Yaks in vertical manoeuvres?

[BraveSirRobin]

You know that even the Yak can climb?

 

Not like a 109

[Irgendjemand]

Not like a 109

 

prophang and lasers are all they need.

[BlitzPig_EL]

So, just as a point of reference... 

 

How long can a Yak "hang" on it's prop, in your experience?  You know, you actually flying a Yak and hanging it on it's prop in a controlled manner that allows you to shoot a 109.

 

I'm guessing you have never tried it, and furthermore that these Yak prop hanging claims are really just the inability of any of us to accurately judge the energy state of any other aircraft we come across.

 

But, my question stands, how long can you hang a Yak on it's prop in the current FM?

Edited September 12, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[Irgendjemand]

So, just as a point of reference... 

 

How long can a Yak "hang" on it's prop, in your experience?  You know, you actually flying a Yak and hanging it on it's prop in a controlled manner that allows you to shoot a 109.

 

I'm guessing you have never tried it, and furthermore that these Yak prop hanging claims are really just the inability of any of us to accurately judge the energy state of any other aircraft we come across.

 

But, my question stands, how long can you hang a Yak on it's prop in the current FM?

 

I have no stopwatch. Certainly my feeling^TM ist that the YAK is the plane thats most controllable for the longest amount of time in such a near stall situation.

At least I see LOTS of poor 109 beginners that get shot down over distances close to a kilometer from yaks that hang below them and are very close to a stall. It looks like they hang there forever.

In fact I like those maneuvers since most of the time I use the oportunity and shred them to thousand small pieces while they hang there:P

Edited September 12, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[Finkeren]

Yeah, why you would ever prophang as part of a combat maneuver is beyond me. All it does is leave you extraordinarily vulnerable for a handful of seconds, where an opponent (not necesarilly the one you are chasing) can gain advantage over you or line up an easy shot. You'd need to be damn sure, that no other enemy is positioned above you and you are gambling that you estimated your energy relative to your opponent just right - regardless whether you're using the maneuver defensively or offensively.

 

But let's put the blame where it belongs: Yaks wouldn't prophang, trying to take pot shots at 109s, unless those 109s were already prophanging themselves or at least going near vertical at close to stall speed, otherwise what the Yaks were attempting would be impossible.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I have some hours in multiplayer yak prop hanging effectiveness is just a mit - all planes can do that but yak is not significant better on that,

same like weapon effectives at range of about 1km. There are some individuals (rare examples) who can hit me from long distances but not from yak but from lagg

 

BTW I love to shot enemies which make mistake and try to prop hang ) there is no more easy opportunity to score kill

Edited September 12, 2017 by 307_Tomcat

[BraveSirRobin]

prophang and lasers are all they need.

Do you have a lot of experience using this maneuver in your Yak in MP? If so, I'd love to see what your online stats look like.

[Irgendjemand]

Do you have a lot of experience using this maneuver in your Yak in MP? If so, I'd love to see what your online stats look like.

 

No i dont. I fly the 190 whenever I can and got time to play games.

[-SF-Disarray]

I have about 700 hours in game, most of them in MP. I have only ever seen, first hand, one plane prop hang that I can recall clearly and with certainty. It was a 109. I killed him for it. I have seen several of 109s and 190s try to climb away too aggressively, perhaps thinking the 'poor' climb rate of the Yak I was flying would allow them to gain separation in a nearly 90 deg climb. I guess they could have seen my killing of them  with a simple nose up flick shot as 'magically hovering just above the ground and using laser guided munition to unfairly end them.' But I didn't stop laughing to ask. Don't get me wrong now. I very much prefer this to the standard response of running away at the first sign of a Soviet pilot putting up some resistance.

[indiaciki]

That's why I tried prophanging. She can hang way longer than the spit. It's not a combat manevre but it shows the yak's ability to climb.

[BraveSirRobin]

No i dont. I fly the 190 whenever I can and got time to play games.

Maybe you should try flying the Yak. At the very least we'll no longer have to read any nonsense posts from you about the scourge of prop hanging Yaks.

[BraveSirRobin]

That's why I tried prophanging. She can hang way longer than the spit. It's not a combat manevre but it shows the yak's ability to climb.

