Auto level on planes that never had it

[Ribbon]

Great for bombers (level bomb aiming) and rear gunner Thumbs up.

Not great for single pilot fighter realism at expert setting Thumbs down.

 

As for cigarette rolling, come on, roll a few in advance. Remember, prior planning

 

Have a leak (put incontinent pants on if needed), put the cat out, put the washing on, change the nappy, top up glass, put up, 'do not disturb' sign, etc, etc, etc. All this and more, especially if flying using a VR face mask. And folks, if you are reading, this sentence is for humour, so please, please no one take offence. Looking through some of the responses on this thread it looks like some may have taken offence were none was intended.

 

The bottom line from my perspective is as per the thumbs up and down, above. I think this is a perfectly reasonable stance and should not offend anyone. I accept there will be different views out there, but me having this view does not make me a bad person or public enemy number one, I hope, LOL.

 

Happy landings,

 

 

56RAF_Talisman

I like my tobacco having moisture/being fresh as possible so i roll cigarette one at a time. Rolling it in advance makes them dry and not so good.

As someome before mention solution for fighters could be 5-10% throttle decrease when on autopilot.

Removing it is terrible idea, we want to enjoy flying and not suffer if we can't go to toilet or pick up beer or something else.

Where is the limit for immersion, will we shoot ourself in RL when we die ingame in order to maintain immersion!

[II./JG77_Spaz]

Where is the limit for immersion, will we shoot ourself in RL when we die ingame in order to maintain immersion!

 

Its not the same comparison in the slightest. Were talking about a plane having an autolevel/autopilot feature when it didn't have one. No disrespect man but in my opinion thats a reasonable thing to mention.

 

I agree with you about the throttle decrease penalty. That would be a cool feature!

Edited October 1, 2017 by RavN_c4nucK

[Ribbon]

Its not the same comparison in the slightest. Were talking about a plane having an autolevel/autopilot feature when it didn't have one. No disrespect man but in my opinion thats a reasonable thing to mention.

 

I agree with you about the throttle decrease penalty. That would be a cool feature!

I was just being wordy on last part..hehe

I'm glad it's discussed so realism can be improved, but only in order to prevent exploits.

There can be compromises to keep both.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Can someone just run time tests, compare the speed gain/loss on auto-level for most airplanes and submit a bug report? If it's making aircraft fly faster than it should then we're talking about a small bug in the feature, but the feature itself isn't broken.

[II./JG77_Spaz]

Can someone just run time tests, compare the speed gain/loss on auto-level for most airplanes and submit a bug report? If it's making aircraft fly faster than it should then we're talking about a small bug in the feature, but the feature itself isn't broken.

 

Yes. This needs to be done. Great point Lucas. If I can get around to it today I'll run some test and upload some videos showing. For those of us that choose not to fly with it and fly with people that do choose to use it will all agree. The speed difference/fuel consumption is a lot more. Its not in reference to ACTUAL speed. But by increased movements therefore causing a "longer trip".

 

I'm glad it's discussed so realism can be improved, but only in order to prevent exploits.

There can be compromises to keep both.

 

Completely agree!

Edited October 1, 2017 by RavN_c4nucK

[Sokol1]

The lack of auto level is one of many reasons why I won't fly CoD.

 

But CloD don't "fly on rails"? So autolevel became unnecessary. 

[216th_Jordan]

No timeconsuming tests need to be done. Honestly..

 

Autolevel works by using the controls to keep the plane level. No new FM, no magic. Autolevel does NOT use trim so you also often have increased trimdrag in Autolevel. The exploit discussion really is rather pointless. But if you like you can of course do those tests Btw: you fly fastest in a shallow dive, not straight and level.

[busdriver]

Looking through some of the responses on this thread it looks like some may have taken offence were none was intended.

 

The bottom line from my perspective is as per the thumbs up and down, above.  I think this is a perfectly reasonable stance and should not offend anyone.  I accept there will be different views out there, but me having this view does not make me a bad person or public enemy number one, I hope, LOL.

 

Speaking for myself, I took no offense or offence. Reasonable folks can disagree, and yours is a totally reasonable position (wrong...albeit reasonable).    I'm putting you on notice that I will virtually thrash you with my "crutch" upon our next encounter on the "super duper competitive extreme realism one death and done played from a 1G comfy chair" server. Or I will simply warp extend out of the fight via the magic of auto-level.

