Let's talk about the G6

[MrNoice]

Quite surprised reading such a troll post from you. It wasn`t a one shot weapon for most aircraft in the sim. To be sure you had to put at least two or three clean hits in for an enemy crate to go down. That is why online pilots didn`t spit those out one by one but in bursts of three - five shells at a time at point blank range. It did slice off wings with a good degrees deflect shot hit but targeting the fuselage was often without result. Most bombers such as Pe2 and mudmovers such as IL2 withstood at least a few hits before showing any sign of damage. The real life MK108 was not known for crippling an aircraft`s ability to fly, it was known to tear it apart.

I couldn`t count how many times I went in, got a burst and after a huge puff of smoke plane was still flying. With those types of planes hit I figured it was probably bad netcode. Though when a fighter like LaGG, Yak, La that got hit with it still flew and engaged me...something must have gone wrong there.

 

The only case in which I`d agree with you would have been a direct hit on the engine resulting in a big explosion 9,5 out of 10 times.

ehm I played il2 1946 yesterday and the mk108 even oneshotet the heavy armored Il2 !

Not trolling at all. My online experience with the MK 108 was very different from what you describe. Even heavy bombers fell after 1-2 hits from that weapon. Going up against one head on was sheer suicide.

 

yeah same for me I oneshotet them like everytime ^^

For goodness sake, give it a rest already. You don't have to like the way the German 20 mm cannon may be modeled, but you don't need to spam every other topic with a comment about it.

why not dude ? maybe someday they will fix it then ^^

[Finkeren]

why not dude ? maybe someday they will fix it then ^^

That’s not how it works, and I think you know that.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

why not dude ? maybe someday they will fix it then ^^  

  

 

 

 

If you genuinely think there is an issue with any aspect of the sim just gather as much information as you can, do a series of test and submit this to the Dev's. Spamming threads won't fix anything.  

[MrNoice]

nice one

[ITAF_Rani]

Talking about damaging hope Devs will introduce new decals of damaging on the planes...expecially for 30 mm hits

[Voidhunger]

Talking about damaging hope Devs will introduce new decals of damaging on the planes...expecially for 30 mm hits

True, that would be nice. But i dont think they have time, resources or high priority to do that.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Though I'd like to see them as well, damage decals are not, in fact, a priority. I started a thread about it a while ago and Jason replied directly. Considering the scope of the teams ambitions, I can live with that.

[Holtzauge]

This is what a single IRL 30 mm Mk108 Mingeschoss did to a Spitfire. So modeling it as a one shot fighter kill “Wunderwaffe” seems like the right thing to do by the looks of it.......

 

Pretty amazing that even though the shell has the whole rear fuselage to vent gas pressure in, it still manages to completely blow apart the rear fuselage causing catastrophic failure.

 

Now what does that tell us about the 20 mm Mingeschoss? Don’t know if you can do it like that but it seems reasonable to scale down the explosive power by (2/3)**3 as in the shell volume goes down roughly by that factor. So assuming this method of comparison is valid, it means that a 20 mm should have about 1/3 of the explosive power of a 30 mm shell.

 

So a hit in the same place on a Spitfire would hardly cause the same catastrophic damage but if we instead consider a typical fighter wing which is a much more confined space with ribs and spars that to some extent hinder venting my guess is that a Mingeschoss hit there or on a control surface like a stabilizer should be pretty bad news but that we don’t really see that in-game right now and that that is the gripe that some of us have with the current 20 mm Mingeschoss DM.

 

So can we prove it? No, it’s not easy to pull that kind of data out of a hat but applying a bit of common sense and extrapolating the 30mm Mk108 damage in the picture below I would expect the 20 mm Mg151 Mingeschoss to be pretty potent and quite capable of blowing off wing panels and control surfaces in addition to the nice puffs of black smoke we see today.

 

So what I'm hoping for is that the modeling effort the developers put into the 30 mm Mingeschoss for the Mk108 will also benefit the 20 mm Mingeschoss for the Mg151!

[Ropalcz]

So a hit in the same place on a Spitfire would hardly cause the same catastrophic damage but if we instead consider a typical fighter wing which is a much more confined space with ribs and spars that to some extent hinder venting my guess is that a Mingeschoss hit there or on a control surface like a stabilizer should be pretty bad news but that we don’t really see that in-game right now and that that is the gripe that some of us have with the current 20 mm Mingeschoss DM.

 

So can we prove it? No, it’s not easy to pull that kind of data out of a hat but applying a bit of common sense and extrapolating the 30mm Mk108 damage in the picture below I would expect the 20 mm Mg151 Mingeschoss to be pretty potent and quite capable of blowing off wing panels and control surfaces in addition to the nice puffs of black smoke we see today.

