BOS/BOM/BOK......Mission building very difficult?

[PatrickAWlson]

Significant learning curve but very usable.  Get to know your MCUs.  Understand how to start and link chains of events.  And everything wants a timer ... everything

 

Start slow.  Make one aircraft start in the air and fly to one waypoint.  For that you need a plane, a MissionBegin, a Timer, and a waypoint.  If you can do that then you are on your way.

[CanadaOne]

Significant learning curve but very usable.  Get to know your MCUs.  Understand how to start and link chains of events.  And everything wants a timer ... everything

 

Start slow.  Make one aircraft start in the air and fly to one waypoint.  For that you need a plane, a MissionBegin, a Timer, and a waypoint.  If you can do that then you are on your way.

 

There's no question that forum members like yourself and Gambit are a great help to those of us who have (a lot of) difficulty with the included developer's tool, and it is appreciated. The problem, one of the problems anyway, is that the DT is simply no fun. I can put a plane in the air and park some AAA here and there, but by the time I've done this, and then gone through the obligatory on-off-on-off-on-off-on-off between game and DT to see If the "mission" works and maybe make some small adjustments, I hit an "Ahhh **** it!" moment when I realize I'm having absolutely no fun whatsoever. And then it's back to the anemic QMB.

 

This is the best flightsim on the market, but as far as player design input goes, not so much. And that's a shame.

[sniperton]

Shame or not, from a very practical point of view it hampers the production of new content for the game. Good games are made great games by a variety of individuals constantly creating and/or improving content. This is what kept alive the old title (1946) up to now.

Dunno how the situation could be changed, though. The base concept of the ME doesn't allow it to be easily turned into "fun",* and Jason said that redoing it from scratch is out of question (what I fully understand). I'm sorry to say, but this important aspect of the game seems FUBAR for years. Our only hope are the guys like Pat and the other members of the guild.

 

* Perhaps it could be a solution if groups could be accessed and customized via a script language (working in the background), and a separate GUI (something like the QMB) were created to modify data and to redraw waypoints (showing in the foreground).

[CanadaOne]

Shame or not, from a very practical point of view it hampers the production of new content for the game. Good games are made great games by a variety of individuals constantly creating and/or improving content. This is what kept alive the old title (1946) up to now.

 

Amen.

 

Granted, I'm just a worker bee and not a programmer, but the idea of having a combat flightsim without a "classic" FMB that is accessible and fun for the average player is like building a car without a radio or comfortable seats. Yeah, it'll get you there, and your ass will hurt while you sing to yourself for three-hours... but it will get you there.

 

Well, it's a gross rainy icy day here, maybe I'll make a few espressos and give the DT a slog and see if I can put a boat on the water without having a nervous breakdown.

 

And I'm happily, delightfully, enthusiastically willing to pay for a better QMB.

[sniperton]

I take your espressos, but my point was it won't change for a while, because it can't. Much more work than a P-51, and sells worse. If one time (maybe never) BoX becomes moddable, it can be brought up again, but till then it's a waste of time to bemoan it again and again. It makes more sense to put pressure on Pat to implement a supply system and tracking losses (as good old DCG did and still does).   

[CanadaOne]

I'll settle for a QMB with some meat on its bones.

[Gambit21]

...but mostly you'll settle for editor we have now.

Stop typing and learn it!

 

Too much gum flapping, not enough MCU placing.

[CanadaOne]

 

 

 

Must... learn... MCU... placing.............    or... else...

[Gambit21]

The ironic thing though is that it's fairly linear - unlike your illustration there.

[CanadaOne]

The ironic thing though is that it's fairly linear - unlike your illustration there.

 

I cut down trees for a living. Now I may not be a complete idiot, but to brains like mine, the DT in BOX looks a helluva lot like that picture.

[TP_Silk]

Frankly that comment is like saying that Skoda looks like a Ferrari. We get that you don't like the ME, but you're not doing yourself or you cause any favours by trying to pretend that you need a degree in computer science to understand it.