 

In simulated hostility...

[Lusekofte]

I have no intention to take away the auto level from people, merely want to add a level more. I am not in favor taking away anything. My thoughts is that it should be a server option having it

[busdriver]

 Btw: you fly fastest in a shallow dive, not straight and level.

Agreed with the deleted portion of your post. But to clarify, one will fly fastest is a steep dive. One will accelerate fastest at less than 1g (we described it as light in the seat). Theoretically it's probably 0g, (I'd have to confirm with an aero textbook) but in the heat of battle it is much easier to achieve light in the seat versus 0g, because without a great deal of practice pilots tend to overshoot and push negative g. So the approximate light in the seat sensation is the practical standard. Which brings me to the shallow dive remark. A shallow dive approximates the light in the seat, less than 1g flight condition.

[Talisman]

Speaking for myself, I took no offense or offence. Reasonable folks can disagree, and yours is a totally reasonable position (wrong...albeit reasonable).    I'm putting you on notice that I will virtually thrash you with my "crutch" upon our next encounter on the "super duper competitive extreme realism one death and done played from a 1G comfy chair" server. Or I will simply warp extend out of the fight via the magic of auto-level.

 

In simulated hostility...

Yes, magic auto warp power.  Sounds like a futuristic space age game with no issues concerning earth bound flight modelling or simple historic WWII aircraft accuracy.  I think I see where you are coming from now with this comfy chair fetish.  A big comfy zero-G chair just like Captain Kirk.  Engage the auto level button for those long tedious space flights from one galaxy to another.  I think I can see the attraction now my eyes have been opened.  How wrong I have been to even suggest something that might not be all together super duper 'comfy'.  LOL.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[BraveSirRobin]

Shame, I thought you were braver than that BraveSirRobin

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

Really? Maybe you should watch the movie again.

[LukeFF]

This thread is really 4 pages now? 

[xvii-Dietrich]

Can someone just run time tests, compare the speed gain/loss on auto-level for most airplanes and submit a bug report? If it's making aircraft fly faster than it should then we're talking about a small bug in the feature, but the feature itself isn't broken.

 

 

Ju52/3m g4e, full fuel, full-load, tactical altitude 100m. 100% throttle, inlet cowls and oil-cooler. 0% Höhengas.

 

• Completely trimmed (yaw-trim = -41%), no auto-leveller = 202 km/h (but... see below).
• Yaw-trim = -100%, auto-leveller = 202 km/h
• Yaw-trim = +100%, auto-leveller = 202 km/h

 

Basically, the yaw trim tab setting makes no difference to the speed when the auto-leveller is on.

 

However, even with yaw trimmed and stabiliser set, you have to keep nudging it to keep course. Otherwise, it rolls right. To correct this, you apply differential throttle, driving the centre and right engines at full, but throttling back the left engine. A minor adjustment to the yaw trim is then needed, but it trims nicely and flies level.

 

But... that means throttle back one engine, thus a loss of power and hence speed.

 

As a result, for the Ju 52, the auto-leveller will always give better performance than a non-auto-levelled, but fully correctly trimmed aircraft.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

But does that sliver of performance really matter?

 

As I mentioned earlier, if your target feels safe enough to auto-level, you've already missed your window to shoot him down. If he is still in range, auto-level is a death sentence.

[xvii-Dietrich]

But does that sliver of performance really matter?

 

As I mentioned earlier, if your target feels safe enough to auto-level, you've already missed your window to shoot him down. If he is still in range, auto-level is a death sentence.

 

The death sentence in a Ju 52 is not switching on the auto-leveller... it is switching on the engines.  

 

Regardless, a) the best possible performance in that aircraft is with auto-level switched on and b) auto-level counter-acts any trim-settings with zero penalty. That's okay, but it just doesn't really encourage refined flying.

[Guest deleted@30725]

This thread is really 4 pages now? 

 

I think people can argue this into 10 pages with no real point coming from any of it. People will just have to agree to disagree on this one because for or against I can't see it being removed or changed any time soon.