 

So what I'm hoping for is that the modeling effort the developers put into the 30 mm Mingeschoss for the Mk108 will also benefit the 20 mm Mingeschoss for the Mg151!

 

Working 20mm Minengeschoss for MG 151 would be very nice to have. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Ropalcz

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

This is what a single IRL 30 mm Mk108 Mingeschoss did to a Spitfire. So modeling it as a one shot fighter kill “Wunderwaffe” seems like the right thing to do by the looks of it.......

 

Pretty amazing that even though the shell has the whole rear fuselage to vent gas pressure in, it still manages to completely blow apart the rear fuselage causing catastrophic failure.

 

Now what does that tell us about the 20 mm Mingeschoss? Don’t know if you can do it like that but it seems reasonable to scale down the explosive power by (2/3)**3 as in the shell volume goes down roughly by that factor. So assuming this method of comparison is valid, it means that a 20 mm should have about 1/3 of the explosive power of a 30 mm shell.

 

So a hit in the same place on a Spitfire would hardly cause the same catastrophic damage but if we instead consider a typical fighter wing which is a much more confined space with ribs and spars that to some extent hinder venting my guess is that a Mingeschoss hit there or on a control surface like a stabilizer should be pretty bad news but that we don’t really see that in-game right now and that that is the gripe that some of us have with the current 20 mm Mingeschoss DM.

 

So can we prove it? No, it’s not easy to pull that kind of data out of a hat but applying a bit of common sense and extrapolating the 30mm Mk108 damage in the picture below I would expect the 20 mm Mg151 Mingeschoss to be pretty potent and quite capable of blowing off wing panels and control surfaces in addition to the nice puffs of black smoke we see today.

 

So what I'm hoping for is that the modeling effort the developers put into the 30 mm Mingeschoss for the Mk108 will also benefit the 20 mm Mingeschoss for the Mg151!

It/they may one day but considering they just did a re-work on it recently I don't see it happening any time soon. All things considered, it seems to be fairly complex and difficult to get the technical/historical/feelings data correct.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Whilst I'd love to see Mingeschoss getting better modelling,

 

Quote from developer on the Russian forums (Questions for Developers) (Google translate) -

 

Prior to the release of the Kuban, no work is planned to improve FM and DM.

What will be "beyond the Kuban" - while talking a little prematurely, because before you build new plans you must first analyze the results.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I hope someday we would have better visual and hope for wing structural damage model, let's begin from something "simple" like plane losing their metal plate sheets covering engine...

[The_Ant]

[Holtzauge]

It/they may one day but considering they just did a re-work on it recently I don't see it happening any time soon. All things considered, it seems to be fairly complex and difficult to get the technical/historical/feelings data correct.

 

 

Whilst I'd love to see Mingeschoss getting better modelling,

 

Quote from developer on the Russian forums (Questions for Developers) (Google translate) -

 

Prior to the release of the Kuban, no work is planned to improve FM and DM.

What will be "beyond the Kuban" - while talking a little prematurely, because before you build new plans you must first analyze the results.

 

Well let's hope they find the time for it because the performance of the Mk108 is so tied to the explosive part and not the kinetic ( I think the picture Klaus Mann posted here showing the huge shell and minimal cartridge volumes is telling), a Mk108 IMHO would be pretty lame without this being fixed so I'm still hoping for the best.

 

There you go! That's gotta hurt.....

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I think since the 20mm has been tweaked by the devs it does seem more effective than before. I believe the HE filling for a Minegeschoss is around 17-19 grams?  Comparing that to the 30 mm with a 70 g HE filling no wonder it was so devastating, it probably will (and should be)  a one hit wonder weapon?

 

Meanwhile, here is someone tearing up a light aircraft with a 20 mm.

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[ZachariasX]

 

 

Meanwhile, here is someone tearing up a light aircraft with a 20 mm.

Must be AP. Shame for the Mooney. And the silly gasoline fire. HE would have been a different picture, but I bet those dorks couldn't afford them.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Can´t wait to order the G6.

 

If Hartmann could do it. I think we can do it too 

[Leaf]

From a technical report on the effectiveness of the Mk108 (or more specifically the grams of explosive in shells).

 

It's in German and I don't have the time to translate it at the moment, but if you want the document or a brief translation of something PM me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by JG19_Leaf

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Can´t wait to order the G6.

 

If Hartmann could do it. I think we can do it too

Some guys know how to dogfight, and performance is a big deal to them.

 

Then there are guys like me, whose only kills come from stalking and catching people unaware.

 

I for one am excited for the G6.

[Jizzo]

Pretty devastating damage there, Leaf!

