The free-sliding canopy on the IL-2...

[[TWB]80hd]

Some time ago, a curious change was made to the IL-2. The canopy, which used to lock to the rear, like any other aircraft in the game, suddenly began to slide around freely, like a broken windshield wiper.

 

When a query was made into this subject, the response I received was that this was somehow historical.

 

My theory/suspicion, has always been that it was due simply to the large number of Axis-centric pilots that are routinely shot down by IL-2s because they don't have a very firm grasp on physics.  (These are the same pilots now getting slaughtered by P-40s).

 

But I digress... the point here is to prove, once and for all, that this change to a free-sliding cockpit is not only ahistorical, but the inability to OPEN the cockpit manually, once it has brokenly slid forward, is not just a grisly insult when you can't bail out, it is also not based in reality.

 

 

For information on this particular issue, I did some research to find out if perhaps there might be a real, working IL2 out there somewhere.

 

Lo and behold, THERE IS! 

 

Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum

Paine Field
3407 109th Street SW
Everett, WA 98204

 

The FHCAM boasts an impressive collection of aircraft, armor, and other military equipment, and one of the world's only operational IL2's!

 

History of their IL2:

 

http://www.flyingheritage.com/Explore/The-Collection/Russia/Ilyushin-II-2M3-Shturmovik.aspx

"The FHCAM’s plane was restored using parts from four wrecks discovered in northwestern regions of the former Soviet Union. Il-2 serial number 305401 makes up a large percentage of the aircraft.

The plane was constructed in Kuybyshev in mid-1943 and was assigned to the 828th Attack Aviation Regiment on the lower Karelian Front. On October 10, 1944, the plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire while attacking an airfield and crashed near the Titovka River.

The plane was discovered in a nameless lake by searchers scouting the area with a helicopter in 1991. When raised to the surface, the recovery crew found that the Il-2 still had its complement of rockets and bombs under its wings."

 

 

So, I emailed this group to ask them the following three questions. The answers in red are from the military aviation curator, Cory Graff (emphasis added by me). 

 

1.       Is the IL-2's canopy capable of locking open? I.e., if you wish to fly with the canopy open, will it lock in the rearward position, or will it slide forward in a dive?

Canopy locks open using the same mechanism (top center) as it does to lock it closed.  Yes, it can be locked in the rearward position.  Without freeing it (pilot manipulation the lock), it would stay locked back in a dive.

2. If the canopy has no locking mechanism to keep it open, and it slides forward (for example, in a dive), will it then lock in place on its own?

If it is not locked or comes unlocked and slides fwd then yes, with enough momentum/force it will self lock closed

3. If the canopy was closed and the aircraft was dead-stick in a dive, would a pilot be able to slide the canopy backward in order to bail out? (I understand the armored canopy is quite heavy).

Yes. No problem opening in flight and btw its not too heavy to slide either way, it works well

 

 

 

If we could please get the game's namesake IL2 back to operating like the real thing, that would really be appreciated!!

 

Signed,

An IL2 pilot who has to bail out a lot. 

 

 

EDIT: Link to Dev Assistance/Historical Information Thread: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31169-free-sliding-il-2-canopy/

Edited September 11, 2017 by [TWB]80hd

[Jade_Monkey]

Nice way of approaching the subject. Instead of complaining went out and emailed a real IL2 pilot proactively.

 

Kudos for that!!

[curiousGamblerr]

 

 

The plane was discovered in a nameless lake by searchers scouting the area with a helicopter in 1991. When raised to the surface, the recovery crew found that the Il-2 still had its complement of rockets and bombs under its wings."

 

[Finkeren]

Very nice work 80hd

 

Would be a nice feature to have, especially in the IL-2 which is the only plane I routinely fly with open canopy.

[HR_Tofolo]

+1000

 

Fantastic request  

[-SF-Disarray]

It is amazing what they find in those lakes in Russia. I heard about a 109 E-7 found in a similar fashion that seems to have flown over Europe, Africa and the Soviet Union before sinking in a lake after someone punched its ticket with a single 20 mm hit. It is in some museum in California now.

 

It would be nice to see the IL 2 put right with a locking canopy, if that is how it is supposed to be. I've never been tied up by the close and never opening again canopy but I could see how that could be a real pain.

[Willy__]

 

 

80hd' timestamp='1505145788' post='509497'] 3. If the canopy was closed and the aircraft was dead-stick in a dive, would a pilot be able to slide the canopy backward in order to bail out? (I understand the armored canopy is quite heavy). Yes. No problem opening in flight and btw its not too heavy to slide either way, it works well

 

 

I guess that depends on speed, like all other russian cannopies. If you are too fast you wont be able to open it. But then again, the IL2 wasnt know for its speed....

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Send the devs a PM

[curiousGamblerr]

Does anyone know if the locking mechanism differed between models? The Il-2 in question is from 1943 but a Frankenstein. I wonder if this sliding canopy was a real thing on earlier models and fixed in later series.

