Single player AI improvements

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

As this glorious combat flight sim progresses can we expect to see marked improvements with either friendly or enemy AI, My experience is that when in combat whether it's quick missions or scripted missions you 

 

invertibility are going to be involved in a turning chase which results in you almost never seeing you strikes because of the engine cowling  [ i have to almost stand with my TrackIR to judge and see the results of my deflection ] 

 

I seem to remember in the old "Forgotten Battles" your opposition would sometimes break off and dive for the deck which would result in a weaving tail chase at low level   

 

And regards AI communication, we only have the options of " Attack nearest air or ground target, so is there a chance that this will improve ? will it be possible say as a flight leader you would be able to delegate 

 

specific targets too members of you flight, many of us have said that immersion is so important, well these points mentioned would i'm sure help the experience 

 

 

 

Cheers

[unreasonable]

As this glorious combat flight sim progresses can we expect to see marked improvements with either friendly or enemy AI, My experience is that when in combat whether it's quick missions or scripted missions you 

 

invertibility are going to be involved in a turning chase which results in you almost never seeing you strikes because of the engine cowling  [ i have to almost stand with my TrackIR to judge and see the results of my deflection ] 

 

I seem to remember in the old "Forgotten Battles" your opposition would sometimes break off and dive for the deck which would result in a weaving tail chase at low level   

 

 

 

I have recently been chasing a Lagg (ace) around in a Spitfire.  We merge, horizontal turn - both keeping speed up, when I get on his tail as I always do, he inverts and dives hard to the deck. I follow, he sometimes zooms as high as he can and then dives again, sometimes cuts throttle and starts scissoring - nearly getting me into an overshoot occasionally.  There is much more to the AI than just turning - at least at ace level.

 

Presumably if you are playing a campaign the AI will be set by the mission maker, so you will not always get this, but there is a lot more in the AI scripts than turning.   

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

Thanks for that, yes that makes sense, if i up the opponents skill i can expect him too try more flying maneuvers to gain an advantage. I shall test my skills against a more worthy opponent  

[HagarTheHorrible]

I thought they had become much improved in recent times, yes there is still lots of going around in circles, but no where near the repetitive circling near the ground of past times. I'm often surprised at the novelty and variety of tactics that the individual AI seam to have acquired.

 

Still disappointed in wannabe fighter jocks flying bombers though.

 

If there is an ahistorical problem it is the lack of surprise, shock factor and dogged persistence shown by damaged aircraft, especially by lower level AI.

[Ribbon]

I think devs mentioned that they are working on AI, to make them being able to dogfight in mountain area.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Had the chance to play 4.07 vanilla Il-2 again this week and to be fair it looks like nostalgia played a big part in how we remember it. Only went up against Bf-110s and Fw-190s but my impression was that it was on the same level as BoX's with some differences.

 

The AI were much less aggressive - having the enemy casually form up and fly away in level flight during a dogfight isn't exactly exciting. They also had a limited manoeuvre repertoire and gunnery was awful. The AI controlled the aircraft really well however, much more naturally than in BoX.

 

In BoX we have AI that seldom disengage and press attacks regardless of the odds (sometimes exciting and heroic, sometimes delving into stupidity), a differently limited repertoire (less pronounced at higher skill settings), very scientific approach to gunnery (good usually buy leading to crazy shots at Ace level) and finally thanks to the complex flight models sometimes AI flights shake all over the place, lawndart or spin into the ground.

 

In the last 1946 patches AI was refined and reached its final form there, and I think the same work here over time will sort things out.

[unreasonable]

To me it is good that the Ai sometimes spins out or misjudges it's dive - happened often enough in RL.  I do think they should be far more inclined to try to disengage as soon as they take any damage at all.  

 

I think the bombers flying like fighters is only a QMB issue since it only does a duel scenario - where it is silly and occasionally very funny - in campaigns I do not recall ever seeing it.

