Auto level on planes that never had it

[II./JG77_Spaz]

More difficult does not mean more realistic.

 

"But if the planes didn't have it, it's not realistic!" - Wrong. Real pilots can feel movement, they can check a map and fly level at the same time without a problem. With auto level, so can we, so it actually makes the game more realistic in a roundabout way.

 

This post right here did a good job of helping to shift the way I viewed the feature. Thanks for posting!

Edited October 1, 2017 by RavN_c4nucK

[busdriver]

Tonight, I flew a Pe2 on MP and even though I was using the same engine and aircraft settings as my lead, in level flight on the same heading, he pulls away from me if he puts this auto level/pilot thingy on.  The wingman always uses more fuel and has to manoeuvre etc, but if the leader uses this auto level/pilot thing the wingman is at even more of a disadvantage.

 

Clearly the OP has made a good point in raising this issue and I am grateful for that.  There would appear to be perhaps unintended consequences to this crutch, flight aid or app thing named auto level in the game.  

 

From my perspective, I am now even more convinced that this auto level/pilot feature for all aircraft types should have no place in the expert highest level on-line competitive MP servers.  However, I can see that I will just have to put up with it if I want to continue with BoX, even though in my eyes the integrity of this flight sim has just dropped a notch and this issue is always going to be a niggle in the back of my mind; particularly when comparing quality of flight sim immersion and realism with other flight sim products. 

 

 

Perhaps I take my flight simulation a bit too seriously, but I think this auto level pilot feature is in danger of making a mockery in terms of the expert setting.  

 

Professionally, here's a RL fighter pilot technique, feel free to use at your leisure. As a wingman, if your flight lead begins to pull away (even if he's engaged auto-level), simply press your push to talk button and say, "Lead, gimme one." That's it, your professional fighter pilot flight lead will look at you whilst simultaneously reducing his power a couple of percent RPM or ATA. Minor adjustment is all that is required unless you have other problems. Problem solved. 

 

Diplomatically, calling a capability (auto-level) a crutch is probably not going to convince those with opposing views that you're not being insulting. This is afterall a hobby, not a RL endeavor with mortal consequences.

 

Humourously, where might one find the Tables, schedule of Fixtures or Friendlies for this 1G, comfy chair, climate controlled, high integrity, expert only, one death per player Premier League?

 

Finally, I suspect you have indeed self-identified a potential loss of perspective in your quest for air combat simulation Nirvana. This is a hobby enjoyed at 1G in a comfy chair without threat of a visit by the Spanish Inquisition. (obtuse reference to Monty Python)

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

FYI: I am stealing your liberal use of 1g references and shall be using it quite liberally myself.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Pardon the expletive but the competitive multiplayer mentality wanks off itself to an unbelievably degree.

 

The vast majority of online players are just regular people trying to get a good time, yet there's always that half a dozen who feel that either they're entitled to disable a useful feature for others to make sure their imaginary arena is EXPERT enough to their tastes or use these features to get some kind of competitive advantage.

 

There is no reason to remove a useful feature that almost all players use just to address the self-indulging minority. Some people will game the game, but they're such an insignificant portion that user friendliness shan't be compromised over small groups of people. What a useless debate this is.

Thank you!

[busdriver]

FYI: I am stealing your liberal use of 1g references and shall be using it quite liberally myself.

My legal department informed me that all future references to 1G must include comfy chair. The use of the lower case g, per your example, does not carry this caveat. 

[II./JG77_Spaz]

Professionally, here's a RL fighter pilot technique, feel free to use at your leisure. As a wingman, if your flight lead begins to pull away (even if he's engaged auto-level), simply press your push to talk button and say, "Lead, gimme one." That's it, your professional fighter pilot flight lead will look at you whilst simultaneously reducing his power a couple of percent RPM or ATA. Minor adjustment is all that is required unless you have other problems. Problem solved. 

 

Diplomatically, calling a capability (auto-level) a crutch is probably not going to convince those with opposing views that you're not being insulting. This is afterall a hobby, not a RL endeavor with mortal consequences.

 

Well put. I enjoyed reading that. Thanks for the input!

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

My legal department informed me that all future references to 1G must include comfy chair. The use of the lower case g, per your example, does not carry this caveat.

I am adding a 1g fighter pilot design to my LuftWhiner T shirt line!

[II./JG77_Spaz]

I hope its under the Stalinium line!

[BraveSirRobin]

Other combat flight sims I fly don't have it

 

The lack of auto level is one of many reasons why I won't fly CoD.

[busdriver]

I am adding a 1g fighter pilot design to my LuftWhiner T shirt line!

 

Oh man...imagine the back of the shirt, (from the viewer's POV...follow along at home), out at arm's length you see the back of your left hand (it's in a level hard right hand turn) with the wrist watch belching a smoke trail, you see the palm of your right hand (fingers pointed to the ceiling going for turning room above the left's plane of motion). Or it could be a Yak with his flaps out...

 

On the front...above the left breast a small but readable logo of a HOTAS setup with "1g Ace...hole" between the controllers. Dare I say Brilliant?

[Haza]

Gents,

 

Whether you agree or disagree with the OP, the fact remains that using auto-level can give players an advantage, even if just using auto-leveling in clouds to escape, when some aircraft do not even have an artificial horizon to know if you are level or not without using your speed or rate of climb to give you any indication.  I only have a modest PPL, however, trimming my aircraft was and is always my priority to try and reduce my work load and allow me time to do other things.  Therefore, if certain servers which to enact historical accuracy then perhaps the OP has a valid point regarding being able to turn it on/off.  Allowing a playing to put the aircraft into auto-level to do other things does gives that player an advantage (I have kids and a Wife so this ability does for me come in handy at times). 

 

I for one totally disagree with the GPS system, however, I recall during a recent up-date the GPS functionality was lost on the WOL server and it was amazing to see the number of guys who left the server because the GPS was not working and some of these players were the same guys who complained bitterly about historical accurate FMs or weapon effects, yet were comfortable to use the GPS, chat and TS without a care in the world.

 

Therefore, perhaps the OP DOES has a valid point that auto-level functionality should be able to be turned on/off if the server host wishes that to be so.  I for one see that as an opportunity to sort the real sims guys out from the arcade types who care perhaps more about their stats than any real historically accuracy.  

 

Regards

Edited October 1, 2017 by Haza

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

This is slowly devolving into a "I'm way more hardcore than you are, noob," thread.

[Haza]

This is slowly devolving into a "I'm way more hardcore than you are, noob," thread.

 

Just carry-on with making your T-Shirt and let us see the outcome!

However, there are enough servers out there to allow guys to decide what and how they are felling to join which ever server they wish to give them their fix. 

The ability to allow hosts to turn the auto-level off is up to them surely and they should be allowed to do so as they can do with GPS?

 

I'm certainly not hard-core and enjoy WOL, but I enjoyed also TAW, when trying to navigate to a target with minimum cloud base.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Haza

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm way more interested in not crashing when I have to pee or get a beer (that will result in having to pee later) than I am in trying to act hardcore.  Having said that, I'm now on board with an option to get rid of auto level.  All 3 hardcore MP players who don't want anyone using auto level and who go to the trouble to attach themselves to a catheter should definitely have their own server.

[Haza]

I'm way more interested in not crashing when I have to pee or get a beer (that will result in having to pee later) than I am in trying to act hardcore.  Having said that, I'm now on board with an option to get rid of auto level.  All 3 hardcore MP players who don't want anyone using auto level and who go to the trouble to attach themselves to a catheter should definitely have their own server.

 

Trim, or bring a *iss bag!

 

Hang on, you drink and fly????? :-)

Edited October 1, 2017 by Haza

[BraveSirRobin]

Trim, or bring a *iss bag!

 

You bring a piss bag. I'll fly on servers that allow auto level. There probably aren't enough people willing to attach a catheter to keep an MP server active.

[Haza]

You bring a piss bag. I'll fly on servers that allow auto level. There probably aren't enough people willing to attach a catheter to keep an MP server active.

 

I play on enough servers with players taking the *iss without having to worry about me taking one!  However, at my age going to the toilet isn't an issue as my prostate is in perfect condition!

Most games last say 2 1/2 hours so i can hold on very well!

 

Currently on my third Pimms and so far so good!!

Edited October 1, 2017 by Haza

[BraveSirRobin]

Whether you can go 2+ hours isn't the problem. You will be alone if you fly on a server that doesn't allow auto level.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Wow, I'd love to have 2 1/2 hours to fly at a stretch.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

Keep.. how am I supposed to get anther beer or two in flight... or a shot of absinth... if I’m without it?

...or to ”dispose” of mentioned beverages during a long patrol or bomb raid. I Do know what real pilots did, but I can kind of predict the mrs’ reaction

[ZachariasX]

If we cannot have autolevel, then, for realisms sake, there should be a requirement that planes are only allowed to take off when they have all players required for the full crew...

 

Seriously, it is a game. It is already hardcore as it is now. We don‘t even have proper weather in this sim and some consider taking away the opportunity to take a piss as a step forward in realism.

 

Real pilots didn‘t have spouses or kids walking up to them (ah, remember the „Boss Key“?) while they were on a sortie. So please... Think of it that way, you at least get to frag a steady target instead of seeing it suddenly spiral to its doom before you can have a pass at it.

[Lusekofte]

 

 

Perhaps I take my flight simulation a bit too seriously, but I think this auto level pilot feature is in danger of making a mockery in terms of the expert setting.  Are we sure that this feature can't be turned off at the discretion of the on-line server operator, particularly server side?

 

 

I agree on your point, and to me flight simulators need to have a historical significance / meaning, I need to relate to the game in order to enjoy it. And it is such a small detail that put me off, like the bomb aimer interface , I know it is tolerable and should be accepted , but to me it simply will not do, the auto level thing too, it was the thing I had problems with in old IL 2 too, I know it is silly, but there it is. 

I abort missions the moment I see people taking off cross the field and not taxi to runway, I do not interact with such people, not that I dislike them, I simply can not relate to the game when I see that, it become a cfs shooter game in a second

[ZachariasX]

Actually, why not also allowing „full AI“ autopilot? So that you can lean back and see how AI flies the mission (or until it gets wasted). AI is certainly not threatening on multiplayer servers, especially servers such as WoL. It would be just fodder for the Hartmanns out there. But it could show you how missions are flown. Fact is, people go „online“ way faster than it is good for them in BoX. Most other online games even ecourage you to go multiplayer directly, as this is where the game really is. Here, without 500 hours of practising and TS, the game is nothing more than an extended form of getting spawn snuffed and you are basically driving casual players away with a club.

 

And if you are a super seasoned Hartmann, one that can sit for hours unmolested his man cave, then you can still put your feet in ice water to simulate for Stalingrad weather, piss in your pants if you have to and you can still shoot all noobs on autopilot with ease.

 

I just wonder why nobody objects that players that are farther away than 10 kilometers from each other, can still be on TS with each other. And that bombers are even „on the same frequency“.

 

TS is a game changer. In RoF it is especially ridiculous. Autolevel is an aiming help for the enemy.

[Yogiflight]

 

 

Watch you tube videos, how many show fully zoomed back aspects to give a wild field of view; a fair few.

Not only zooming back, but also zooming forward to see as if the pilot is using binoculars. Plus, what I also saw in youtube videos, changing the camera position that much forward, that they can look to their six over the steel armor head protection in a 109.

[56RAF_Roblex]

There seem to be two objections to Auto-level and only one reason people want to keep it

 

Objection 1)  It gives players an unfair advantage in terms of eaking out the last few kph in a chase

Objection 2)  It is unrealistic and detracts from some players enjoyment.

 

Reason 1)  It allows a person who is not isolated from domestic problems in a RL cockpit to get a way from his desk to solve an issue without his aircraft crashing.

 

 

Objection 1 can be easily solved by setting a proviso that Auto-level will also reduce your throttle by 10%.  If all you are using it for is to get away from your desk to take care of an urgent issue then a small drop in speed will not affect you at all. If you are flying with friends etc then you simply advise them that you have to go AFK and that they need to slow slightly; much as you might tell them when spawning that you are going AFK for one minute to grab a drink or have a pee so they need to wait before deciding the plan or taking off.

 

Objection 2 is easily solved by the disgruntled player just not using Auto-level. It really is that simple. You may as well get upset that other drivers are listening to a Country & Western station. Who cares as long as nobody is forcing you to?  If he really has a strong issue with players getting an extra 5kmh (a minor concern in my opinion) then having Auto-level reduce their throttle solves it.

The use of GPS is a different issue because a pilot who prefers to navigate by himself is still faced by an icon showing his position and cannot pretend he has not seen it but Auto-level is a non-issue for me.

 

Personally, after the initial frustration when playing on the Finnish server and being constantly lost,  I have grown to enjoy the extra tension of frantically trying to establish my position and work out a course to the nearest base before my mortally wounded engine gives up    I just think it a shame that the stats system does not care whether I am back behind the lines before I crash land.    I would rather that GPS was something I could turn off myself when I am in a server that has it turned on.  Then everyone is happy.  OK, I admit that if it was *my* server I would reduce a persons final score slightly every time they used GPS; like the way a puzzle might reduce your score for asking for a hint. Luckily for you I don't run a server    

[ZachariasX]

The only objection to autolevel seems to be that it is an advantage (is it really?) for everyone and not just for an advantage for some Hartmanns.

[Lusekofte]

 

 

Some of us want the sim as real as possible. Some of us just want a good time with moderate realism

 

You see this is where I disagree with developers strategy, clearly this game got the function to step up a degree or 4 on realism, but somehow refuse to do so. I cannot understand why not add a couple of more levels in difficulty in the interface should be a problem. 

I personally want a total redo of control interface too, but realise this is something I might be alone in,  Anyway it is what it is , and I enjoy many hours in it

[Ribbon]

My vote is for keeping autolevel ingame in order to;

-being able to use rear gunner

-being able to roll a cigarette (need both hands to do it).

[56RAF_Roblex]

 I think the biggest jump in the learning curve was switching from IL2-1946 to CLoD with Complex Engine Management.  Everyone was saying 'HTF do we get this engine to last more than two minutes before exploding?'  then a month later we are all adjusting our revs and rads without thinking about it (with occasional  mistakes of course  )    I can remember when I took my first driving lessons thinking 'How am I supposed to pull away at a junction, keep watching the traffic and turn the wheel while changing up to 2nd gear all at the same time?. It's impossible!.'  Now its all autopilot.

 

Nevertheless, while appreciating that it is good to have aids to help ease a person up from total beginner to taking off the training wheels,  I cannot help but feel a little disgust at pilots that have been flying for years and have no intention of ever learning to do it without artificial aids because all they want is the maximum kills per hour and the minimum time spent doing unnecessary things like land, take-off or even adjust the throttle from FULL.

[xvii-Dietrich]

I have spent this morning doing some testing in a g4e and I can consistently get a significant speed increase using the auto-leveller (REF). I would challenge those who claim that you can get better performance by manually trimming to explain exactly how they obtain their results.

 

I certainly enjoy the challenge of trimming and tweaking the aircraft to the n^th degree, which is why I also fly civil-aviation sims so much. Likewise, I would not shy away from a server which had auto-level somehow disabled. But I also know that the auto-leveller gives me a major advantage, as well as letting me concentrate on other things (such as where-on-earth-am-I?).

[Yogiflight]

In hundrets of flying hours, I never lost an aircraft because I was looking on my fullscreen map, however I very well know this gamey effect in old IL2, as well as in BOX, where a well trimmed aircaft starts to roll in that moment I am looking on the map, or in multi crew aircrafts, when I change position to a gunner seat.

[II./JG77_Spaz]

My vote is for keeping autolevel ingame in order to;

-being able to use rear gunner

-being able to roll a cigarette (need both hands to do it).

 

This right here ^^^ Best argument yet!

[II./JG77_Spaz]

Not really. Its been pretty respecful. You don't have to post. Why not just leave then? There is no trolling here other than yours. Its also not my job to try and convince you and I'm not going to waste my time going back and forth with you. Take care of yourself.

 

Happy hunting

Edited October 1, 2017 by RavN_c4nucK

[DD_Arthur]

I don't care for what you want to appear as, but you right there sir have given away yourself as trolling.

 

 

All in all, well done with your successful trolling escapade, and good riddance to you!

 

Totally uncalled for.   

[Ribbon]

There was a British Actor/comedian Milke Reid who could roll a cigarette (not a spliff) with one hand, I was always quite impressed at the dexterity that enabled that!

I have few friends who can do it but without filter!

Me, i won't even try it!

[216th_Jordan]

Shooting planes that are on auto level is pure joy. I am absolutely on the side of having the option to disable technochat for MP but Autolevel? No way, keep it please. Enough arguments have been brought up to why it should stay.

[Talisman]

My vote is for keeping autolevel ingame in order to;

-being able to use rear gunner

-being able to roll a cigarette (need both hands to do it).

Great for bombers (level bomb aiming) and rear gunner Thumbs up.

Not great for single pilot fighter realism at expert setting Thumbs down.

 

As for cigarette rolling, come on, roll a few in advance.  Remember, prior planning

 

Have a leak (put incontinent pants on if needed), put the cat out, put the washing on, change the nappy, top up glass, put up, 'do not disturb' sign, etc, etc, etc.  All this and more, especially if flying using a VR face mask.  And folks, if you are reading, this sentence is for humour, so please, please no one take offence.  Looking through some of the responses on this thread it looks like some may have taken offence were none was intended.

 

The bottom line from my perspective is as per the thumbs up and down, above.  I think this is a perfectly reasonable stance and should not offend anyone.  I accept there will be different views out there, but me having this view does not make me a bad person or public enemy number one, I hope, LOL.

 

Happy landings,

 

 

56RAF_Talisman

Edited October 1, 2017 by 56RAF_Talisman

[II./JG77_Spaz]

Beautifully put Talisman. Thank you for expressing that.

[Talisman]

The lack of auto level is one of many reasons why I won't fly CoD.

Shame, I thought you were braver than that BraveSirRobin

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[II./JG77_Spaz]

Well I think it has been discussed a fair bit and Lord knows this thread has had its share of views. Thanks for the banter/debate/respectful opinions. At the end of the day it boils down to preference when it comes to using it. But the advantages have been brought up. As well as the disadvantages of it. The choice is up to you. 

 

Happy hunting!