 

Aside, here's a fun clip of the canopy slide saving TWB Sketch from a 20mm round.

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveRoundDonutCurseLit

[[TWB]80hd]

Does anyone know if the locking mechanism differed between models? The Il-2 in question is from 1943 but a Frankenstein. I wonder if this sliding canopy was a real thing on earlier models and fixed in later series.

 

Aside, here's a fun clip of the canopy slide saving TWB Sketch from a 20mm round.

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/NaiveRoundDonutCurseLit

 

That was awesome! (the vid)

 

I hear, and agree with what you are saying, and I thought of that myself, but I do believe that unless there is a working model of an earlier IL-2 out there that has empirical evidence of the lack of a locking mechanism, it'd be really nice if we could go with the idea that it probably had one.

 

At the very least, it needs to be possible to slide it back and get out if your control rods are damaged, and their is clearing a forward locking latch on it, you can even see it in that video.

 

I think this was a problem back when you could lean your head way out of the cockpit at high speeds... that seems to have been taken care of now, because if you're flying an IL-2 fast enough to maneuver, you still can't see behind you nowadays even with the canopy open.

 

The view is nice, and being able to hear is nice too when you're low and slow, my only gripe with this whole setup is the fact that it's a tomb if you get hit with the canopy forward, and we know that wasn't the case.  We even have accounts of pilots locking their cockpits to the rear specifically because they didn't want to get trapped (though this was in regard to the LaGG and perhaps the Yak, as far as I remember). 

 

If you can use a screwdriver to remove a headrest, I would hope you could also jam that same screwdriver between the canopy and the back to prevent it from sliding.

[-SF-Disarray]

I don't know that a lack of evidence of a free sliding canopy is enough to go on though. Many little things like this are easy to overlook in the design process until someone points them out. I wouldn't be supersized to learn that the IL 2 canopy on the models of 41 and 42 didn't have a rear locking catch for no other reason that nobody thought it was needed. Not all of these aircraft designers were pilots and more still were likely not combat pilots, it simply may not have been thought of. More data is needed I think; of particular interest in this respect would be the data that drove the change in game. If it stayed locked to the rear in the past why doesn't it do so now? Did the devs find something? Is this a bug that no one has brought up until now? More data.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Disarray

[[TWB]80hd]

I don't know that a lack of evidence of a free sliding canopy is enough to go on though. Many little things like this are easy to overlook in the design process until someone points them out. I wouldn't be supersized to learn that the IL 2 canopy on the models of 41 and 42 didn't have a rear locking catch for no other reason that nobody thought it was needed. Not all of these aircraft designers were pilots and more still were likely not combat pilots, it simply may not have been thought of. More data is needed I think.

 

I agree that more data is needed to keep the sliding canopy in place.  Until that is proven, it needs to operate just like the rest of the aircraft.

[blitze]

Much easier in a german plane, just forget to close the canopy before take off and you glorious ooen air flying for the whole mission. 

 

I must admit, when flying the il2 which I do often, having the canopy open is nice for ground target identification.  The yoyo open close aspect is not fun though.  BTW can we have buildings rendered further out whilst we are fixing things ). The way they pop at current distance makes it hard to ascertain what to target in cities without having to dance with aa first and then repeat the process on the bombing pass.

[curiousGamblerr]

I agree that more data is needed to keep the sliding canopy in place.  Until that is proven, it needs to operate just like the rest of the aircraft.

 

Yeah I feel that and agree, if they don't have conflicting info. I'd imagine the devs had a reason to change it in the first place tho, curious to hear about that.

 

I think you need to PM them or share this info in the Developer Assistance subforum for that though. Maybe one of the mods can move this thread over there?

[[TWB]80hd]

Yeah I feel that and agree, if they don't have conflicting info. I'd imagine the devs had a reason to change it in the first place tho, curious to hear about that.

 

I think you need to PM them or share this info in the Developer Assistance subforum for that though. Maybe one of the mods can move this thread over there?

 

I PM'd Jason, but will do on the Dev Assistance forum!

[curiousGamblerr]

Cool. Also +1 on the great approach here, to echo JM.

[Lusekofte]

I am convinced let us have a way to lock the canopy in open position   No further need of proof , I trust a IL 2 vet

Edited September 11, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[[TWB]Pand]

I'm pretty pumped about this discovery... This should finally correct the random IL-2 canopy swing implementation that went into place many patches ago.

[56RAF_Roblex]

I don't know that a lack of evidence of a free sliding canopy is enough to go on though. Many little things like this are easy to overlook in the design process until someone points them out. I wouldn't be supersized to learn that the IL 2 canopy on the models of 41 and 42 didn't have a rear locking catch for no other reason that nobody thought it was needed. Not all of these aircraft designers were pilots and more still were likely not combat pilots, it simply may not have been thought of. More data is needed I think; of particular interest in this respect would be the data that drove the change in game. If it stayed locked to the rear in the past why doesn't it do so now? Did the devs find something? Is this a bug that no one has brought up until now? More data.