[Maurox]

One thing I miss and it would be great to have is a chance to attack the enemy undetected. I know it doesn't take much skill, but my fav feeling in this game is sneaking up to someone in MP and anihilate the plane from 50 meters

[Stlg13/Sgt_Schultz]

 

 

One thing I miss and it would be great to have is a chance to attack the enemy undetected. I know it doesn't take much skill, but my fav feeling in this game is sneaking up to someone in MP and anihilate the plane from 50 meters

 

 

It would be awesome if this was ever made possible. If it could be balanced it would add another dimension and set of tactics to fighting AI.

 

 

+1 about the AI commands, hopefully they are going to flesh them out a bit more at some point. Another thing that is really needed IMHO (that isn't implemented as far as I'm aware) is formation distance/spacing.

[Yogiflight]

 

 

I think the bombers flying like fighters is only a QMB issue since it only does a duel scenario - where it is silly and occasionally very funny - in campaigns I do not recall ever seeing it.

Nope, it happens everywhere in SP, exept in scripted missions, when the developer sets the waypoints to high priority. But in the stock campaign, as well as in PWCG the bombers and ground attack aircrafts always start turning like fighters, as soon as they get attacked by the player.

 

 

One thing I miss and it would be great to have is a chance to attack the enemy undetected. I know it doesn't take much skill, but my fav feeling in this game is sneaking up to someone in MP and anihilate the plane from 50 meters

In fact, it sometimes indeed happens to me, but it is very rare. I explain it for me, with the possibility, that the pilot, I want to attack, gets warned by his squadmate.

[unreasonable]

I do not think that is quite right. I am currently building a small stuka intercept mission.  If the WP are on high, the stukas carry straight on when attacked. But on Medium they are not trying to dogfight - they seem to be taking evasive action while maintaining their overall course which is not the same thing. Indeed in my last test one of them managed to avoid the AI interceptors and drop his bomb on the tank I was using as a player vehicle....    It is only in QMB that I have seen an He111 trying to dogfight in the vertical..... maybe that has now been cured.

 

I also have on occasion had an easy shot on an AI - IIRC the probability of an aircraft reacting to you is a function of it's AI level, so novices can sometimes be shot down without the usual jinking and sharp turns.

[Yogiflight]

What you describe about the Stuka, is what I experienced in Stuka missions in PWCG. What I was talking about, is when I attack in the stock campaign Pe2s or IL2s, they stop flying in formation and defend themselves in wild turns and don't think at all, to attack the ground target, what is, in fact, the reason, they are flying there. They always take their bombs back to their base. Even when I don't attack them, because I am busy with the escort, only one of the bombers/ ground attack aircrafts, the leader, I suppose, drops its bombs and the other ones take them back home.

I only experienced it, so far, in scripted missions, for example Juri's Platzschutzstaffel Pitomnik, that attacked Pe2s stay in formation and defend themselves with combined defensive fire, dive down to their target and after attacking the target, go back into formation during their climb back to their base. This is far more immersive, than the default behaviour in the campaign. And eight Pe2 in formation are no easy prey, as some might suggest, in fact I find it easier to attack one by one, when they turn around, as their gunners are not as deadly, as eight gunners in straight flying Pe2s in formation.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Yogiflight

[Willy__]

 

 

There is much more to the AI than just turning - at least at ace level.

 

 

I really think its tied down on how you fly. 

 

Depending of what you do, the AI will answer accordingly, but I noticed that if you do the most reasonable thing, thinking about survival rather than attacking at all cost the AI will mostly do the same manoevers, which most of the time results in it doing flat turns.

 

I still think the 1946 AI miles ahead of BoX AI; at least they dont have stupid unhuman accuracy all the time.

[dburne]

The main thing that gets me about the AI, is their uncanny and incredible gunnery accuracy from just about any angle.

And their ability to fly full speed and perform all maneuvers whilst still engaging me with their plane pouring out both white and black smoke. 

Mine does that and I lose engine power and typically it will go dead in just a few short minutes.

 

But I realize ai is just that ( Artificial ) and there are many limitations, and I am enjoying all the SP action very much.

[Willy__]

And their ability to fly full speed and perform all maneuvers whilst still engaging me with their plane pouring out both white and black smoke. 

