Stuka questions?

[Night0wl]

Hi all my favourite plane is the stuka dont ask me why i just really love it..

 

But i have some questions especially regarding online:

 

1: why should i take the small bomb load like the 1x 250 4x 70? One thing i can think of is it will bring me to an higher alt faster and need less fuel?

 

2: is it worth dropping all bombs at once ? For example 2x 250 + 1x 500? Isnt 1x 1000kg gonna make ivans day just as bad or even worse?

 

3: is the stuka worth flying online or is it obsolete? Im pretty good with the cannons i can kill 3 t34 or 2-3 kv1 in one run.. ive heard people say the bf110 g2 is much better at it ive tried it but dont really like it..

[PatrickAWlson]

I would think that bomb load would be about availability and fuel consumption.  Lots of small bombs vs. a smaller number of large ones would be target dependent.  I like the former for soft targets, the latter for hard ones.  

 

I would imagine that a Stuka always dropped all bombs at once, otherwise it would  be obliged to climb back to altitude and repeat.  Willing to be corrected if anybody has other information.

 

The stuka is always going to tough to survive in without good air cover, which is why the Germans switched to the 190.

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

I like the Stuka too.

 

Lone wolfing in a Stuka is very questionable on a multiplayer server. The Stuka is an iconic WWII dive bomber but it is very slow and vulnerable in multiplay. As Patrick asserted, it is going to be tough surviving any bombing mission online without some good fighter cover or as part of a large stuka flight.

 

I think the bomb load should be tied to the type of target expected and your preference. Normally, drop your bombload and get the heck out of the area quickly. (as quickly as a stuka can anyway)

 

But I have to say... it is VERY gratifying to simply survive a mission and get back to base and even more gratifying to actually shoot down an enemy fighter with a stuka. (don't expect that very often though)

 

You might be interested in the Stuka Campaign found below.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31233-sirens-death-iistg-2-over-stalin

Edited September 14, 2017 by Thad

[Night0wl]

Thanks for the replies, will try that campaign soon..

 

Would be nice to have night missions also with one lead plane low alt dropping flares and some stukas doing dive bombing on the lit area

 

Ive tried online a couple of times with the cannons He rounds works good for soft targets and staying low works pretty well for not getting spotted

Edited September 14, 2017 by jann3man

[curiousGamblerr]

Stukas are definitely best in a group online. Bomb load is definitely target dependent as others have mentioned, and the reason for taking less bomb weight is mostly to get to altitude faster and be more maneuverable if attacked en route (in most cases you'd want to ditch your bombs and run home though). Also, I believe the 70kg bombs are specifically anti-armor, but require a direct hit which is a bit tough. Finally, note that the largest bomb available to the Stuka (1800? 1000? I forget) will put it over it's max take off weight with significant fuel loads, or so I've read on the forums here.

 

And to Pat, in Mahlke's book he describes attacking tanks with multiple passes on the Eastern front, releasing bombs one at a time, but for the most part it seems they went for a single dive, releasing all their bombs (and I got the impression they tended to just carry one big one in these cases but don't remember if he got specific). Great book if you've never read it, Memoirs of a Stuka Pilot.

Edited September 14, 2017 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[PatrickAWlson]

Thanks for the replies, will try that campaign soon..

 

Would be nice to have night missions also with one lead plane low alt dropping flares and some stukas doing dive bombing on the lit area

 

Ive tried online a couple of times with the cannons He rounds works good for soft targets and staying low works pretty well for not getting spotted

 

Never say never, but I'm pretty sure that nighttime dive bombing simply was not done.  Can't imagine diving 85 degrees in the dark.  The stuka was more of a mobile artillery piece than a strategic bomber.  It was mostly meant to hit mobile or smaller targets with accuracy.  Larger fixed targets were better left to larger level bombers.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, a D-5 would be great Addition to the Game. Slightly more Wing Area and 2xMG151/20s with a combined 1000 rounds would make it a very good attacker. 

 

Superior to the 110 in these Points

• Bombload with SC1800, And sometimes having 3 large Bombs instead of only 2, even if they are 500s, is beneficial. 
• General Air and Ground Handling, especially for Novices, Low Speed is a benefit here
• Defensive Firepower, better Field of Fire, better Burstmass
• Both Gunpod Options are awesome. 
• Sirens
• Low Manouvering Speed does give you good Scissoring Abilities, better than 110. It also has very small Turn Radius. 

