Let's talk about the G6

[CUJO_1970]

I've flown the Pe-2 a few hundred times and that plane is in no way the kind of flying tank you describe it above.

 

With all due respect, it has absolutely nothing to do with the way I "describe it"...of course don't take my word for it, pay attention to the online stats as posted above and it shows what the Pe-2 is actually capable of absorbing from the MG/151.

 

Pe-2 sortie log from that mission:

 

http://72ag-ded.ru:8080/en/sortie/log/498644/?tour=26

 

The above is fairly typical and can be shown by the bullets hit the target stats that show statistically what is actually happening in the sim. In this sortie I had 88 hits (I also killed a Yak) and the other FW pilot (SYN_GD) had 116 hits...all on the same Pe-2.

 

Watching the tracks also show that there is actually little to no "area damage" from splinters by exploding mine shells with regard to the pilot and gunners on the Pe-2:

 

 

Gunner didn't even have a scratch after this...

Edited October 23, 2017 by CUJO1970

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Yep the Pe-2 has a lot of resistance structurally speaking, it is much more vulnerable to damage caused by mgs though, like engine/fuel fires and crew kills. For what I have tried the best plane to kill Pe-2s is the P-40 with the six .50 cals, with one good pass you can usually cause a fire or kill the pilot.  I have tried with the other heavy mgs like the Breda and UB but they don't give such good results, looks like their explosive ammo doesn't do much, looking at this I think the MG 131s in the G-6 won't be of much use vs the Pe-2 in that regard

Edited October 23, 2017 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Adding to what Retnek said, another quick about the Pe-2 is that it gives the illusion of being tough.

 

Even if it remains airborne and looks intact besides the smoke from the outside, from the cockpit the reality is much different! Just a few hits are enough to make it almost unusable, with engines coughing and failing to operate properly, trim not working, one of rudder/aileron/elevator rendered useless, bordering on the impossible to handle and with both gunners wounded or dead. Just because a big metal aircraft doesn't disintegrate doesn't mean it's fine, its systems are made of glass.

 

Online logs don't paint anything close to a realistic picture, especially cherry-picked ones.

[MrNoice]

Adding to what Retnek said, another quick about the Pe-2 is that it gives the illusion of being tough.

 

Even if it remains airborne and looks intact besides the smoke from the outside, from the cockpit the reality is much different! Just a few hits are enough to make it almost unusable, with engines coughing and failing to operate properly, trim not working, one of rudder/aileron/elevator rendered useless, bordering on the impossible to handle and with both gunners wounded or dead. Just because a big metal aircraft doesn't disintegrate doesn't mean it's fine, its systems are made of glass.

 

Online logs don't paint anything close to a realistic picture, especially cherry-picked ones.

 

I have the same experience like the others... its an extremly flying tank and still perfect flying and still bombed the targets...

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I can say the same about the Ju-88: haven't ever bagged one online, I can count in one hand those I've shot down offline, and even those I heavily damaged still made it to target and dropped bombs before turning home.

 

But instead of moaning that an all-metal large aircraft is not disintegrating like a champagne glass from 20mm hits just because I want it so, I understand that large well-built aircraft with reinforced structures will rarely lose a wing or explode mid-air after being hit.

Edited October 23, 2017 by 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I don't know for sure but wounded AI gunner has the same capability as healthy one.

BTW those things should be sorted when this of DD120 postulate would be implemented:

"19. Develop more sophisticated high-G effects system so it will affect plane crew depending on their weariness, oxygen amount, wounds, etc."

[A_radek]

If talking about perceived toughness of aircraft/ineffective cannons rather than actual testing. I generally find shooting at anything from 6 o'clock while parked behind makes the target seem very tough.

I've shot 7/8 He rounds in to the rear of a 190 (as this was from an la-5 with mixed belt it probably received some ap hits also) without it seemingly suffer any damage. I absolutely peppered a ju-88 with the full ammo load from a yak and it shrugged that off with a tauntingly puny smoketrail. One aircraft that constantly surprises me with it's toughness is the ju-87 as it just keeps on flying even when trailing endless amounts of smoke. However frail and outdated the 87 might look it was a rather large aircraft. 

Shooting from 6 o clock and especially from longer range you are almost always spreading out the hits over many damage modules. In this case all aircraft will handle more than those 4x 20mm hits unless your lucky enough to hit a vital spot. While a high deflection burst at close range will sever a wing, fuselage or critically damage a module on all the obove mentioned examples. 