Quite frankly I am getting the functionality that you claim that you want by downloading a bunch of pre-built groups, importing the ones that meet my requirements and editing some very basic parameters. It is most definitely not beyond anyone to to do that. If you're actually interested in giving it a proper go instead of sitting and complaining about it I'll even zip my full series of groups for you and you can give it a go yourself.

[CanadaOne]

First off, I believe it is the consensus, and voiced by Jason himself in his Q&A the other day, that the FMB/DT in BOX represents a difficult challenge for the average player. It is unintuitive, convoluted, and inconvenient to use.

 

Second, I do appreciate your willingness to help.

 

If the QMB did not suffer from such a serious iron deficiency, the issues with the FMB/DT wouldn't matter, it could be left to you wizards and us simple folk void use the QMB.

[deleted@31403]

I started last year on the mission editor and gave up in frustration. Our Airgroup had no one to do missions. We needed a Kuban training mission so I stepped up two months ago. After diving in for two weeks I started to get it. What helped me a lot was some great members here and one of them was Silk. I took his and Syn missions and made some groups and dissected them and learn a lot. They are here to help and make this better for everyone those like Silk Gambit Syn and others. So just dive in with the manual start doing simple things and look at other missions in how they do it. I am hoping that when Bordenplatte comes out I will be able to give back.

 

Silk if you don't mind I will take that offer. I want to dissect some triggers and other groups. My interest is in Multiplayer and I see you do a lot in that area.

[KG200_Volker]

This is off topic but a chance here at ask, I allready asked Coconut but he doesn’t have the time for this right now.

 

I run a few missions on our server and I want to implement a system that spawns/despawn seems AI according to the number of players for each side. Coconut made a utility that checks server load to do this but it’s not so good in terms of balance.

 

The idea is to use maybe Coconuts idea but get the info from IL2Stats that check the server every few minutes and shows how many players on each side fly, or a check over server logs for the same thing.

 

E.g. : 5 OKL and 2 VVS, an AI group of fighters spawns for VVS, 3 more VVS join the server, the AI despawn.

 

My problem is that I lack programming knowlege, so if anyone here can help....

 

On topic, yes it is hard in the beginning but give a bit time and at least basic missions are doable, basically it is a programming tool but instead of text commands you use icons.

Edited November 27, 2017 by KG200_Volker

[coconut]

The ironic thing though is that it's fairly linear - unlike your illustration there.

The picture shows linear algebra. Talk about irony!

[TP_Silk]

@ 71st_AH_TwoLate - groups zipped and sent in a PM. Any questions feel free to PM me back. The groups are all fairly simple but can be used to achieve excellent results (IMHO of course).

[CanadaOne]

The picture shows linear algebra. Talk about irony!

 

Ha! I knew it. You're one of them wizards that understands that stuff.

 

Oh for meaty QMB for us simple folk...  

[theOden]

It does sound a little odd calling it a programmers tool to me working as a programmer by profession.

If we could access code and write the whole mission in text-editors like I do in Dover and ArmA that would be great (C# and sqf scripting engine).

 

This tool expects the user to have more application knowledge regarding all these, to me, not so intuitive blocks one has to put/spam the mission with.

Not really programming nor anywhere close to that.

 

But I understand it is what it is, no need to make any more fuzz about it.

[sniperton]

It does sound a little odd calling it a programmers tool to me working as a programmer by profession.

If we could access code and write the whole mission in text-editors like I do in Dover and ArmA that would be great (C# and sqf scripting engine).

My thoughts exactly (cf. #83). The ME is like a programmer's GUI with an object window, but without a code editor window. What programmer's tool is which doesn't allow you to do proper programming? It's more like a CAD application where you design complex solid objects by attaching small pieces to each other in a strict order and with highly limited possibilities of parametrization.

Edited November 27, 2017 by sniperton

[theOden]

I'm all with you sniperton, so true.

Also as you previously stated this most surely hamper the creation of small missions and I'm a bit worried what impact this will have with the upcoming coop mode.

