Help escaping Soviet roll traps

[GridiroN]

I've noticed some of the better Soviet pilots rely on this rolling trap technique, and I can't figure out how to get out of it. Any help or comments would be appreciated. Obviously I've considered simply not following overly closely, but that seems an unreasonable proposition to manage in a dogfight and wouldn't actually help against the better pilots, so there's likely a better solution. 

 

 

Video demonstration:

 

EDIT: I'm also aware I didn't have to fight to begin with. The point of my asking for criticism is to get better at the fighting. Thanks!

Edited October 3, 2017 by GridiroN

[unreasonable]

Possible ideas:

 

1) Do not attack enemies that have seen you.  

2) If he starts to scissors, pull away from his line of flight and up, (or dive away) so that he cannot immediately reverse for a shot.

3) Do not miss with your first pass. 

4) Or - approach much more slowly, with just enough speed advantage that you can adjust and stay behind him if he scissors.

 

I think it comes down to making an early choice and sticking to it: either you are making a high speed pass, in which case you take a low probability shot and then extend with minimum manoeuvering - since that slows you down - zooming or diving depending on the context: or you are making an attempt to get on and stay on his tail, in which case you must slow down earlier. 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Don't miss on that opportunity at 1:01.

 

If you do miss (and for most that will happen regularly), you need to extend at that point. In the clip you posted, the Russian fighter was at a significant energy disadvantage setting up that overshoot and would not have been in an advantageous position unless you continued to fall and turn into the trap.

 

Often this tactic is performed with a lot more energy conservation from the Russian than the clip shown. In those cases its much harder to extend and gain enough separation but in your example posted you had the option to reset and re-engage from advantage.

 

A Wingman is a huge help for the situations where they retain a lot of E and you can't extend with a significant advantage - the wingman attacks 10 seconds later and mops up the Russian (or at a minimum forces the russian to disengage) trying to get guns on you after you extend.

Edited October 3, 2017 by =TBAS=Tripwire

[Inkophile]

In addition to what's already been said I have the following to add:

 

1. The first shot was way too early. Of course I don't know how good of a shot you are, but firing at that range against a manoeuvring target is bound to miss in my world. Priority should have been given to setting up a more advantageous firing position rather than performing the shot (i.e. starting to follow his turn the second he initiated the manoeuvre rather than making sure the shot is lined up).
    
2. You burned 35 seconds of emergency power just to catch up with him. The emergency power is your one thing to beat him in power loading at that low altitude since you were fighting right about his optimal altitude for supercharger stage 2.
    
3. You can perform much tighter turns with the help of gravity, and since the 109 is an excellent climber you should use high yo-yos to more rapidly "cut the corner" at the apex of the climb. In this situation it was needed extra much because the opponent had already reduced his speed to be close to his corner speed, while you still were going way too fast to have anywhere near his rate of turn and turn radius while turning in the horizontal.
    
4. I'd actually say that this situation was no good to force a fight to start with. He spotted you, he started manoeuvring too hard for you too follow without dumping a lot of energy and you didn't have enough of a speed overtake to be certain that you'd be able to safely perform a high yo-yo or Immelman turn. Although you had a good firing opportunity at around the 1:04 mark that's also where you lost the manoeuvre fight. You had a good opportunity to continue your left-hand turn, point your nose down into a shallow dive and extend out of his reach, but instead you went into the right-hand turn following him at a great angle-off-tail while also losing speed (i.e. energy advantage) as you had to force your nose up, all in a situation where he was still much closer to his corner speed than you were.

 

I'm by no means a master pilot myself. I might actually have made the same mistakes you did in the heat of battle (well, aside from #1. I never fire at that range), but that's why we analyse the action afterwards to see what went wrong :D

Edited October 3, 2017 by Inkoslav

[56RAF_Roblex]

Another possibility when you attack a slower target that rolls left is to make a rolling climbing turn to the right and continue over the top to come back with altitude but having gone through 190-260 degrees ie now behind him if he completed his turn.  Done right it allows you to also keep him in sight throughout the maneuver.  If half way through (and inverted probably) you see him reverse his turn for a scissors then you just turn it into a tightening barrel roll and you are still above and behind him without losing much E.

[Requiem]

What sealed your fate was at the 1 minute mark when you performed that slow-ish reversal (left turn to right turn). It wasted valuable time and energy for you to change directions at that point and it made the solution so much easier for the Yak. It almost seemed like you were watching him instead of flying your airplane and I think that was a problem, so I apologise ahead of time if I'm wrong on that point. The slow reversal by you provided him a good shot window, but if he misses you at least you pass each other at high aspect so that's the perfect time to leave too. For him to miss that shot you should continue either rolling (~ 90° off his plane of motion) with a pull down or use negative G before he shoots followed with an extension. I know this might sound generic but I think you were more or less reacting to what the bandit was doing instead of doing what you wanted against him in this case.