I fly both sides when team balance allows and don't notice any general difference in toughness/ammo effectiveness between red/blue. When failing It's my gunnery that should have been from closer range/more concentrated. The exception to this is the 109 which I've always felt is slightly more fragile than other fighters. But for a such a small and lightweight airframe I don't find that surprising.

Hartmann to all his virtual juniors: "Get close .. when he fills the entire windscreen ... then you can't possibly miss."

Edited October 23, 2017 by a_radek

[xvii-Dietrich]

I can say the same about the Ju-88: haven't ever bagged one online, I can count in one hand those I've shot down offline, and even those I heavily damaged still made it to target and dropped bombs before turning home.

 

It's just perspective.

 

I fly the Ju 88 regularly. To me, it _feels_ like every Soviet fighter is fitted with laser-ranging, auto-converging, rapid-fire, quad-152mm-cal howitzers. And when it spews smoke and flames and soot and ash like a disintegrating volcano.   That's assuming I can take-off without trashing the aircraft in a ground-loop.  :-\

 

Obviously it is not like that... but it always seems that way.

[Livai]

 

 

pay attention to the online stats as posted above and it shows what the Pe-2 is actually capable of absorbing from the MG/151.

 

Do you talking about this Pe-2???

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6nXJofKVgs

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Exactly Dietrich! It's a good old case of the grass always being greener on the other side of the Volga, with an element of Murphy's law added

[LLv24_Zami]

I don't know for sure but wounded AI gunner has the same capability as healthy one.

BTW those things should be sorted when this of DD120 postulate would be implemented:

"19. Develop more sophisticated high-G effects system so it will affect plane crew depending on their weariness, oxygen amount, wounds, etc."

Hope these get implemented eventually. Big problem imo is that even heavy evasive maneuvering of the bomber doesn`t seem to affect it´s gunners accuracy. I think it should be more or less impossible to shoot accurately with heavy mg`s when pilot is yanking the plane like crazy. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Zami

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Hope these get implemented eventually. Big problem imo is that even heavy evasive maneuvering of the bomber doesn`t seem to affect It´s gunners accuracy. I think it should be even more or less impossible to shoot accurately with heavy mg`s when pilot is yanking the plane like crazy.

For sure!

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Hope these get implemented eventually. Big problem imo is that even heavy evasive maneuvering of the bomber doesn`t seem to affect it´s gunners accuracy. I think it should be more or less impossible to shoot accurately with heavy mg`s when pilot is yanking the plane like crazy. 

Whaaaat? My gunners don't hit anything in Level Flight, and even flying the shallowest of turns he basically just stands there, and fires holes into the air, nowhere even remotely close to the enemy. And often he just goes on strike as soon as the Aircraft isn't perfectly level anymore. 

 

Maybe he has some tea and crumbs or something, but defense is the last thing on my Gunners mind when we stop flying straight. 

[LLv24_Zami]

Whaaaat? My gunners don't hit anything in Level Flight, and even flying the shallowest of turns he basically just stands there, and fires holes into the air, nowhere even remotely close to the enemy. And often he just goes on strike as soon as the Aircraft isn't perfectly level anymore. 

 

Maybe he has some tea and crumbs or something, but defense is the last thing on my Gunners mind when we stop flying straight. 

Looks like you have to replace your gunners...

 

Or maybe their skill level has something to do with it. I`ve seen pretty impossible shots from higher level gunners, not very rare even.

[Ropalcz]

Some Slovakian skins for G-6  :

 

 

Rotník (Feldwebel) Karol Geletko (2 confirmed victories + 2 unconfirmed) 

 

 

 

Nadporučík (Oberleutnant) Jozef Puškár (5 confirmed victories + 1 unconfirmed) 

 

 

 

 

 

Rotník (Feldwebel) Rudolf Božík (9 confirmed victories + 9 unconfirmed)

 

 

Rotník (Feldwebel) Gustáv Lang (3 confirmed victories)

 

[Irgendjemand]

Do you talking about this Pe-2???

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6nXJofKVgs

 

nothing but frikkin riddiculous.

[Alexmarine]

nothing but frikkin riddiculous.

Indeed. Look at those messer shoulder firing and hitting themselves while trying to claim a kill...

[von-Luck]

So how about that G6? You know - the topic of this thread.

 

I get belly aching about stuff but let's at least try to keep this in topic. I eagerly await more news about this bird fingers still crossed the MK108 makes it in. Somebody made a great point earlier in the thread mentioning how many of these collector planes have less than historic loadouts. While I do like seeing period correct aircraft and loadouts I hope this can instead be realized by map designers instead of omitting them outright.

 

von Luck

[ShamrockOneFive]

With all due respect, it has absolutely nothing to do with the way I "describe it"...of course don't take my word for it, pay attention to the online stats as posted above and it shows what the Pe-2 is actually capable of absorbing from the MG/151.

 

Pe-2 sortie log from that mission:

 

http://72ag-ded.ru:8080/en/sortie/log/498644/?tour=26

 

The above is fairly typical and can be shown by the bullets hit the target stats that show statistically what is actually happening in the sim. In this sortie I had 88 hits (I also killed a Yak) and the other FW pilot (SYN_GD) had 116 hits...all on the same Pe-2.

 

Watching the tracks also show that there is actually little to no "area damage" from splinters by exploding mine shells with regard to the pilot and gunners on the Pe-2:

 

IL2 BOS 18.jpg

IL2 BOS 19.jpg

 

Gunner didn't even have a scratch after this...

 

Solid data is far better than people running around feeling this and that. Thanks for sharing. That is indeed ridiculous.

 

It makes me wonder if there are still some issues with how damage is calculated in a laggy/online environment. Even if you have an awesome pick and packetloss is low... there's still maybe something going on. In my tests Pe-2s never made it up into the high 80s or 100s of hits from 20mm.

So how about that G6? You know - the topic of this thread.

 

I get belly aching about stuff but let's at least try to keep this in topic. I eagerly await more news about this bird fingers still crossed the MK108 makes it in. Somebody made a great point earlier in the thread mentioning how many of these collector planes have less than historic loadouts. While I do like seeing period correct aircraft and loadouts I hope this can instead be realized by map designers instead of omitting them outright.

 

von Luck

 

Well said Von Luck. I think there's some great opportunities to add something unique with the MK108 in this aircraft and it can of course be removed by server admins. I'm ok either way but something extra unique (above and beyond the MG131 guns) would be interesting.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Of course, but I wasn't talking about nationalism in and of itself, but the culturally rooted unwillingness to seek the fault in one self.

 

It is the general fault of all nationalist movements and extremely unhealthy to any nation.

The moderator specifically stated "no politics whatsoever" in here. So I suggest you leave your leftist German guilt complex in your closet. You make me want to puke with that talk. There is enough of this in the west of this country already, you can go outside there and talk to local western Germans. If you can find any, as soon you'll die out. Us who remain believe this to be a tragedy, but you can't heal the German people's guilt complex I am afraid. Just keep this out of this forum please, or you will trigger more response to this topic. This thread is about the G6. Спасибо!

So how about that G6? You know - the topic of this thread.

 

I get belly aching about stuff but let's at least try to keep this in topic. I eagerly await more news about this bird fingers still crossed the MK108 makes it in. Somebody made a great point earlier in the thread mentioning how many of these collector planes have less than historic loadouts. While I do like seeing period correct aircraft and loadouts I hope this can instead be realized by map designers instead of omitting them outright.

 

von Luck

Very true. Also, the MK108 with MG131s will be the G6's big selling point! Very interesting planes ahead!

[Finkeren]

So how about that G6? You know - the topic of this thread.

 

I get belly aching about stuff but let's at least try to keep this in topic. I eagerly await more news about this bird fingers still crossed the MK108 makes it in. Somebody made a great point earlier in the thread mentioning how many of these collector planes have less than historic loadouts. While I do like seeing period correct aircraft and loadouts I hope this can instead be realized by map designers instead of omitting them outright.

 

von Luck

 

I hope they'll put the MK 108 in there as well. Not because I'm going to use it, my aim is so horrible, that I prefer firing time over hitting power (and I seldom fly 109s other than the E7 anyway), but it'll make things interesting. Should it turn out, that it completely breaks MP (which I very much doubt) there's always the option to remove it from the server settings.

[EAF19_Marsh]

 

MK-108 being inaccurate...that is a complete fiction. It tested with a tighter spread than even MG151.

 

It has about 60% of the MG 151 muzzle velocity (c. 550m/a vs 850m/s), so what it makes up for in destructive power it loses in ease of aiming, particularly again a maneuvering, fighter-sized target.

 

Does not make it inaccurate per se, just possibly more difficult to use effectively

[Irgendjemand]

Indeed. Look at those messer shoulder firing and hitting themselves while trying to claim a kill...

 

Yeah my saying. The PE that soaks up bullets like a sponge is totally cool!