 

Well, the 43 model also has a free sliding canopy so it can't be that the developers deliberately left it off the earlier models.  I have not experienced it jamming forward yet but it sounds like it did not happen all the time with the BoS or BoM IL2 either.

[Max_Damage]

PM Han with this.

[[TWB]80hd]

PM Han with this.

 

I PM'd Han on Sep 12, he read on Sep 14, no response though.

 

I don't want to bug them, also would like to see this corrected.  If you're nose-down and get your rods busted, it's a death sentence and it's really annoying.

[Royal_Flight]

You'd think of all the things to fix, this would be an easy one.

As a fellow ground attacker I second this push to get the canopy sorted.

[Lensman]

My appreciation of the damage modelling was confirmed when I was flying a fw-190 and a bf-109 collided with me. The 109 lost a wing but the 190 kept flying except that the entire canopy was ripped off bar the windscreen. I lost everything else: the glass, the frame. The windscreen was left with just the bolt holes for the missing metalwork. Nice work devs.

[[TWB]80hd]

 

 

I guess that depends on speed, like all other russian cannopies. If you are too fast you wont be able to open it. But then again, the IL2 wasnt know for its speed....

 

 

You think the wind pushing in the same direction as your hand is going to hinder your ability to open the canopy?

[Lensman]

You think the wind pushing in the same direction as your hand is going to hinder your ability to open the canopy?

Wouldn't the windscreen remove most of that wind?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

You think the wind pushing in the same direction as your hand is going to hinder your ability to open the canopy?

Asking him about that I'm curious what you think

[Willy__]

 

 

80hd' timestamp='1507644542' post='519630'] You think the wind pushing in the same direction as your hand is going to hinder your ability to open the canopy?

 

 

Tell that to those russian pilots who couldnt open their cannopy and went to the ground with their crates. There's a reason why the germans added small explosives to eject the cannopy in some aircraft in case of bailing. 

[[TWB]80hd]

Asking him about that I'm curious what you think

 

I'm no aeronautical engineer, but once you unlatch the sliding canopy and start pulling it to the rear, I would have to imagine the airflow pushing in the same direction is, at the very least, not going to hinder your effort.

 

The guy who actually has and flies an IL-2 has already stated that the canopy is not difficult/too heavy to move.

 

All the accounts I have read about Russian canopies have said nothing about them being difficult to open due to airspeed, but simply that they were stuck, period... that they found guys on the ground that couldn't get them open.

[Willy__]

80hd' timestamp='1507671575' post='519738'] I'm no aeronautical engineer, but once you unlatch the sliding canopy and start pulling it to the rear, I would have to imagine the airflow pushing in the same direction is, at the very least, not going to hinder your effort.

 

Thats not how it works. Look, if there was some kind of latching mechanisc to lock the cannopy in place, then it should be in the game. You should ask more expert guys like JtD and Holtzauge if you wanna know more about it. I'm no aeronautical engineer either but iirc, the sliding cannopy get stuck when you are flying fast due to the pressure diference.

Edited October 10, 2017 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Locking canopies at high speeds is a well-documented problem across Soviet aircraft. Notable examples are 55 IAP removing hoods on all MiG-3s in 1941, and the numerous reminders to close the canopy on LaGG-3, La-5 and Yak-1 manuals since pilots were making a habit out of flying with it open.

[Venturi]

Then they ought to lock open just fine, just like locking closed.

[Brano]

With the MiG-3 mechanism you have to overcome a small ramp/bump when opening the canopy. Just watch the animation from outside. LaGG-3 in game is missing the lock completely. It is described in Technical description of early M-105P version. But I could not find a cross-reference with later M-105PF and early La-5. It's only mentioned in pilots instructions. As example in La-5 it is explicitly written to put the sliding canopy firmly on lock when approaching for landing. The truth is that locking mechanism was rather primitive,holding the canopy to front shield only by leather strip attached to the small bolt. I can imagine it would loosen/tear during extensive usage.

[[TWB]80hd]

Locking canopies at high speeds is a well-documented problem across Soviet aircraft. Notable examples are 55 IAP removing hoods on all MiG-3s in 1941, and the numerous reminders to close the canopy on LaGG-3, La-5 and Yak-1 manuals since pilots were making a habit out of flying with it open.

 

If it's so well-documented, it should be a simple thing to produce even one text referring to the IL-2 itself.

Thats not how it works. Look, if there was some kind of latching mechanisc to lock the cannopy in place, then it should be in the game. You should ask more expert guys like JtD and Holtzauge if you wanna know more about it. I'm no aeronautical engineer either but iirc, the sliding cannopy get stuck when you are flying fast due to the pressure diference.

 

The entire thread is dedicated to the IL-2, and specifically the canopy of the IL-2.  The speeds at which the canopy is locked forward are universal, in game; you must nose up before the canopy will open.  Also, the canopy WILL open at any speed, as long as you're nosed up.

 

That is how it works, in IL-2 BoX.