If the Yak was a good climber you wouldn't have to try a prop hang shot. You could just climb up and kill them.

 

The only reason that prop hanging occasionally works is because noob 109 drivers will often try to climb away too hard. Eventually they stall the aircraft. That leaves them almost stationary, and much easier to hit if the VVS pilot is still in range.

[SYN_Haashashin]

BSR, stop getting personal with other members...also thats goes for all of you. I do not care who start it or not, Im finish it. How I do it is up to you guys.

 

Haash

[Irgendjemand]

I have about 700 hours in game, most of them in MP. I have only ever seen, first hand, one plane prop hang that I can recall clearly and with certainty. It was a 109. I killed him for it. I have seen several of 109s and 190s try to climb away too aggressively, perhaps thinking the 'poor' climb rate of the Yak I was flying would allow them to gain separation in a nearly 90 deg climb. I guess they could have seen my killing of them  with a simple nose up flick shot as 'magically hovering just above the ground and using laser guided munition to unfairly end them.' But I didn't stop laughing to ask. Don't get me wrong now. I very much prefer this to the standard response of running away at the first sign of a Soviet pilot putting up some resistance.

PLEASE do me the favor and come playing on Berloga to CET peak evening playtimes. And please tell me your name:)

Id really apprechiate using you for some fun.

@ "BSR":P "Yeah whatever"

Edited September 12, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[Jizzo]

PLEASE do me the favor and come playing on Berloga to CET peak evening playtimes. And please tell me your name:)

Id really apprechiate using you for some fun.

@ "BSR":P "Yeah whatever"

Make a nice "using you for some fun" video and show us!

[Alexmarine]

Make a nice "using you for some fun" video and show us!

"1v1 me bro" but with planes...

[Willy__]

Prophanging works well against 109s not because the russian planes can do it better than the germans, it works because german planes are made of glass, a single shot and you are done. If that shot happens to hit any part of the tail section, most likely the entire stab and rudder will fall off. If you try to prophang with the german planes, which is entirely possible, you will have to have a very good aim to hit especific vital parts of the russian planes, like the engine or the pilot, otherwise it will most likely just shrug it off with some minor leak.

Edited September 12, 2017 by 3./JG15_Staiger

[Jizzo]

"1v1 me bro" but with planes...

[Guest deleted@83466]

I've come to some theories (and others have observed the same, I'm sure) about online air combat, from this sim, and others:

 

1. People have trouble reading other aircraft's energy state, as well as their own.

 

2. People tend to exaggerate distances:  An impressive spray of gunfire that connects with the enemy at 400 meters sometimes gets interpreted as an *impossible* thousand meter shot that killed me with the first bullet.

 

3. Pilots who are currently enjoying a streak of success get complacent, but especially pilots who know they are flying a superior aircraft.  How many times have I seen some Vulture in a 109 doing Lazy Eights above their enemies' airfield for 10 minutes keeping everybody pinned down likes he is some kind of God, but inevitably, somebody comes up from the rear airfield at a higher altitude and bounces him dead.  I've even seen this a few times this week, where the guy typed some things in the chat that led me to believe he was absolutely incredulous that this happened.

 

4.  Pilots enjoying success with a superior aircraft want to minimize the role that their aircraft plays in allowing to achieve that success. (and vice-versa, pilots with inferior planes want to blame the plane, even though it might be their own fault)

 

5. A lot of simmers think they are the best pilot since Chuck Yeager, James Doolittle, and Bob Hoover, so if they get shot down, there must be something wrong or biased about this simulation! 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Iceworm

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Iceworm has summed out the whole online simming affair.

 

A lot of sim pilots - even the good ones - can hold out in practice but lack a thorough understanding of air combat and aeronautics theory. If you only know what you're doing but lack the why and how, it's impossible to get to sensible conclusions.

[LukeFF]

 

 

A lot of simmers think they are the best pilot since Chuck Yeager, James Doolittle, and Bob Hoover, so if they get shot down, there must be something wrong or biased about this simulation! 

 

No truer words have been said. 

[JG13_opcode]

So you wait for the 109 and 190 to turn? Won't happen. What are your options? Dive and turn?

 

 

I wanted to give a semi-concrete answer to this.