 

In General it's something you do for fun, and it is far from useless. 4 Stukas have the same Effect on a Target as 4 Bf110s. With a D-5 it would be even better. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[Night0wl]

Never say never, but I'm pretty sure that nighttime dive bombing simply was not done. Can't imagine diving 85 degrees in the dark. The stuka was more of a mobile artillery piece than a strategic bomber. It was mostly meant to hit mobile or smaller targets with accuracy. Larger fixed targets were better left to larger level bombers.

As the Stuka became increasingly vulnerable to Allied fighters in daylight operations, the Luftwaffe created special Nachtschlachtgruppen (NSGr) or “Night Attack Groups”. After the Normandy landings, three NSGr operated in Western Europe. The aircraft, designated D-7 and D-8, were outfitted with eliminators to mask their exhausts, ultraviolet lighting behind the instrument panel and special night reflector sights or nachtrevi. The planes’ nocturnal tactics involved a lead plane dropping flares to illuminate a target while other Stukas swooped in for the attack.

[csThor]

But not as a dive attack. The Nachtschlacht role was simply about using aircraft considered obsolete and squeezing a bit more juice from them. But tactics were simple: low and slow, shallow gliding attacks. Nobody sane would try a conventional dive bomb attack profile in the dark. IIRC those Stukas also had no more dive breaks as they were simply superfluous.

 

As for your question on bomb loads:

 

The Luftwaffe considered anything from 1000kg upwards as special ordnance, to be used only on direct order by a higher HQ. These were usually kept in rear storage facilities under the supervision of the Luftflotte and were not shipped to units unless specifically requested or on order by the Luftflotte or the Fliegerkorps.

[NETSCAPE]

Hi all my favourite plane is the stuka dont ask me why i just really love it..

 

But i have some questions especially regarding online:

 

1: why should i take the small bomb load like the 1x 250 4x 70? One thing i can think of is it will bring me to an higher alt faster and need less fuel?

 

2: is it worth dropping all bombs at once ? For example 2x 250 + 1x 500? Isnt 1x 1000kg gonna make ivans day just as bad or even worse?

 

3: is the stuka worth flying online or is it obsolete? Im pretty good with the cannons i can kill 3 t34 or 2-3 kv1 in one run.. ive heard people say the bf110 g2 is much better at it ive tried it but dont really like it..

 

1/2: Yes small bomb loads will increase speed and climb rate. 1 x SC250 and 4 x SC70's was the most typical load out for the Ju 87 D-3. In the game we don't have any SD bombs, but nonetheless if you plan on attacking enemy armor with bombs I'd recommend a SC500. You can obtain a tank kill with a single SC250 but you must be very accurate. Be sure to adjust bomb delay when dealing with tanks and ships specifically. Take the bomb load that seems most logical if you're playing multiplayer. For example if you're bombing a factory or rail station, take that SC1000, or SC500 + 2 x SC250s, climb to 3500-4500m and dive bomb. If you're engaging targets that you know will be spread out like vehicles or artillery, take a smaller load like the SC250 or even SC500 with the 4 x SC70s. This way you can hit multiple targets in multiple attacks utilizing a slant attack of 30-40 degrees. 

 

3: My problem with flying the Stuka online isn't enemy fighters. It's the AI settings of the AA guns. On normal they feel OP/too accurate. In my missions I use low as default and normal depending on the AA gun type. If a map maker puts the AA on high it's just absurdly accurate (I played a WOL mission where the FIRST AAA round fired at me blew my He 111 wing off... I was at 4k... yeah I quit that match quickly). I typically only fly ground attack and bombers. I always try to ask for escort on multiplayer. It works sometimes. But in the Stuka specifically, unless you can get a handful of other Stuka guys to fly in formation (VERY rare) or get fighter escort... yeah, you're pretty much toast. 

 

I really like the Stuka. It was my first love with this game. It is such an iconic aircraft and played an important role in many battles. My campaign might seem hardcore for the average player but at least give it a go and skip to one of the high altitude dive bombing missions. Because you won't ever get to see 12-24 stukas dive bombing at once in multiplayer. 

[Night0wl]

Will try the campaign, i think online going for cannons and attack trains/ armor works quite well because of the low alt you are less likely to be spotted i also found the AA on Wol extremely accurate so i avoided AA

[Yogiflight]

Yes small bomb loads will increase speed and climb rate. 1 x SC250 and 4 x SC70's was the most typical load out for the Ju 87 D-3. In the game we don't have any SD bombs

In fact, the 70s, we have in game, are SD70 bombs, the only german bombs we have that are not SC.

BTW, SD (D= Dickwandig/thick hull) bombs are no armor piercing bombs, but shrapnell bombs, for soft targets.

PC (P= Panzerbrechend/armor piercing) are armor piercing bombs on german side.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Yogiflight

[curiousGamblerr]

In fact, the 70s, we have in game, are SD70 bombs, the only german bombs we have that are not SC.

BTW, SD (D= Dickwandig/thick hull) bombs are no armor piercing bombs, but shrapnell bombs, for soft targets.

PC (P= Panzerbrechend/armor piercing) are armor piercing bombs on german side.

Well shoot, I've been doing it all wrong haha

[NETSCAPE]

Dang I must have mixed it up in my head!

[Yogiflight]

Well, it is much easier, when you are native german speaking. I have quite sometimes issues with english terms, that I don't really get the meaning.

[InProgress]

Same, ju87 is my favorite It's bad for multiplayer because 3 reasons:

1. It's hard to get people cover you (or any bombers) and ju87 alone is easy target.

2. Most of ground targets are factories or something where people fly he111 and get like 50-100 kills while ju87 will get only few. There are no targets like support infantry and drop bombs directly on building in middle of the city so you won't kill units around it with random 1000kg bomb like people drop now.

3.AAA guns with insane aimbot... you can get 1 shot at 2000-3000m, i often get shot down during dive which was the hardest moment for aaa gunners to shoot, they often focused on begining of dive or end of it. Yet in bos it does not matter with ACE aaa guns, you get shot all the time, does not matter what you do. I don't even know if they reload :|

 

For your questions, depends on target, most of the time i take 250 and 4x70. I never take 1000kg, it's just ridiculous, sometimes 500 and 2x250 is nice when you are going for multiple buildings.

The best targets for ju87 are bridges or ships, drop all bombs and run away. It depends on your play style, in game it's of course the best to take 1000kg and drop it in middle of factory and wow you get 50 kills. But i like to play normal way, score does not matter, 250 and 70 is nice choice for immersion and for being faster. These 70 dont do much tho, maybe it's fragmentation but you won't kill crew of any gun, you have to destroy gun with direct hit which makes 70 a bit useless.

[Yogiflight]

 

 

A bit OT, but from now on if I ever need to give someone a fake name it will be "Richard Wandig".

[Hoss]

Stuka's are a blast to fly........... our group has a few who love to fly them and the others cover us on our way out........... if we get shot down we jump in the back seat of who ever is still alive..........  we have actually got some kills that way............. we also fly the Ju-88 and both versions of the 110.............  some of the servers won't let us do Jabo in fighters so out of necessity we have grown to love the attack and bomber rides...   if you are a US flyer we fly Wednesday and Sundays............... 1900 hours PDT................. 

 

Cheers

 

Hoss

[PatrickAWlson]

Just tried my hand at dive bombing.  Lots of fun.  Straight down but with the dive brakes deployed and the throttle all the way back the plane is still amazingly stable.  Actually hit something after a few attempts .

[Wulf]

I would think that bomb load would be about availability and fuel consumption.  Lots of small bombs vs. a smaller number of large ones would be target dependent.  I like the former for soft targets, the latter for hard ones.  

 

I would imagine that a Stuka always dropped all bombs at once, otherwise it would  be obliged to climb back to altitude and repeat.  Willing to be corrected if anybody has other information.

 

The stuka is always going to tough to survive in without good air cover, which is why the Germans switched to the 190.

 

 

It wasn't just fighters that rendered the Ju 87 obsolete.  Nor was it anything peculiar about the aircraft itself, even though it was, generally speaking, a poor performer.  The real problem was 'dive bombing' itself, a doctrine that underpinned the development of the LW in the lead up to the war. 

 

In the late 1930s Germany was pretty much the only country to have developed effective mobile anti-aircraft systems capable of protecting its assault formations from air attack.  Consequently, when war broke out, as long as the LW was able to control the airspace above the battlefield, the absence of effective well integrated allied anti-aircraft defenses meant that Ju 87s losses remained acceptable, still alarmingly high but at that point not prohibitively so.  That changed as the war progressed and it was this change in the effectiveness of allied anti-aircraft systems that made the dive bombing of defended targets for all intents and purposes, suicidal.      

Edited September 20, 2017 by Wulf

[Night0wl]

I think this game could use some static hard to bust targets like a bunker or a dam that requires a direct hit in order to destroy it, i think this would make it more useful in mp.

[[TWB]80hd]

Real men never leave hangar without siren.

[NETSCAPE]

Real men never leave hangar without siren.

 

^^^ True. 

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Hi all my favourite plane is the stuka dont ask me why i just really love it..

 

But i have some questions especially regarding online:

 

1: why should i take the small bomb load like the 1x 250 4x 70? One thing i can think of is it will bring me to an higher alt faster and need less fuel?

 

2: is it worth dropping all bombs at once ? For example 2x 250 + 1x 500? Isnt 1x 1000kg gonna make ivans day just as bad or even worse?

 

3: is the stuka worth flying online or is it obsolete? Im pretty good with the cannons i can kill 3 t34 or 2-3 kv1 in one run.. ive heard people say the bf110 g2 is much better at it ive tried it but dont really like it..

 

The Stuka is also my favourite plane, and I fly it 90% of the time (MP servers, I almost never fly offline).

 

My opinion on this :

 

1 - 250+70s are indeed good for climb rate, but I see this load more like a truck convoy hunting load, so the usefulness of the climb rate isn't that big. I usually take this load on hot summer maps, especially when flying in groups. In winter the SC500+SD70 is better because of the improved performances in cold air. If you want to divebomb in a hurry and spend as little time as possible climbing, better go for the single SC500. 

 

2 - No, unless you are diving on a single super tough bunker and really need a lot of punch at the same point. But on average buildings/factories/depots, the SC250 won't do anything at all. 

So either you drop them one after the other during the dive, while slightly pulling on the stick so to spread them on a line, or you drop the 500 and come back to put your 250s on what is left standing up.

But for a single drop, the single SC1000 will be way more effective than 1000kg of smaller bombs on the same point.

 

3 - Yes she is worth flying her. Even alone. 

I may have a little bias in my opinion on this particular subject, but I feel much safer in this plane than in any other axis plane. (the 190 being my second choice).

She is surprisingly good a dogfighter, and with regular practice and proper tactics, you can get the upper hand on most russian aircrafts in a 1vs1 engagement against average pilots. (be careful against yaks and i16 though)

The rear gunner is quite accurate and if the MG81Z doesn't pack the punch of the Pe2's 12.7mm, it will still often do some noticeable damages on your enemies.

It is true than most other attack planes will get more results because of their bigger average bombload, but if you are not running after statistics, the Stuka is more versatile. 

 

Some advices :

- Only pick the BK37 if you have a solid escort, or if you are 90% sure that you won't see any reds where you are going. The plane is a dog with them and in any encounter with russian planes, you will end up burning somewhere on the ground. But for tanks, you can easily bag 4 T34s, and if you get the perfect aim, 6 of them. This said, in theory the Bf110 can get much more but the speed of the aircraft... Meh, I prefer a slower aim and take them out each in one pass. Less time spent over the target. If you expect to encounter russians, go for the 3xSC250, you can still bag 3 tanks, and fight your way out.

- Never hesitate to drop all your bombs if you are engaged by a fighter. Better to go back to the base with an air victory and a few holes than die for nothing because you hoped to drop your bombs on the objective before getting shot down.

- Flying low isn't always the best solution. A significant number of reds like to patrol at tree top level for better contact spotting, and you also risk to encounter IL2s, 37mm Laggs and other bad surprises. 

Sometimes cruising high will avoid you some bad encounters, and german fighters are usually more encline to protect high flying aircrafts. And in case you get engaged, this leaves you with more options than hoping that Gunter get a lucky shot through the windshield. 

- Use the AI rear gunner as a radar. Set it at engage at maximum range and once he calls for an ennemy, look behind you to where his gun is pointing. This helps spotting a lot, and will save your life very often when you get bounced by a fighter. When I fly alone or unescorted, I never, ever let anybody replacing Gunter on the backseat. 

- Practice your deflection with the 7.92mm against AI bots in quick mission (IL2 are good for the task), this will get usefull sooner or later.

- Practice your divebombing skills and learn to reach a decent accuracy by dropping in the 2000-1500m region. If the AAA is vigorous on your target, releasing lower will surely get you killed. Also don't pull upwards from your dive but keep the plane in a shallow dive instead to keep your speed up and get out of reach a soon as possible. And never fly in a straight line for more than 2s, that what it takes for the AI to adjust it's aim to your flypath.

 

If you like her, she is worth sticking, and you can have you decent success with her (and a lot of fun !) :

http://72ag-ded.ru/fr/pilot/1254/F/JG300_Gruber/?tour=11

http://coconutside.eu:81/fr/pilot/187/F/JG300_Gruber/?tour=2

 

Check the videos from MeoW.Scharfi also :

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31274-ju87-ace-flightguncam/

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

I have used the MG Pods on TAW for the first time Online and found them to be a useful Dogfight and Anti-AA and Truck Solution at very little Cost in manouverability. 

 

I have trouble believing that the MG Gunpods could not be combined with a Centerline Bomb though. Is there a Manual that prohibits use of Centerline Bombs in Combination with MG Pods?

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, some searching reveals this: 

 

[Night0wl]

Well, some searching reveals this:

 

Wish we c9uld have this setup, ive tried those pods against ai fighters a couple of times with good results

[F/JG300_Gruber]

I don't think these are WB81 gunpods Klaus-Mann, they look rather small and don't protrude as far as they should fore aft of the bomb mount of the wing.

Also there is no visible center line on the body of the pod itrself :

 

 

I think what we see on your picture is an AB250 cluster bomb, or something in that flavor.

Edited September 20, 2017 by F/JG300_Gruber

[[TWB]80hd]

I don't think these are WB81 gunpods Klaus-Mann, they look rather small and don't protrude as far as they should fore aft of the bomb mount of the wing.

Also there is no visible center line on the body of the pod itrself :

 

 

I think what we see on your picture is an AB250 cluster bomb, or something in that flavor.

 

According to this: https://ww2-weapons.com/stuka/

 

That pic (last on the page) displays AB250s.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The Picture is a D-5 and the Wings are fitted with WB81As which have the 6 Guns 15° Downwards. But the WB81A and B are virtually the same thing except for the Angle the Guns are Pointed. 

And ABs didn't have smooth Fins, they were short and stubby, as were their Noses. These are SC250s or 500s

 

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[Night0wl]

The Picture is a D-5 and the Wings are fitted with WB81As which have the 6 Guns 15° Downwards. But the WB81A and B are virtually the same thing except for the Angle the Guns are Pointed.

And ABs didn't have smooth Fins, they were short and stubby, as were their Noses. These are SC250s or 500s

 

 

Great find! Really wish we can get the d5 added! Those 20mm cannons eould make a big change

[F/JG300_Gruber]

These are not WB81 containers, too small and the overall aspect isn't right either. 

If you look closely on the front one, there are fins on that container.

 

Well, some searching reveals this: 

 

 

And just look how big they are :

 

 

That might well be AB70 container then, it is more elongated than it's 250 counterpart, and have very small fins. the body is still divided in half. 

There were also variants of this container loaded with flares like on this picture :

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by F/JG300_Gruber

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Well, but in any Case, is your Claim that WB81X Fitment meant that no Centerline Bomb could be carried?

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Well, but in any Case, is your Claim that WB81X Fitment meant that no Centerline Bomb could be carried?

 

Not at all. 

My point was that unfortunatly your picture is not the proof you are looking for.

 

I'm also curious to know if a centerline bomb was carried along with the gunpods on some occasions. And if it was, then it should be implemented in the sim.

To me also, it looks technically possible. The only thing I can think of that may prevent using both on the same aircraft would be wiring problems between the pods, the bomb selector and the triggers in the plane, that would require ground crews to alter electrical connection each time they had to switch between that configuration and the regular all bombs one. But I don't know much about this technical aspect of the plane. And if it is not the case, I think that a bomb along with the pods would improve strike capacity so no reason not to do it. 

 

Maybe the operational manual contains some informations about these things ?

Edited September 21, 2017 by F/JG300_Gruber

[Night0wl]

Not at all.

My point was that unfortunatly your picture is not the proof you are looking for.

 

I'm also curious to know if a centerline bomb was carried along with the gunpods on some occasions. And if it was, then it should be implemented in the sim.

To me also, it looks technically possible. The only thing I can think of that may prevent using both on the same aircraft would be wiring problems between the pods, the bomb selector and the triggers in the plane, that would require ground crews to alter electrical connection each time they had to switch between that configuration and the regular all bombs one. But I don't know much about this technical aspect of the plane. And if it is not the case, I think that a bomb along with the pods would improve strike capacity so no reason not to do it.

 

Maybe the operational manual contains some informations about these things ?

Im really hoping they actually did have this option.. stuka could use it but i also think historical accuracy is more important so if it wasnt possible then

alas too bad..

 

Stuka d5 would already be a huge upgrade because those 20mm cannons would improve strike capability combined with bombs.

 

So i hope the devs will make a d5 version

[F/JG300_Gruber]

Me too, this one is n°1 on my most wanted planes list.

[Yogiflight]

 

 

Stuka d5 would already be a huge upgrade because those 20mm cannons would improve strike capability

TBH I, quite sometimes, am in serious doubts about this. I am flying currently NETSCAPE's Stuka campaign, and when I see how easy it is to destroy trucks and artillery guns, and that i managed to shoot down even an IL2 with three short bursts of my MG17s, plus a short burst of my gunner with his MG81Z, then it looks to me, that the rifle caliber MGs are very destructable here in game.

[StG77_Kondor]

The Ju-87 stuka is without a doubt the best plane. Take off the wheel covers for an extra +30 cool points and you got yourself a real bombshell. 

 

TBH I, quite sometimes, am in serious doubts about this. I am flying currently NETSCAPE's Stuka campaign, and when I see how easy it is to destroy trucks and artillery guns, and that i managed to shoot down even an IL2 with three short bursts of my MG17s, plus a short burst of my gunner with his MG81Z, then it looks to me, that the rifle caliber MGs are very destructable here in game.

The firing rate of the MG17  ~1,200 rpm means that any truck even with a 2-3 second burst is 40-60 rounds of 8mm if all on target. Would it be nice if we had really detailed DM on individual trucks? Absolutely. Hits on the 'cargo' rear being much less effective than shooting at the engine, etc. 

But back on topic. Yes. We are in desperate need of a D-5. If we were to get one it would help create a realistic StG > SG transition timeline. From the D-3 to the D-5 to the Hs-129 (in some SG staffels) Then to the A-5. If I can be allowed to be greedy, I would love a D5 and a 190F.

[F/JG300_Gruber]

TBH I, quite sometimes, am in serious doubts about this. I am flying currently NETSCAPE's Stuka campaign, and when I see how easy it is to destroy trucks and artillery guns, and that i managed to shoot down even an IL2 with three short bursts of my MG17s, plus a short burst of my gunner with his MG81Z, then it looks to me, that the rifle caliber MGs are very destructable here in game.

 

Sometimes you will get an IL2 down fairly quickly but more often you will have to spray 400+ cartridges to get any fighter sized plane down. 

I'm not speaking much about the AI because they tend to turn at a very predictable rate, making it easy for a high accuracy shots on a lengthy bursts. Against players, it is usually well different.

 

20mm would improve greatly the firepower for snapshots, and help shortening any air to air engagement.

As for straffing, one can get one or two trucks in a single pass with the 7.92, but could double the figures with heavier firepower. Again, less time spent on the target.

And the slighlty better wing loading would make it an even better dogfighter than it is now