 

Not sure if the new mode will need mission creators but those guy are the engine of all small coop flying casual groups flying out there (not part of the usual MP crowd) but the amount of mission makers seem a bit low (most surely as many opinions on this as there are customers here).

 

This sim starts to look very nice and the efforts from the devs are nothing short of impressive (I am one of the initial biggest "haters" and only carry one gold bar) and it would be a shame if it didn't take off with the next update (no pun intended, almost).

[Thad]

There's no question that forum members like yourself and Gambit are a great help to those of us who have (a lot of) difficulty with the included developer's tool, and it is appreciated. The problem, one of the problems anyway, is that the DT is simply no fun. I can put a plane in the air and park some AAA here and there, but by the time I've done this, and then gone through the obligatory on-off-on-off-on-off-on-off between game and DT to see If the "mission" works and maybe make some small adjustments, I hit an "Ahhh **** it!" moment when I realize I'm having absolutely no fun whatsoever. And then it's back to the anemic QMB.

 

This is the best flightsim on the market, but as far as player design input goes, not so much. And that's a shame.

Salutations,

 

You indicated 'realizing that you were not having any fun mission building'. Using the ME was never meant to be a fun experience. It is a developers mission building tool that has been shared with us. Building anything worthwhile is (in the end) work.

[KG200_Volker]

theOden! What about my request for help? Is this thing that I ask too hard to program? (I don’t have a clue)

Edited November 27, 2017 by KG200_Volker

[TP_Silk]

Volker - my opinion is that the biggest thing that stands in the way of what you want is the logic and programming behind the scaling. Certainly it's not something I would ever want to get involved with. Good luck to you on finding an answer to that particular problem.

[KG200_Volker]

Indeed good luck to me but...

 

We allready have a parser for player numbers and side (IL2Stats)

 

We allready have a way to give commands to a mission timer (Coconuts work) OR by server_input command from console.

 

Eg: We parse every 4-5 minutes and if team A or B has more than 3 human pilots then we despawn their AIs.

 

I didn’t have in mind to balance sides, just to have some AIs until there are some players in the server.

Edited November 27, 2017 by KG200_Volker

[Habu]

For the delete of the Ai, it's simple, but if you want that Ai spawn when player quit the game, it could be a problem for the ressource.

 

For the delete of AI, you have to do like this.

 

Complex trigger --- Counter set on 3 (number of player plane you want) --- Add target --->Timer --- Add target ---> Delete--Add Object ---> Ai plane

 

1- Put a complex triger in all the spawn area on one side. If you have 2 blue airfield, you have to use 2 complex triger.

2- In the complex trigger, select teh filter nationality with the nationality you want (German/russian). Then check the filter object spawn.

3- In the complex triger, Select the filter Object spawn and link it to a counter.

4- Link the counter to a timer.

5- Link the timer to a command delete

6- Link the command Delet to all tha AI plane you want delete. Be carrefull, it's a Add Object for that point.

 

In the complex trigger, uncheck on Cylinder, and check "Check plane".

 

 

Keep in mind that using a complex trigger, is like you're running a check of the trigger condition everytime. So it take ressource, and you have to test if it's ok with your server. To save ressource, you can turn off the complex trigger once it did the job, using a command deactivate. The command deactivate can be link by the timer ( if i use my exemple above). But you have to turn it on if you need it later.

[CanadaOne]

Salutations,

 

You indicated 'realizing that you were not having any fun mission building'. Using the ME was never meant to be a fun experience. It is a developers mission building tool that has been shared with us. Building anything worthwhile is (in the end) work.

 

And salutations to you, sir.

 

I can appreciate the logic of what you are saying. But this is a video game. Games are supposed to be fun. If I want not-fun, I can go to work or clean the house or get in trouble with the wife. There are, in fact, 1001 ways for me to have not-fun at almost any given moment. But if I am playing a video game... it should be fun. In many past sims, building missions was fun. Fun to build 'em, fun to fly 'em, and fun to get back in and modify them before flying them again and having more fun.