 

It goes without saying that you should always try to have an energy advantage over your opponent.  Sometimes you will, others you will be at a disadvantage.  We could go on for pages and pages about how to play defence and try to even out the energy states, etc.

 

So for the purposes of discussion, let's limit ourselves and let's assume you are flying a Yak-1b at 3000 metres and find yourself more-or-less head on with a 190A-3 and you're at Co-E, which means you're at the same altitude and speed (give or take).  So you're on neutral terms with the Fw 190.

 

Your advantages are in turn and sustained climb, and the 190 pilot probably knows his zoom climb and roll rate are among his strengths, so there's a strong chance he will go for a zoom climb after you merge.  I often do this when I fly Axis.  If he's smart, he'll stay very shallow for a bit to extend for separation, before steepening his zoom so that you can't pop the flaps, zoom with him, and shoot him from below.

 

What do?

 

In the old sim I used to fly the Yak-3 or 9 every time they were available on Spits/109s and one possible approach that has worked for me in the past is this:  start a shallow climb away from the 190 and keep it fast, never letting your speed drop below 400 km/h IAS which is about the speed you need to pull the nose up vertical for a shot.  When the 190 reaches the top of his zoom, you shallow your climb out even more and turn into him as you climb.

 

What happens is you build energy as you climb (you sustain 400 km/h) whereas the 190 does not (he zooms and decelerates the whole time, probably pulling G's too).

 

Unless he has a LOT of energy, he will be above you but slow, and has to dive to regain his lost speed.  Since you are still fast, he'll either have to drop below your altitude or else may be able to stay above, but he'll be slow and have very little G available to maneuver, so you can press for the shot.

 

If he DOES have a shitload of energy, he'll be WAY above you and you can hide underneath him to force him to dive steeply if he wants the shot.  Often he will then overshoot below you, and you can run away on the opposite heading to accelerate and climb, or try something else.

[Guest deleted@83466]

I'm all for theory, but there comes a time when you need to put your copy of Shaw down, point your nose at the bad guy, and start blasting away.

[JG13_opcode]

I'm all for theory, but there comes a time when you need to put your copy of Shaw down, point your nose at the bad guy, and start blasting away.

I've done the above and seen it work. If you always just point your nose at the guy you will lose.

 

As for Shaw, the guy was a fighter pilot for like 15 years and has a master's degree in aeronautics so, I'm inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about.

[Guest deleted@83466]

I've done the above and seen it work. If you always just point your nose at the guy you will lose.

 

As for Shaw, the guy was a fighter pilot for like 15 years and has a master's degree in aeronautics so, I'm inclined to believe that he knows what he's talking about.

 

I've never refuted Shaw, so don't create that strawman...

 

To slightly rephrase what I said, I like theory a lot, but there are forum theoreticians, and there are guys that actually go in and get kills in the game (and come back alive), and they aren't necessarily the same.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Iceworm

[Willy__]

 

 

To slightly rephrase what I said, I like theory a lot, but there are forum theoreticians, and there are guys that actually go in and get kills in the game (and come back alive), and they aren't necessarily the same.

 

Dont worry, seeing Opcode flying on mp servers is not a rare thing, unlike some other people    Never saw Finkeren or Lucas flying though....

[JG13_opcode]

Dont worry, seeing Opcode flying on mp servers is not a rare thing, unlike some other people    Never saw Finkeren or Lucas flying though....

 

Nowadays I have an infant daughter and hardly fly at all.  Yesterday or the day before was the first time in like 3 months.  It's amazing how fast your skills degrade

[Willy__]

Im not flying much lately aswell, sometimes real life takes priority 

[Finkeren]

Nowadays I have an infant daughter and hardly fly at all. Yesterday or the day before was the first time in like 3 months. It's amazing how fast your skills degrade

Man, I hear you! I hardly flew at all for six months after my youngest daughter was born. When I finally got back into the mix I felt like a complete rookie. Now that my youngest is 20 months old, I have a lot more time on my hands and can usually land a handful of hours flying time per week.

 

It does get better, I can promise you that much

[BraveSirRobin]

but there are forum theoreticians

Flying VVS in MP is strictly theory for many of the people who seem to think the Yak is some sort of hovering indestructible uber plane.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Im not flying much lately aswell, sometimes real life takes priority 

 

That job as a structural test engineer for Messerschmitt AG cutting into your freetime?

[CIA_Yankee_]

I'd argue that the 109 was a beneficiary of several other factors.  Consider:  Many Luftwaffe victories were against opponents unprepared for the brave new world of WWII fighter combat, such as the Hurricane-equipped RAF in the West and the gutted, leaderless VVS in the East.  109s had such short legs they had almost no endurance over Britain, and the Spitfire MkV was a fantastic aircraft, literally changing the balance of the air war.  The early Soviet types were obsolete as well IMHO.  Once we saw more sophisticated Allied types (and training) come on scene, the Luftwaffe was on the back foot pretty much from there on out.

 

Oh, definitely. There's a reason I spoke of "an idealized featureless 1v1 arena"... reality is a lot more complex, and there are countless factors that affect outcome of air combat. Once VVS training got spun up, and LW skill level itself diminished (through attrition, keeping top pilots on the front lines too long, etc), the VVS had successes against the LW despite having the inferior planes (until, what, 1944, when they finally achieved parity/superiority in quality).

 

But the fact remains that the plane does matter. As much as we like to say "it's the pilot, not the plane", the fact of the matter is that it's both. The very fact that there was an ongoing arms race DURING WWII proves this, and one of the prime example is the constant one-upmanship of the Spitfire and 109 models. At a time when the RAF and LW were both at the top of their game, which side had the best hardware played a significant role. And this does translate in the sim world: the LW does enjoy an advantage whenever you play the game as a pure air-to-air combat sim (or are caught "in the open" by a roaming 109).

 

That said, it's also true that the nature of the eastern theater tended to minimize the LW's advantage. It had the better E fighters, who could dictate the engagement... but they often couldn't afford of just stay up at 5k altitude looking for helpless prey to pounce upon: they had to drop down and watch over Stukas and other bombers, or go after those Pesky Peshkas and Illusive Ilyushins (HA!). Why else would the P-39s be so prized, if not for the realities of war on the eastern front being capable of imposing their constraints over "pure" air-to-air combat. And this, also, expresses itself in the sim: in my experience the VVS tends to focus on objectives more, precisely in order to minimize the LW advantage.

 

Personally, I think it's pretty cool to see these realities reflected in the sim. 

[SYN_Haashashin]

PLEASE do me the favor and come playing on Berloga to CET peak evening playtimes. And please tell me your name:)

Id really apprechiate using you for some fun.

@ "BSR":P "Yeah whatever"

 

Flying VVS in MP is strictly theory for many of the people who seem to think the Yak is some sort of hovering indestructible uber plane.

 

Which part of: "stop getting personal with other members...also thats goes for all of you. I do not care who start it or not, Im finish it. How I do it is up to you guys." Didnt you guys understand?? Please, PM with your answer cus I think I was clear yesterday...

 

Haash

[Guest deleted@83466]

I fail to see a personal attack in BSR's last statement.  The fact of the matter is, and I'm completely sure that you're aware of it Haashashin, is that there are a lot of people on this forum who believe the Yak has some magical qualities, that are simply not borne out in the experience of people who actually fly the Yak on a regular basis.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Iceworm

[SYN_Haashashin]

I'm completely sure that you're aware of it Haashashin, is that there are a lot of people on this forum who believe the Yak has some magical qualities, that are simply not borne out in the experience of people who actually fly the Yak on a regular basis.

I am aware, still there are ways and "ways" of having a conversation and even a debate.

 

Just keep it civil and respect other members, not that I am asking to much I think (this is not directed at you).

 

Haash

[indiaciki]

Agree with Haash. What's your experience - vertical fighting with the Yak 1? That's the point. 2-3 days ago when I started vertical maneuvers with the Yak I got rammed by two 190s a one 109 in one night. Probably out of frustration because they couldn't place a single shot (WOL server).  I do respect kamikaze pilots but does anybody intend to land? I don't get it. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by indiaciki

[Guest deleted@83466]

I honestly think your question was answered in the first couple of responses.  If you have an energy advantage, and he wants to do the loop-de-loop stuff, then you can follow and have every chance of nailing him (assuming his wingman doesn't get you).  If you don't have the energy to go vertical with him, then don't go vertical with him...the much mythologized prop-hang is an example of a plane that really doesn't have the energy to fight vertically using his last ounce of energy to take a Hail Mary shot that rarely succeeds and puts you in a worse position than you were before, assuming the wingman hasn't already killed you at the top.

[blitze]

Agree with Haash. What's your experience - vertical fighting with the Yak 1? That's the point. 2-3 days ago when I started vertical maneuvers with the Yak I got rammed by two 190s a one 109 in one night. Probably out of frustration because they couldn't place a single shot (WOL server).  I do respect kamikaze pilots but does anybody intend to land? I don't get it. 

Try MP on TAW or the Finnish Server, people tend to try and achieve getting back to base one way or another.  The TAW 4min death time out helps as well.  You will though see VVS down low and LW up high on TAW whereby the Finnish server most are on the deck pounding away at objectives, in general.  Also easier to play either side on the Finnish Server helping team numbers if you so desire.

[Dave]

It goes without saying that you should always try to have an energy advantage over your opponent.

Obviously, but the problem is that for VVS this is much easier said than done, so it starts to sound pretty patronising after a while.

So for the purposes of discussion, let's limit ourselves and let's assume you are flying a Yak-1b at 3000 metres and find yourself more-or-less head on with a 190A-3 and you're at Co-E, which means you're at the same altitude and speed (give or take).  So you're on neutral terms with the Fw 190.

Not even close. In the scenario described the 190 has more than 50% more energy. Kinetic energy is proportional to mass. So is potential energy due to elevation. So at the same altitude and speed the 190 has 4420kg/2880kg (or about 1.53) times the Yak's energy. So the Yak is already at a significant disadvantage.

Your advantages are in turn and sustained climb, and the 190 pilot probably knows his zoom climb and roll rate are among his strengths, so there's a strong chance he will go for a zoom climb after you merge.

The 190's initial zoom climb is MUCH better, due to momentum (which is again proportional to mass). Its power-to-weight ratio is close to identical and its sustained climb performance is so very slightly less than the Yak's (about 3% - at lower fuel load it may even be as good or very slightly better) that the deficit will never overcome the advantage built in the initial zoom from 3000m.

... before steepening his zoom so that you can't pop the flaps, zoom with him, and shoot him from below.

Pop flaps???? Are you mad? Flaps == drag. Not something you want when trying to outclimb someone.

 

NB: I used the 190A-8 mass from wikipedia as I don't have the 190A-3 value at hand.

[Dave]

I fly yaks quite a bit, though less lately. You can fly a long curve and let the bagger cut the turn, using geometry and lead pursuit to catch up.

Thats not a "drag-n-bag" its an energy trap to force a flight-path or wing-line overshoot. Which, incidentally, is your most accessible tactical play in a Yak because the bandit will almost always be behind and above you with excess airspeed, and simply legging it isn't an option.

Note that it is very difficult to consistently pull this off if your ping is shit, due to the difficulty in judging the hard turn with ~400ms of lag and the game using what would appear to be client side hit prediction calculated by the shooter.

 

For the OP:

If you can manage to turn to the bandit's cold-side following either a merge or overshoot, and either they are overloaded with other threats or the turn happens to take you downward against terrain that hides you long enough for them to lose sight, bugging out may be possible. But this is generally not the case.

If you can't bug out you WILL have to turn and fight at some point - its just a question of if, when and how you are able to effect it. I find the J-hook energy trap to be most effective with a single opponent and even with 2 if they aren't well coordinated. But as I said above - depending on lag this can be hazardous.

There is no by-the-numbers maneuver that works. You have to judge each situation and your opponent and make tactical choices on the fly based upon how shit is going, how sloppy or good your opponent is, how much energy you can afford to spend on an angles play etc. You don't always have to turn fight a 109. It is possible to energy fight the energy fighter in some circumstances but this takes a lot of practice and much more skill and patience than for the 109 pilot. It is usually not possible due to the circumstances not allowing you the time needed. Whatever tactic you choose in a Yak you need to get it over and done quickly before the rest of the LW turn up.