[A_radek]

I hope they'll put the MK 108 in there as well. Not because I'm going to use it, my aim is so horrible, that I prefer firing time over hitting power (and I seldom fly 109s other than the E7 anyway), but it'll make things interesting. Should it turn out, that it completely breaks MP (which I very much doubt) there's always the option to remove it from the server settings.

Only speculating but can't imagine it would break MP in any significant way. Those few maps where it's historically allowed, it will be fearsome if a disciplined pilot is behind the stick. Many are not disciplined alternatively are forced down low to push back groundpounders. Both kinds will be greeted by FN's they can't escape from. 

 

Out of topic: I still believe the p-39, (depending on how the lightened version performs) could potentially be the bigger gamechanger for MP as it should be available on more maps. If not it will definitely be an annoyance.

[ZachariasX]

 

 

Does not make it inaccurate per se, just possibly more difficult to use effectively

 

It is not inaccurate. It just makes these laser shots from 800 m distance more of a challenge due to the massive increase in lead aim required. Also the trajectories of the 13 mm and the 30 mm will be markedly different beyond 500 m or so distance.

 

So you have to get close enough "until the target fills your entire windscreen", then it is very precise.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

If they throw the MK-108 in, I propose a new tournament: M4 vs MK-108. No other weapons allowed, best of three knockout format. It shall be called The Melon Gunnery Cup

[707shap_Srbin]

 

 

So you have to get close enough "until the target fills your entire windscreen", then it is very precise.

Soviet pilots called it "rivets distance" - the distance, on wich one can see a rivets on enemy aircraft. 

[EAF19_Marsh]

 

It is not inaccurate. It just makes these laser shots from 800 m distance more of a challenge due to the massive increase in lead aim required.

 

 

That is, I believe, exactly what I said

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

You know that genetically all humans are virtually the same, 99% of 3 billion DNA base pairings?

 

I think your puke is against forum rules too.

So is a Dolphin, so what? Why are you engaging in race-baiting this? Do me a favour and keep that SJW-stuff out of my face. Just stick to the damn topic, as mods said: Bf 109 G6.

 

 

Regarding the Bf109 G6, the biggest thing for me is the MK108. I loved the gun in other games (War Thunder), and I am eagerly awaiting to use it in a Simulator (IL-2 BoX). Nothing spells "Death" to heavily armored/sturdy targets quite like a "Maschinenkanone 108". 

Edited October 24, 2017 by 2./JG51_Fenris_Wolf

[6./ZG26_Custard]

 

 

nothing but frikkin riddiculous.

 

Flying both VVS and LW for many hours online, I have experienced both tank like indestructibility and fragile "glass wing" vulnerability. When flying the Pe-2 I have been shot down almost immediately in one sortie and in another have soaked up plenty of damage. In one such sortie (on TAW) a group of 5 Pe-2's were brought down by just 2 109's.

 

 

This isn’t just in the Pe-2

 

 

 

I think in the main, if you hit the aircraft in the right place you can bring it down fairly easily. It may also be a problem with latency server side, particularly when you have “that” message pop up saying that the server is overloaded and may cause erratic behaviour.

 

 

I do think the MG151 has been improved. My concern is if the G6 does come with the 108 and it isn’t a wonder weapon people will complain and if it is a wonder weapon…you guessed it, people will complain.   

 

[von-Luck]

My concern is if the G6 does come with the 108 and it isn’t a wonder weapon people will complain and if it is a wonder weapon…you guessed it, people will complain.

This. There will be strong feelings on both sides of the fence. I wait with baited breath but I can easily see this being a contentious item.

 

Hey Windy - saw you and Scorp the other day glad to see you two flying!

 

 

von Luck

Edited October 24, 2017 by von-Luck

[Holtzauge]

Agreed: It will be very interesting to see how they solve this since the whole raison d'etre with the Mk108 was to lob a high explosive charge at low velocity and rely on gas pressure and shock action. Concerning the efficiency I think this should be easy to gauge though in that it should usually take no more than 1 hit and then it's........

[SYN_Haashashin]

ohh boy...this again???

 

Seriously, I do not even know why I try to told you guys again...NO politics!! This is a different topic than the last time but same people involved?? Do you think Im not serious when I say I will apply the rules?..

 

Hope some of you guys reconsider what they are posting and how...because derailing the topics with things that are talked in another topics and at the right section is not welcome, will start to delete all of those.

 

I locked this one and maybe will reopen it...maybe.

 

Haash..

 

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