 

The DT/FMB in BOX is no fun at all. And that is not good. And if there is virtue in not having fun, may I ask what other parts of using this sim should not be fun? Picking the plane? The payload? What about flying the plane itself? If the entire game itself is made into one giant tedious PITA, does that imbue it with merit?

 

Fun, ma man. It should be fun!

[Gambit21]

Creating content for a video game is not the same as playing a video game.

I can make models, I can skin, I can make missions.

All three require me to know some very sophisticated software - it's all fun to me, but it's also work.

 

None are possible with simple tools if your doing any of them at a the highest level.

I find building missions rewarding, which is what allows me to put those hours in.

[TP_Silk]

Just got to say that I have an awful lot of fun making missions for the online squadron that I fly fly with. All that is stopping other folks from having that same fun is their own prejudices and preconceptions with regards to how hard it will be to do it.

 

My fun comes from creating something that people find challenging and/or memorable. It comes from my squadron mates enjoying the mission that I've crafted. It comes from creating something that people enjoy.....   to my mind that's no different from what you guys want to do..... except some of you want to put in more effort and thought than others and there's no shame in that. Just stop whinging that it can't be done because the only thing stopping you doing it is you individually.

There are a bunch of us here that monitor this thread that are more than willing to help folks out with the Mission Editor program. There have been manuals created and quick-start guides. Folks make their plug-and-play groups available at request. All that is missing is the willingness to even try.

[CanadaOne]

Creating content for a video game is not the same as playing a video game.

I can make models, I can skin, I can make missions.

All three require me to know some very sophisticated software - it's all fun to me, but it's also work.

 

None are possible with simple tools if your doing any of them at a the highest level.

I find building missions rewarding, which is what allows me to put those hours in.

 

I think you're a smarter guy than I am. I don't doubt that. And I'm fine with it.

 

But models and skins were always considered more a specialist thing than mission building. The point of an FMB is to allow Joe Blow to create content and keep the game interesting, and most of the time it was painless and kinda fun. The BOX DT/FMB has made mission building into a specialist pastime as well (and a PITA one given that the DT is out of the game). Granted, a lot of you smart guys can handle the DT and handle it well. And no doubt you are smart enough to get a lot out of it. But I'm guessing, and not without reason, that a good number of people who used to build a lot of missions in other sims, build few if any in this one. I went from building hundreds in other sims to building pretty much none in this one. I believe others, as some have stated, like myself, hit that "Ahhhh **** it!" moment of frustration and give up on content creation. And that really is a shame.

 

This cannot be taken as criticism of the people, like yourself, who are willing to help others through the process. You are the guys in white hats in this scenario. The problem is, notwithstanding your help, the inherent difficulty of the DT/FMB mixed in with the anemic QMB. The two taken together put a real damper on what the average flyer can accomplish and enjoy as far as content creation in BOX goes.

[Gambit21]

As I said before though - I was in your shoes a while back.

Coming from the old editor, I opened this one along with a short tutorial and said "no way - life is too short" and gave up on it for a few years.

 

To make an aircraft take off from scratch for instance is not complicated - and you only have to do it once technically.

Even then, you don't really have to do it once because you can just paste one of JimTM's groups and change the parameters.

 

At first you don't need to understand everything about the logic of the group's you're placing - that will come later.

For a while I was pasting and adjusting - now however I only infrequently reach for my groups folder because I can throw just about anything together just as quickly.

 

The point though is that I was building good missions before I reached that level.

...I'm no slouch at felling a fir tree either

[CanadaOne]

No question the deficiencies of the BOX DT are matched and outweighed by your patience and good nature.

 

As much as the DT is a Goldberg-esque PITA, it's you guys who inspire us simple folk to give it "just one more try" before we throw in the towel completely.   

 

 

 

...I'm no slouch at felling a fir tree either

 

Best be a Stihl and not a Husky or we'll have words.