[II./JG77_Spaz]

 

 

Regardless, a) the best possible performance in that aircraft is with auto-level switched on and b) auto-level counter-acts any trim-settings with zero penalty. That's okay, but it just doesn't really encourage refined flying.

 

This right here was what I was getting at but didn't have the numbers to make a thought out post like that. Thanks for doing what I couldn't!

[3rd-BG_Concho]

It is a very nice feature to have in this simulation.  Lets not muck it up shall we.  

[unreasonable]

Agreed with the deleted portion of your post. But to clarify, one will fly fastest is a steep dive. One will accelerate fastest at less than 1g (we described it as light in the seat). Theoretically it's probably 0g, (I'd have to confirm with an aero textbook) but in the heat of battle it is much easier to achieve light in the seat versus 0g, because without a great deal of practice pilots tend to overshoot and push negative g. So the approximate light in the seat sensation is the practical standard. Which brings me to the shallow dive remark. A shallow dive approximates the light in the seat, less than 1g flight condition.

 

I think it is zero g since to get that you need zero lift, so zero AoA and zero induced drag. Could be wrong.

 

Perhaps the game needs a auto zero g setting.    

[jaydee]

Hi all. I think the Auto-level and Pause are two necesesry consessions to realism. After all, we are "Playing a Game" in our Living Rooms and "Full-Real" life may interupt that..If a Pilot (Player) doesnt like them, he doesnt have to use them.

Speaking of "Full-Real" , "Hardcore", "Expert"... I presume you guys dont have a "Chatbar" in the cockpit. That Chatbar would give you "Instant Real Time " information about the Battle Field. The Chatbar would "Confirm" all your Victories ! The "Chatbar" would give you EA locations and Lots more info. I cant remember seeing a Chatbar in any WW2 Aircraft cockpit.

I also presume you don't use TeamSpeak. Communications in WW2 Aircraft were either Non Existent or Rudimentary by todays standards...So lets ban Aircraft that didn't have radios from TeamSpeak ?

~S~

[Jade_Monkey]

I'm way more interested in not crashing when I have to pee or get a beer (that will result in having to pee later) than I am in trying to act hardcore. Having said that, I'm now on board with an option to get rid of auto level. All 3 hardcore MP players who don't want anyone using auto level and who go to the trouble to attach themselves to a catheter should definitely have their own server.

Thrustmaster Combat Catheter®

[ZachariasX]

Thrustmaster Combat Catheter®

Has it been tested on monekys?

[Jade_Monkey]

Has it been tested on monekys?

Cannot answer that question, I'm under NDA.

[[TWB]80hd]

What I don't like is how if you're flying in winter with your canopy open, you aren't actually getting your face frostbitten.  Perhaps in the next patch?

[Inkophile]

One more reason for keeping auto-level as far as I'm concerned is simply typing. Actually writing in chat is necessary for teamwide communication (or for all chat), and it's really friggin' hard to type a moderately long message with any kind of speed with only one hand if one has to remain on the stick.

[curiousGamblerr]

...

 

b) auto-level counter-acts any trim-settings with zero penalty. That's okay, but it just doesn't really encourage refined flying.

 

Can you elaborate on this?

 

I've never done a formal test, but I find autolevel can be very draggy if you aren't actually trimmed level in the first place.

[216th_Jordan]

Can you elaborate on this?

 

I've never done a formal test, but I find autolevel can be very draggy if you aren't actually trimmed level in the first place.

 

It depends on the type of trim, with stabtrim you get quite some drag while with trimtabs the effect is smaller. The effect does not magically disappear when on autolevel and I absolutely agree with you in the observation. The Ju52 is probably not the best plane to test this as it is so incredibly slow

Edited October 2, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[curiousGamblerr]

It depends on the type of trim, with stabtrim you get quite some drag while with trimtabs the effect is smaller. The effect does not magically disappear when on autolevel and I absolutely agree with you in the observation. The Ju52 is probably not the best plane to test this as it is so incredibly slow

 

Yeah stab trim is exactly what I was thinking of, on the 109 in particular. I noticed the other day you can turn around and see the elevator working against the stab when on autolevel, and adjust the stab by sight until no more elevator is deflection is needed. I'll have to take note of speed difference next time I play but I'd be very surprised if there was none. I've definitely adjusted trims in the Ju52 while on autolevel and watched a speed increase occur.

