How to make a video about Stalingrad...wow!

[Mysticpuma]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=63d_1387228911

 

Cheers, MP

[Jaws2002]

 

Now put all that in the game.

[Fifi]

At first, i thought it was about special effects of my favourit Stalingrad movie, Ennemy at the Gates (by the French JJ Anneau)...but no...

What is the title of this Russian one? Just Stalingrad? 

Fantastics special effects by the way!

 

Have you seen this one?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOcYq5tVxyM

 

[Cybermat47]

Have you seen this one?  

No offence or anything, but that 'Based on a True Story' should really read 'We took a true story and added sex, fame, and superhumanly skilled snipers.'

[Fifi]

Yes Cyber, i tend to agree  ...but war never killed love, thanks God!...and love could still be there, even in hell.

[=38=Tatarenko]

The original video is from the making of the film Stalingrad 3D which has just been released in Russia. I saw it (in Stalingrad!) in October and enjoyed it a lot! A lot of it is clearly CGI etc but it's a good story and very impressively done, as the video shows.

[Schmalzfaust]

10 more years and we have this detail in games in realtime 

[Sternjaeger]

I still don't understand how the nose section of that He111 is supposed not to bend on impact.. 

[Bando]

Amazing what can be done to trick the eye.

[Cybermat47]

I still don't understand how the nose section of that He111 is supposed not to bend on impact.. 

At least it's better than Pearl Harbor, in which an American pilot in a Spitfire (wearing POLISH squadron codes) manages to blow the nose off a He-111 with a short burst from his .303s    

[Schmalzfaust]

I still don't understand how the nose section of that He111 is supposed not to bend on impact.. 

 

[Cybermat47]

I don't think that a movie about Stalingrad could be better than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QlK-l-vpZQ

[Sternjaeger]

 

LOL 

[=38=Tatarenko]

I don't think that a movie about Stalingrad could be better than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QlK-l-vpZQ

 

That is definitely the best. But Stalingrad 3D is from the Russian side.

[Fifi]

I don't think that a movie about Stalingrad could be better than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QlK-l-vpZQ

 

Hehe...from the makers of Das Boot!...it has to be good then! 

[Cybermat47]

Hehe...from the makers of Das Boot!...it has to be good then! 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's actually better than Das Boot 

[ACG_Kraut]

Man, those are some of the most impressive and moving visuals I have seen, even if it is CGI. Just amazing.

[Bearcat]

There is nothing that is impossible on film now a days .. Very impressive..

[Cybermat47]

There is nothing that is impossible on film now a days ..

Well, almost nothing. They're still working on making some actors believable 

[MarcoRossolini]

No offence or anything, but that 'Based on a True Story' should really read 'We took a true story and added sex, fame, and superhumanly skilled snipers.'

 

 

Not quite... the film is based on an account which I think was in Zaitzev's memoirs where he and a German sniper dueled for 3 days before the German sniper stood up thinking he'd been killed and at that point Zaitzev got him. There is even the German sniper's rifle in the Armed Forces Museum in Moscow iirc.

 

HOWEVER:

 

Antony Beevor in Stalingrad says that this is unlikely to the extreme because the cult of sniperism received tons of attention from the Soviet media and anything like the action seen in enemy at the gates would have had all sorts of newspaper reports on it, of which there are none on such an event as described above. There is however an account from Zaitzev which was written down by Vasili Grossman of a day long duel with an enemy sniper which Zaitzev eventually won, this is possibly where the story came from.

Also, the cult of sniperism was real, but there was more to it as lots of men from different units, not just snipers, vied to be the "best" in their profession. There were also mortarmen and grenade throwers. The snipers on 40 kills would also receive the title. "noble sniper".

 

re: the romance thing, I read in a Flames of War supplement (a wargames rule set) that the girl in Enemy at the Gates was real and did become his lover. However I can't verify this as I haven't read it anywhere else...

 

I'm getting hold of the 2013 film as we speak, I'll see what it's like. I hate to say this but being a Russian film it doesn't automatically make me confident about it. The Russians to my mind have a way of looking at the "great patriotic war" through rose (or red) tinted glasses... 

[Cybermat47]

I'm getting hold of the 2013 film as we speak, I'll see what it's like. I hate to say this but being a Russian film it doesn't automatically make me confident about it. The Russians to my mind have a way of looking at the "great patriotic war" through rose (or red) tinted glasses...

 

Agreed. From what I can tell from the trailers, the main villain (played by Thomas Kretschmann, who played Hans von Witzland in the 1993 film) is a fanatical Nazi and rapist. But then again, Russia suffered terribly in the war, so I think it's worth giving them some consideration.

 

BTW, the other stuff about Enemy at the Gates you posted was interesting. Thanks

Edited December 18, 2013 by Cybermat47

[Fifi]

Thanks Marco for this clarification.

Didn't know the girl of Ennemy at the Gate had existed.

But when you know about the film maker Jean Jacques Anneau, no surprise he tried to close history.

[MarcoRossolini]

The girl in Enemy at the Gates is unconfirmed tbh, I wouldn't fully trust a wargames rulebook, I'm still waiting for something more reputable to confirm it for now.

 

TBH Anneau followed "a" history, basically the one written by Soviet era memoirs of the war, but as above, there is no evidence that this fantastical sniper duel took place over such a period with such a man as a Major Koenig. It's basically just a sniper duel which kept being blown into something bigger.

 

With regards to German rapes, a lot of Soviet media likes to portray the Germans as doing that but I'm trying to find actual accounts/evidence of it. We have plenty of evidence of Soviet Soldiers in Germany doing it to German women (whatever Soviet/Russian authorities might claim otherwise) but I'm still waiting on Germans doing it to the Russians... There is of course evidence of women selling themselves for food and protection but...

 

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I just haven't found any yet...

 

It's a dangerous topic I'm afraid. 

[Cybermat47]

With regards to German rapes, a lot of Soviet media likes to portray the Germans as doing that but I'm trying to find actual accounts/evidence of it. We have plenty of evidence of Soviet Soldiers in Germany doing it to German women (whatever Soviet/Russian authorities might claim otherwise) but I'm still waiting on Germans doing it to the Russians... There is of course evidence of women selling themselves for food and protection but...

 

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I just haven't found any yet...

 

It's a dangerous topic I'm afraid.

It probably did happen, seeing as there was a nursery for the illegitimate sons of SS officers. It's in a book called 'The World War II Album' that mysteriously turned up on my family's doorstep. And I'm not joking there, it just randomly turned up with another one about WWI . Edited December 18, 2013 by Cybermat47

[Primus_71]

 

 

We have plenty of evidence of Soviet Soldiers in Germany doing it to German women (whatever Soviet/Russian authorities might claim otherwise)...

 

Can you be more specific about the evidence "you" have of Soviet Soldiers raping German women in Germany? 

 

And what kind of evidence are you looking specifically, to be convinced that there had been cases of German troops raping Russian women in Russia during WWII?

 

And regarding your claim that "There is of course evidence of women selling themselves for food and protection but...". What specific evidence are you referring to? And how do you know for certain that it was not the case also for German women during Soviet invasion of Germany?

 

 

 

 

[MarcoRossolini]

I'm awaiting stuff on German troops raping Russian women because put simply I just haven't seen anything yet. Russian movies and TV shows aren't legitimate sources I'm afraid. I bet there was plenty of cases, But I just haven't read about it yet. :/ If you have stuff then I'd be much obliged, the whole era fascinates me simply for how bad it war. 

 

Okay, evidence I've read, off the top of my head there are reports from Soviet sources about what was going on, as well as anecdotes both from Soviet soldiers who witnessed acts and of course the German women themselves, obviously the soldiers who did it aren't so forward about it.

 

I'm afraid though we're going off topic, sorry OP. 

Saw the movie, I'm afraid it falls into the trap that many other films (Titanic comes to mind) of focusing in on a few relatively meaningless people and ignoring what was actually happening (this huge and terrible battle) everywhere else.

[Primus_71]

You might want to see "Stalingrad," a German-made movie about that particular battle, unless you haven't already seen it. There is a scene in there about a Russian woman (an NCO iirc) who was used as a sex slave by German officers.

 

By the way, acts of rape by troops were punishable by death in both the German Wehrmacht and the Soviet Red Army (as it is very bad for morale and discipline), although perhaps in some cases it was overlooked.  But I don't believe it was a systematic policy in either army. Anyhow, you are right, this is way off topic.

 

S.

[No601_Swallow]

(To reference Antony Beevor again (this time Berlin: the Downfall 1945), Soviet propaganda frequently and explicitly cited the "rape" of the Motherland by the German invaders, to encourage Russian outrage and resistance. This sexualization of the violence of war had predictable consequence. Thus, with the Russian invasion of Prussia, rape became a de facto instrument of war, as has happened historically many times. By all accounts it was very widespread in north eastern Germany and Berlin. 

 

In the diabolical weighing of WWII atrocities, how does this compare with the murder, abuse, forced starvation and outright extermination suffered by the populations overrun by Barbarossa? How could such comparisons ever be made? Thank merciful goodness that we that are young shall never see so much nor live so long.)

 

For what it's worth I like "Enemy at the Gate" very much, even with the silly love story sub-plot. It's a cracking war movie, and there's a great shot near the start of the film as the Russian soldiers are de-training at the rail head, and see Stalingrad engulfed in flame across the river. Great stuff!

 

By the way, I remember a few years ago seeing a Russian movie about the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. It was, I think mid-late 90s, so not long after the end of the Soviet Union. I think the film was intended to be a sort of Russian "Platoon". Sadly, though it was naive and sensationalist. High marks for effort, though!

 

I'd love to see this new Stalingrad film, so long as all the bluescreen magic doesn't substitute "heart" for special effects. I just wonder how they'll get all those polygons into BoS... 

Edited December 18, 2013 by No601_Swallow

[FlatSpinMan]

Easy on the rape and atrocity discussion there, fellas. Seems to have been handled well, but it's not ever going to go well on an international sim forum.

[=38=Tatarenko]

In Beevor's book on Berlin, he mentions a discussion on a Germnan tram as the Russians approach and people are wondering what the Russians will do to them. A soldier from the eastern front says that "if they do to us a fraction of what we did to them, there won't be one stone left standing".

 

Yes the Russians behaved "badly" in Germany for a while (but the High Command who initially seemed to condone it soon put a stop to it) but seen in the context of what was done in Russia I'm afraid I have little sympathy, and I'm actually half German myself. German behaviour in Russia massively outweighed anything done to them.

 

Before anyone gets on any high horses, I speak both languages, have lived and worked in both countries and have grown up with all this as all my family were all in (various) armies. The Russians had nothing in comparison and the Germans wanted to steal what little they had and had estimated there were 10 million too many Russians for their needs.

 

--------------------------------

 

Still, at least we have learned from it all - apart from Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechenya, Afghanistan, Somalia, Syria, Vietnam, Cambodia, Zaire ....

[Marrond]

Pretty nice visual effects but the moment I saw "Columbia" at the beggining I knew that there will be nothing more besides those effects. By any means it sadly feels like another Pearl Harbor or Red Tails :/ I will certainly visit cinema once it gets released but not for the plot and characters (unless they surprise me in that regard which I highly doubt).

[Finkeren]

Those effects are grand, without being needlessly flashy. I kinda like the way it looks. 

 

However, historical recreation and impressive action sequences can only go so far in making a war movie. If the story or the characters aren't compelling, then it all just becomes a big bore.

 

Sometimes impressive effects or big reenactments can enforce great acting, writing and/or directing and make for a truly awesome war movie, examples include "Das Boot", "Saving Private Ryan", "Full Metal Jacket", "Der Untergang", "Apocalypse Now" etc. But if the rest fails no amount of effects will ever save the movie, movies like "Pearl Harbor", "Red Tails", "Enemy At The Gates" (sorry Fifi), "Flyboys" and "The Red Baron" are testament to that. This has been true always, and I think it is true even for some of the classic "war epics" which people often celebrate: "The Battle Of Britain", "The Longest Day" and "Gettysburg" are among the most boring and soulless movies, I have ever struggled through.

 

Some of the best war flicks are actually the ones that take a "less is more" approach and focus on smaller stories or skimp on the settings or action sequences. Check out "Go And See", "Joyeux Noël", "Regeneration" or even the animated "Grave Of The Fireflies".

Edited December 18, 2013 by Finkeren

[Sternjaeger]

I find this relentless quest for spectacular special FX and POVs quite annoying frankly. Any production house can do it now, and it frankly makes all these movies look the same: basic plot, lots of FX. 

War is dramatically spectacular as it is, I don't really see the need for this kind of excessive (and unrealistic) scenes.. 

[Finkeren]

I agree Sternjaeger, but you really can't claim that this is something new. All throughout cinema history we have big, expensive, flashy and dumb war movies without a shred of story to tell and which don't even give us any reason to care about its characters.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Finkeren

[=38=Tatarenko]

Well I love it that you guys are speculating based on a movie you haven't seen purely because it has SFX.

 

I have seen it and enjoyed it and would place it 2nd (behind Gravity) of the four films I saw while in Russia. There is plenty of story and character (and the German isn't painted as badly as you think ...). I do recommend setting aside baseless prejudice and actually watching it.

 

Having said that, seeing it in Stalingrad itself added to the atmosphere in the cinema

[Finkeren]

Definately not judging the movie in question. And I will certainly give it a chance. I was outlining some basic points about effects and realistic recreations not being the end-all-be-all of war cinema.

[FlatSpinMan]

When the FX or camera work are done so well though, it really helps impress on the audience how horrendous it must have been. Think about the first time you saw the opening of Private Ryan. They didnt use lots of CG but the cinematography really added to the feeling of dread and despair. I see these kinds of effects in the same light.

Anyway, extremely impressive. Musty check out the movie.

I'm currently reading through Guy Sajer's excellent "Forgotten Stoldier", about life in the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front and it is just bone-chilling.

[Finkeren]

Does anyone know, if this movie is coming out on Netflix or similar streaming service?

[Georgio]

Regarding the final fall of Berlin, my wife's Grandfather accompanied the Russians on the assault into Berlin. He was English but attached to the Russians as an observer and to stop any potential 'blue on blue' incidents.

He spoke fluent German & Russian so was ideally placed to see what went on during the final phase.

After the Reichstag was taken an order went out that the Russians were allowed three days in Berlin to do what they wanted then they had to pull back and let the other Allies in to set up the various sectors.

Apparently those three days were indescribable as the Russians vented their fury on the Germans. Apparently women hid, cut their hair as short as possible and smeared themselves with mud and excrement to try and protect from rape.

I have seen the photographs he took from this time and they make chilling viewing with the city totally empty of people for some reason but completely devestated.

If anyone is interested I'm sure I can scan and upload a few.

[MarcoRossolini]

Georgio I'm a sucker for the period, though I imagine some of the pics mightn't be suitable for an international forum, if they're fine then chuck em up but if not PM me since I'd be very interested in a look.

 

Indeed, irrc 25% of Byelorussia's population didn't survive the war. But I've read somewhere that the Soviets caused the greater number of deaths amongst their civilians than the Germans did. Can't remember where I got it from though... I'll have to find it... The chap citing it said that this figure had been tallied by a Russian whose work on Russia's casualties in the war was regarded as the most accurate.

 

It's worth remembering that if anything: "this is a bad guy vs bad guy story". 

 

A good film which is very much worth a watch is "Brestskaya Krepost". That one has some excellent combat scenes in it and focuses on a small set of events over a short period so the story is pretty good as well. Sadly they still can't get away from portraying Germans as hulking animal brutes, something all too common in Russian films of the war. The one time I have seen them not portrayed like that is curiously in the film series "liberation" (the Soviet equivalent of the Longest day) during the scene where the Berlin metro is flooded.

 

The problem with war films is that they can either go for the Longest Day approach and make it almost like a documentary/mockumentary (not saying Longest day is though) or make it more personal and thus devalue the fact that there is a war on.

 

I've read that Gary Sajer's account is slightly free with the facts, though I can't say not having read it myself. However I've read Boris Gorbachevsky's account from the opposing side which is in fact an excellent account. Also:http://english.iremember.ru/  There are some amazing accounts on this site. Definitely worth a read.