass is and what kind of bullets it will stop, but pe2 gunner at night shooting through it at your face is a bit weird :|

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Bulletproof glass isn't really all it's chalked up to be.

 

For example, the toughest one in active aircraft right now is the front windshield of the Mi-24/35. From a 90 degree angle, it can structurally withstand a single 12.7mm shot, which causes it to crack. Further stress after that will cause it to collapse or be penetrated. Supposedly a 20mm shot from a long range and at a shallow angle can also be stopped or deflected but it's a matter of luck. Rifle calibres are fine, however, and that's what it is there for. Older, thinner models are there to deflect the odd angled shot but they can't to much against a full frontal 12.7mm you're flying right into.

 

Night vision for AI is not modelled to very accurate standards yet so the gunners are firing as if they have full visual.

[InProgress]

Night vision for AI is not modelled to very accurate standards yet so the gunners are firing as if they have full visual.

 

Well that's lame    hope it's on list of "must fix soon" night flying isn't easy, if AI can see you like a christmas tree then it's waaaay unfair.

Edited October 10, 2017 by InProgress

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Whole AI accuracy could change significantly when one of DD120 postulates will be accomplished:

" 19. Develop more sophisticated high-G effects system so it will affect plane crew depending on their weariness, oxygen amount, wounds, etc.;"

[Haza]

I avoid now playing the H-16 on WOL as my AI players DONOT seem to hit anything (After tonight on WOL, I will no longer be engaging a Pe2 either).

Recently in an H-16 at about 4-5K, I had Alex (the usual Yak driver Alex) slowly climb up to me, get on my 6 and eventually PK me and not one of my AI gunners even hit him.

However, the H-16 might be different on other servers.

[Inkophile]

(After tonight on WOL, I will no longer be engaging a Pe2 either)

 

Pe-2s are generally fine to attack as long as you make slashing attacks. Stay on them and you get shot to smithereens, but they generally can't hit for [Edited] if you fire at some distance and break off quickly. Sure, they are structurally tough (heck, all bombers are), but their engines get screwed up even by near misses.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Bearcat

[Willy__]

Yes, you can attack a pe safely if you employ the right tactics. But the ai still have some behavior beyond human which annoys everybody, I think the most notable thing is when you are diving on a pe from his very high six, in a very high speed pass: just like the drawing:

 

 

The top gunner wont hit you, but as soon as you enter the bottom gunner field of view, it will open up the gun port, shoot the exact amount of bullets at the exact time as you pass in very, very high speed pass, hitting you in that less than a second time window. Sometimes it really doesnt matter setup attacks because you are going to get hit by those wonder gunners when you enter its arc of fire. This also happens when you are flying russian and do the same thing against 111's and 88's but to a lesser degree, maybe their arc of fire is worse, and of course, the german bombers have 7.7s which dont do much like the 50s on the pe2. But still, its just a bs behavior which I think would be better if they fix it.

Edited October 10, 2017 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[von-Luck]

High speed high angle slashing dives are deff the best but as Staiger pointed out sometimes

crazy gunners prevail. That said high speed slashing usually takes many passes and requires a significant E advantage. Peshkas are extremely dangerous and if you get even a little greedy or unlucky you'll either get shot down or need to nurse your wounded bird back to base.

 

As for He 111's I can't say I have much experience flying them. Slashing attacks are easier due to the 111 being much slower. When I fly my Mig I never feel like the gunners represent a credible threat - but I don't park my plane behind bombers.

 

von Luck

Edited October 10, 2017 by von-Luck