[xvii-Dietrich]

b) auto-level counter-acts any trim-settings with zero penalty. That's okay, but it just doesn't really encourage refined flying.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

My understanding is that the Auto-leveller should apply a bit of control (i.e. joystick/rudder pressure) to keep the aircraft flying level. So, if the aircraft is trimmed, the joystick pressure should be 0%. If you over-trim a bit too far (let's say +5% too much), then the auto-leveller would apply -5% of joystick/rudder control to keep it flying level. In other words, the "auto-level counter-acts any trim setting".

 

 

Now, if you trim one way, and the auto-leveller corrects the stick-pressure the other way, you should be creating extra drag. Auto-levelling a trimmed aircraft should result in greater speed than auto-levelling a badly trimmed one. However, the auto-leveller is doing without causing extra drag... i.e. "zero penalty".

 

You can try it...

 

• Trim the aircraft and note the speed. Then yaw-trim hard-right, but apply stick/rudder pressure to remain flying level. There is a significant drop in speed doing this.
• Now apply the auto-leveller. The speed picks up again.
• Now, with auto-level still on, try adjusting the yaw-trim. You can (slowly) go from -100% to 100% without any long-term effects. Thus "zero penalty".

 

(Note that if you yaw trim suddenly the aircraft does jerk about a bit and drops speed, but it will quickly pick back up again.)

[curiousGamblerr]

Yeah, that's what I thought you meant, sorry to make you have to outline it. I'm surprised by the "zero penalty" part because I could swear I've seen a speed increase when autoleveled for a while (stable speed) and then remembering to trim in the Ju52. But I haven't done a formal test so I can't say for sure.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Stupidest thread ever

[Tygrys]

This thread servers no further purpose. It devolved into an e-peen measuring contest.

 

I've flown flight sims since the first IL2, excluding CloD, and I remember using it back then too. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that feature and the miniscule performance differences aren't even worth investigating. With how small BoX community is I'm sure you'd be doing a solid favour if you removed this. That and expect me to suddenly leave your precious, leet server, if that's the only thing left at some point, just to get something done in the house instead of just auto levelling and coming back a dozen seconds later.

 

Yes, flight sims are difficult games but they are still GAMES. I want to play something I enjoy, not fight with the game and it's controls. The elitism levels in this thread coming off some people are just ridiculous.

[216th_Jordan]

 

 

 

My understanding is that the Auto-leveller should apply a bit of control (i.e. joystick/rudder pressure) to keep the aircraft flying level. So, if the aircraft is trimmed, the joystick pressure should be 0%. If you over-trim a bit too far (let's say +5% too much), then the auto-leveller would apply -5% of joystick/rudder control to keep it flying level. In other words, the "auto-level counter-acts any trim setting".

 

 

Now, if you trim one way, and the auto-leveller corrects the stick-pressure the other way, you should be creating extra drag. Auto-levelling a trimmed aircraft should result in greater speed than auto-levelling a badly trimmed one. However, the auto-leveller is doing without causing extra drag... i.e. "zero penalty".

 

You can try it...

 

• Trim the aircraft and note the speed. Then yaw-trim hard-right, but apply stick/rudder pressure to remain flying level. There is a significant drop in speed doing this.
• Now apply the auto-leveller. The speed picks up again.
• Now, with auto-level still on, try adjusting the yaw-trim. You can (slowly) go from -100% to 100% without any long-term effects. Thus "zero penalty".

(Note that if you yaw trim suddenly the aircraft does jerk about a bit and drops speed, but it will quickly pick back up again.)

What you IMO miss here is that most trim systems work by moving the default stick position or the position preset of the actual control surface, this however can always be countered by control input. Stabtrim is different as it does not move the control surface but the stabilizer over which the autoleveler has no authority.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

What you IMO miss here is that most trim systems work by moving the default stick position or the position preset of the actual control surface, this however can always be countered by control input. Stabtrim is different as it does not move the control surface but the stabilizer over which the autoleveler has no authority.

Yes, you can feel (shift of center) or not (stab) on Force Feedback joystick.