 

That is kinda... relative. Its an area that the sim lacks a bit, it doenst matter if you hit the enemy oil compartment with a rifle bullet or a 20mm round, graphically the oil leak will look just the same, which means, sometimes the enemy has a very small hole, enabling him to fight a lot more if compared to a big hole. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[SCG_motoadve]

AI in here needs work, it has been improved , but still kind of lacking a bit.

I also want the element of surprise which was use a lot in real life on all fronts.

[smink1701]

I wish they could build in some random situations where you can sneak up on a bloke and blow him out of the sky.  Many if not most dogfights were not dogfights.  You surprised the dude and he never knew what hit him.

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

The AI at ace level is always easy to read when it's on the defensive. It will initiate a turn and then hold it until you gain enough closure for a deflection shot, at this point it rolls inverted and dives and then uses the speed to climb and again initiate a turn unless you're close enough for another shot in which case it will roll inverted and dive. Rinse and repeat.

 

If you don't get the kill at altitude and the AI manages to burn enough energy to bring the fight into the weeds you'll start to see some different behavior but until that time it's the same old: Turn Fight > Inverted > Dive > Climb > Turn Fight > Repeat

Edited September 12, 2017 by Y-29.Sulaco

[BazzaLB]

The main thing that gets me about the AI, is their uncanny and incredible gunnery accuracy from just about any angle.

 

This is, by far, the most irritating aspect about the AI for me. I hope it can be tuned somewhat. They seem deadly accurate at all skill levels.

 

I too still enjoy SP though. Its all I ever play. Wish there was more dedicated focus on AI but you can't have everything

[unreasonable]

The AI at ace level is always easy to read when it's on the defensive. It will initiate a turn and then hold it until you gain enough closure for a deflection shot, at this point it rolls inverted and dives and then uses the speed to climb and again initiate a turn unless you're close enough for another shot in which case it will roll inverted and dive. Rinse and repeat.

 

If you don't get the kill at altitude and the AI manages to burn enough energy to bring the fight into the weeds you'll start to see some different behavior but until that time it's the same old: Turn Fight > Inverted > Dive > Climb > Turn Fight > Repeat

 

To be fair, there are only so many things you can sensibly do if a bandit is well behind and lining up a shot, especially if he is in a plane that can out-turn yours.  It would be interesting to see Ace AI attempt the Hartmann -g dive (very occasionally) or deliberately enter a spin. 

[=SqSq=switch201]

To be fair, there are only so many things you can sensibly do if a bandit is well behind and lining up a shot, especially if he is in a plane that can out-turn yours.  It would be interesting to see Ace AI attempt the Hartmann -g dive (very occasionally) or deliberately enter a spin.

 

 

I think it would go a long way if the there was different AI for the different types of fighters. right now it seems that all of the fighters share the same AI, but the same tactics do not work for all planes. for example 109s and 190s should not attempt to turn fight, while that tactic is acceptable for yaks and spits. 

 

The AI right now behaves just as Sulaco describes. it's very bland and predictable in my opinion. The only time I ever get shot at is if I do a 1v2 with 2 fighters on ace difficulty, at least that way I give the other fighter a chance to get on my 6 while I am attempting to take out his mate.

Edited September 14, 2017 by =SqSq=switch201

[Albino]

I flew the train recon mission in Ten Days of Autumn recently and 2 of my wingman plunged into the ground in quick succession on the final leg home. The flight had plenty of fuel, and they had not sustained damage. I was bamboozled.

 

Some tweaks to opposition willingness to take a fight when severely outnumbered and deep in your territory would help immensely.

 

 Lastly, a few simple commands would make single player missions more survivable.

- When intercepting, directing a pair (like in 1946) to attack the fighters or bombers. 

- On ground attack, ordering a pair to suppress AA. 

[unreasonable]

I flew the train recon mission in Ten Days of Autumn recently and 2 of my wingman plunged into the ground in quick succession on the final leg home. The flight had plenty of fuel, and they had not sustained damage. I was bamboozled.

 

<snip>

 

Perhaps they collided with one another out of view behind you?  The AI does this fairly often, especially when you make sharp course changes and the flight is in V formation or turn left with a left echelon and so on.  If you were recording you could check the track.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I flew the train recon mission in Ten Days of Autumn recently and 2 of my wingman plunged into the ground in quick succession on the final leg home. The flight had plenty of fuel, and they had not sustained damage. I was bamboozled.

 

Some tweaks to opposition willingness to take a fight when severely outnumbered and deep in your territory would help immensely.

 

 Lastly, a few simple commands would make single player missions more survivable.

- When intercepting, directing a pair (like in 1946) to attack the fighters or bombers. 

- On ground attack, ordering a pair to suppress AA. 

 

The Bf109s since the FM patch seem to be crashing into the ground a lot. I think the AI for them may need to be "retrained" a bit to understand that the stick is heavier.

[Albino]

unreasonable and Shamrock: funnily enough it didn't seem to be either of those!

 

We were in formation cruising, and I noticed the instead of 3 blue arrows on the edge of my screen, there was only 1. I looked around in time to see my 109 wingman beneath and behind, but without a blue label, gliding seemingly uncontrolled into the ground. A little further back was the burning wreckage of the other, who seemed to have suffer the same fate. It was as if both pilots suddenly had heart attacks within 30 seconds of one another.

[Nibbio]

No label means the pilot was dead. Heart attack for sure... Or maybe severe food poisoning?

[jaydee]

I flew the train recon mission in Ten Days of Autumn recently and 2 of my wingman plunged into the ground in quick succession on the final leg home. The flight had plenty of fuel, and they had not sustained damage. I was bamboozled.

 

Some tweaks to opposition willingness to take a fight when severely outnumbered and deep in your territory would help immensely.

 

 Lastly, a few simple commands would make single player missions more survivable.

- When intercepting, directing a pair (like in 1946) to attack the fighters or bombers. 

- On ground attack, ordering a pair to suppress AA. 

 

Agree 100% Albino. 

[unreasonable]

unreasonable and Shamrock: funnily enough it didn't seem to be either of those!

 

We were in formation cruising, and I noticed the instead of 3 blue arrows on the edge of my screen, there was only 1. I looked around in time to see my 109 wingman beneath and behind, but without a blue label, gliding seemingly uncontrolled into the ground. A little further back was the burning wreckage of the other, who seemed to have suffer the same fate. It was as if both pilots suddenly had heart attacks within 30 seconds of one another.

 

BoS version of Sod's law - the most interesting events always happen when you are not recording a track!

[StickMan]

The AI in in IL2 1946 with the latest Team Daidolos patches is very good. So I know the AI could be improved in this as well. The problem is I'm sure it takes a good amount of time to develop those sorts of routines into the AI.

 

The Team Daidolos AI is very convincing at times. I will even practice sometimes against the Ace level. They make hard break turns, and attempt horizontal and rolling scissors. I've even seen AI 109s do negative g pushovers when I was in a spit or hurricane to make me cut my engine if I didn't go inverted to follow. On offense they can be aggressive and deadly accurate.

 

On the flipside the rookie AI will sometimes not even see you, will make errors and sometime bail out of a non damaged airplane simulating panic.

 

The gunners in bombers will miss realistically at longer ranges and not see you thru clouds. The triple a and flak works much the same way.

 

The point is it can be done. It was accomplished by an official modding group pretty well. However I don't think they are under the constraints of developers that have only so much time to dedicate to each area of this sim and also have to feed their families. I'm sure that makes a difference.

Edited September 16, 2017 by StickMan

[smink1701]

I agree… IL2 1946 had much better AI. One can only hope it will be addressed here at some point. I also understand the current team has very few resources and is stretched thin but it's a miracle that they accomplish as much as they do.

[Albino]

The AI in in IL2 1946 with the latest Team Daidolos patches is very good. So I know the AI could be improved in this as well. The problem is I'm sure it takes a good amount of time to develop those sorts of routines into the AI.

 

 

 

I wonder if we can expect similar attention to the AI in CLOD following the 777/Team Fusion Partnership?

[Gambit21]

What does one have to do with the other?

[LLv24_Zami]

Btw, there is a new special topic for AI issues started by Mehovushka: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31321-special-topic-work-ai-ai-behavior-commands-wingman/