Edited October 18, 2017 by [TWB]Jizzo

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

 

From a technical report on the effectiveness of the Mk108 (or more specifically the grams of explosive in shells).

 

It's in German and I don't have the time to translate it at the moment, but if you want the document or a brief translation of something PM me.

 

-snip-

 

All of these links don't work.

 

Could you use something like Imgur? More reliable hosting with image albums.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[Holtzauge]

 

From a technical report on the effectiveness of the Mk108 (or more specifically the grams of explosive in shells).

 

It's in German and I don't have the time to translate it at the moment, but if you want the document or a brief translation of something PM me.

 

 

Very interesting info! Thanks for posting. PM sent.

[Guest deleted@134347]

I watched that episode. They couldn't purchase the ammo anywhere so the resorted to manufacturing it themselves. Hence the lame anti-climatic fire bomb end.

 

Must be AP. Shame for the Mooney. And the silly gasoline fire. HE would have been a different picture, but I bet those dorks couldn't afford them.

[Irgendjemand]

 

 

a Mk108 IMHO would be pretty lame without this being fixed so I'm still hoping for the best.

 

 

fingers crossed!

[707shap_Srbin]

I'm with Finkeren, the MK108 was a wonder weapon in 1946. I used to take a G-6 With them for fun in those airquake servers (Skies of Fire or something). A single hit would absolutely end whatever was on the of it, that was an easy kill machine.

On AirForseWar I, at once, me and my fellow =KAG=Pustelga engaged a flight of 4 Fw190A-8 of Merseburg Gruppe. All of them got MK108 installed. We were in Yak-3. I made a Head-On attack, heavy damaged KaEV, but got a single 30mm hit straight in the nose. Effect - I was slightly injured (light pink screen). No damage to aircraft at all, exept damaged canopy. 

[Finkeren]

On AirForseWar I, at once, me and my fellow =KAG=Pustelga engaged a flight of 4 Fw190A-8 of Merseburg Gruppe. All of them got MK108 installed. We were in Yak-3. I made a Head-On attack, heavy damaged KaEV, but got a single 30mm hit straight in the nose. Effect - I was slightly injured (light pink screen). No damage to aircraft at all, exept damaged canopy.

I would put that down to the fact, that in IL2-1946 the propeller spinner of an aircraft was indestructible except by way of explosion and could sometimes shield you from a hit head-on.

 

The fact that the cockpit was destroyed and your pilot injured from a single hit on the nose should speak to the power of the MK 108 round.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Anecdotal accounts from the old sim mean absolutely nothing here.

 

I can give you several of my stories about being hit, or hitting someone online with the Mk. 108 and either being blown to bits or blowing someone to bits with one shot.

 

All of which says to me that the devs should do the right thing and NOT put the Mk.108 in the game now.  It does not fit the time frame, and it will be the biggest can of worms ever opened on this forum, as every "pilot" with mediocre aim will come here crying about how his German wonder weapon is porked and screaming about Russian bias.

Edited October 19, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

All of which says to me that the devs should do the right thing and NOT put the Mk.108 in the game now.  It does not fit the time frame, and it will be the biggest can of worms ever opened on this forum, as every "pilot" with mediocre aim will come here crying about how his German wonder weapon is porked and screaming about Russian bias.

 

I wouldn't agree that that's a good reason not to include it (may as well get rid of anything Luftwaffe related in general if we're doing the cause/effect thing) but this is otherwise a fair and accurate assessment of how it's going to go.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[Irgendjemand]

Anecdotal accounts from the old sim mean absolutely nothing here.

 

I can give you several of my stories about being hit, or hitting someone online with the Mk. 108 and either being blown to bits or blowing someone to bits with one shot.

 

All of which says to me that the devs should do the right thing and NOT put the Mk.108 in the game now.  It does not fit the time frame, and it will be the biggest can of worms ever opened on this forum, as every "pilot" with mediocre aim will come here crying about how his German wonder weapon is porked and screaming about Russian bias.

 

You mean just like the forums are full with complaints about the one-shot-kill hispanos and the LAGGs 23mm?

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

You mean just like the forums are full with complaints about the one-shot-kill hispanos and the LAGGs 23mm?

 

So you're agreeing that most people who fly Luftwaffe find something to whine about..?

[Irgendjemand]

No, I am saying I dont see that many complaints about the mentioned guns even thou they are absolutely deadly one hit killers.
I dont see why it whould be diffrent with the 108. Even if it will be a one shot kill gun (wich I think it should absolutely be - more than any other fighter cannon in game).
If there are complaints its only telling me one thing : who the REAL whiners are..

Edited October 19, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[Finkeren]

If you think there haven’t been complaints about the effectiveness of the VYa-23, you haven’t been paying attention.

[Irgendjemand]

 

 

I dont see that many complaints

Not "none". 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Perhaps I'm missing whatever point you're trying to make..? 

 

With all of the whining you've done over the years (and continue to do whenever the slightest nuance provides you with an opportunity to do so) on both of the accounts you've used, it would be incredibly disingenuous for you to point the "whining finger" at anybody else. 

[Irgendjemand]

Without all that "whining" the FW would still be the unflyiable brick it was and the game itself would be much worse in many more than just one aspect.
So yes. Whining about things that are obviously wrong is absolutely the right thing to do!

...While I am not in any way claim any credit that anything actually changed for me. All the work to proove that the "whining" is for good reason has been done by other people.
I have too much acutal life to attend to dude:P Maybe you should also try out how "employed" actually feels? ROFL

Edited October 19, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Without all that "whining" the FW would still be the unflyiable brick it was and the game itself would be much worse in many more than just one aspect.

So yes. Whining about things that are obviously wrong is absolutely the right thing to do!

 

...While I am not in any way claim any credit that anything actually changed for me. All the work to proove that the "whining" is for good reason has been done by other people.

I have too much acutal life to attend to dude:P Maybe you should also try out how "employed" actually feels? ROFL

 

Your incessant, baseless whining and accusations of bias did absolutely nothing to compel any of the FM changes, Winger.

 

What did help is the people with knowledge on the subject banding together and providing the developer with research that could be validated and agreed upon.

 

I would like to reiterate: Your incessant, baseless whining and accusations of bias did nothing to compel any of the FM changes that were brought about through research, objective discussion, standardized testing and subsequent validation.

 

Nice ad hominem there, by the way. Don't worry, I'm employed not that that has anything at all to do with the scope of your whining in relation to the development of this entertainment software product.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[ZachariasX]

I watched that episode. They couldn't purchase the ammo anywhere so the resorted to manufacturing it themselves. Hence the lame anti-climatic fire bomb end.

No wonder. I remember, the guys often tried to get one round or so home as „memorabilia“ (an effin dangerous one) even though that was VERBOTEN. One day, too many saw that some peeps were stashing away some rounds (they were digging them in next to the shooting range in hope to get them later on when „the war was over“). Sure enough, even the daftest officer resposible noticed what went on and the whole section was in for some monumental trouble.

 

I‘m glad they couldn‘t buy those HE rounds, it is nasty stuff.

[[TWB]80hd]

I hit a 109 with a 37mm AP last night... in several places that would be the end of the 109 (or any plane, for that matter)... in this case, it must have lodged itself in the engine because it smoked oil and coolant, but continued to fight for some time after.

 

I would lay green money that the MK108 will operate in much the same way... it's going to hurt wherever it hits, and in a lot of cases will ruin an aircraft, but I doubt it'll be a one-hit-overkill like it is in 1946.  In fact, I'd expect a Pe-2 (Or something like an He-177, B-17, Wellington) to soak multiple rounds to certain areas of the fuselage, but I doubt you'll wanna take one to the wing or tail, let alone the cockpit region.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Indeed it's all about accuracy. Today a Bf-109F-2 shot a well-aimed burst at my P-40E and that was enough to tear off the whole tail section. I've also survived direct 37mm flak hits regularly. That's how ammunition works.

[Holtzauge]

No wonder. I remember, the guys often tried to get one round or so home as „memorabilia“ (an effin dangerous one) even though that was VERBOTEN. One day, too many saw that some peeps were stashing away some rounds (they were digging them in next to the shooting range in hope to get them later on when „the war was over“). Sure enough, even the daftest officer resposible noticed what went on and the whole section was in for some monumental trouble.

 

I‘m glad they couldn‘t buy those HE rounds, it is nasty stuff.

 

A 30 mm story a former work colleague once told me: When he was a conscript in the Swedish armoured forces, they had an APC model with a 30 mm on it and one evening some of the guys were sitting playing cards and a chap comes in saying “Look at what I found on the range today” and shaking the 30 mm close to his ear says” You can even hear something moving about in there”. The guys playing cards say something along the lines of: “WTF are you doing you idiot get the F out of here” whereupon said idiot goes into the neighbouring “lucka” to show off his trophy. A load bang is heard and my colleague rushes into the next room finding one guy minus a hand and an arm, and others with shrapnel wounds to the upper torso and head. Those who were witness to the incident said the guy had slammed down the round on the table for effect which of course was what the firing pin had been waiting for. Apparently all involved survived to the great disappointment of the Sergeant in charge who later lamented about the poor efficiency of the ammo they were issued with!

 

To those who did not do conscript service in Swedish armed forces this is what a standard issue “lucka” looked like complete with said table:

Edited October 19, 2017 by Holtzauge