 

As it was flown though, imo the best option would be to not even take that shot and reverse as he passes in front of you at 1 minute (put yourself in a vulnerable spot being nose high and losing airspeed as he begins his quick reversal) but instead begin a diving left turn away to cross underneath at highest aspect possible and behind him for him to lose sight. You can then regain sight as he turns behind you while you extend to try again later. Sometimes the best option is simply recognising a bad position early enough to avoid getting into trouble, but I favour being cautious at times.

Edited October 3, 2017 by SYN_Requiem

[GridiroN]

Another possibility when you attack a slower target that rolls left is to make a rolling climbing turn to the right and continue over the top to come back with altitude but having gone through 190-260 degrees ie now behind him if he completed his turn.  Done right it allows you to also keep him in sight throughout the maneuver.  If half way through (and inverted probably) you see him reverse his turn for a scissors then you just turn it into a tightening barrel roll and you are still above and behind him without losing much E.

 

So you're saying, instead of turn to follow him, stay with my original course and come out of the maneuver with altitude? Interested. This could be simple and effective, Ill try to think of this next time!

 

What sealed your fate was at the 1 minute mark when you performed that slow-ish reversal (left turn to right turn). It wasted valuable time and energy for you to change directions at that point and it made the solution so much easier for the Yak. It almost seemed like you were watching him instead of flying your airplane and I think that was a problem, so I apologise ahead of time if I'm wrong on that point. The slow reversal by you provided him a good shot window, but if he misses you at least you pass each other at high aspect so that's the perfect time to leave too. For him to miss that shot you should continue either rolling (~ 90° off his plane of motion) with a pull down or use negative G before he shoots followed with an extension. I know this might sound generic but I think you were more or less reacting to what the bandit was doing instead of doing what you wanted against him in this case.

 

As it was flown though, imo the best option would be to not even take that shot and reverse as he passes in front of you at 1 minute (put yourself in a vulnerable spot being nose high and losing airspeed as he begins his quick reversal) but instead begin a diving left turn away to cross underneath at highest aspect possible and behind him for him to lose sight. You can then regain sight as he turns behind you while you extend to try again later. Sometimes the best option is simply recognising a bad position early enough to avoid getting into trouble, but I favour being cautious at times.

 

Ah, that was difficult to follow but I think I know what you're saying. Are you simply saying that instead of following him nose high, I should have nosed down, extended and came back with a reset position?

[56RAF_Roblex]

So you're saying, instead of turn to follow him, stay with my original course and come out of the maneuver with altitude? Interested. This could be simple and effective, Ill try to think of this next time!

 

 

Not exactly.  It is more like when your target sees you and starts a 180 left turn towards you and it is obvious you are going to fast to follow,  make a climbing rolling turn to the right and allow yourself to become inverted at the top at which point you can re-aquire the target and pull down again on his tail. You will in effect have done a 200 - 270 degree turn in the opposite direction to his turn but because you added the vertical component you did not pull heavy Gs and lose energy.  I find these diagrams confusing but if you look at position two for the defender, at the same point you will just be coming inverted above and behind him and if you can imagine looking down on his head from there (he will be a bit forward as well) you can see that it is easy to then continue the roll to come out right way up on his tail.

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[unreasonable]

Not exactly.  It is more like when your target sees you and starts a 180 left turn towards you and it is obvious you are going to fast to follow,  make a climbing rolling turn to the right and allow yourself to become inverted at the top at which point you can re-aquire the target and pull down again on his tail. You will in effect have done a 200 - 270 degree turn in the opposite direction to his turn but because you added the vertical component you did not pull heavy Gs and lose energy.  I find these diagrams confusing but if you look at position two for the defender, at the same point you will just be coming inverted above and behind him and if you can imagine looking down on his head from there (he will be a bit forward as well) you can see that it is easy to then continue the roll to come out right way up on his tail.

 

 

 

Also known as lag displacement roll IIRC. Requiem's training videos from RoF had a good illustration of this:

 

[LLv34_Temuri]

The situation reminded me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TnRr1gZ93s

[56RAF_Roblex]

Also known as lag displacement roll IIRC. Requiem's training videos from RoF had a good illustration of this:

 

 

Yes. I meant to edit my post to say some call it a displacement roll instead of a lag roll.   I avoid saying 'Barrel Roll attack' when describing it to people though as I worry that people will think 'Oh yes. In the Barrel Roll you come out still facing the original direction'.  A barrel roll is also a maneuver used to get someone off your six and onto your twelve, again without changing direction.  It starts like a barrel roll but then changes half way through so calling it a barrel roll is like calling an immelman a loop :-)  Good explanation in the video though. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex