Mig3 - the dark horse of the FM changes

[Guest deleted@83466]

Still out Mig3 is too fast about 20-25 kph at the deck comparing to RL thing

 

Since you put a smiley face on there, I'm not sure if you are just joking...

 

When coming out of a 700+ kph descent, the Mig does appear to be a pretty slick plane and it seems it is able to hold it's energy in the subsequent straight away for a while longer than most Russian planes.  As already mentioned, this makes it a pretty good choice for staying in useable gun range of 109's who have tried to dive out and then leveled out, something that surprised me.  It gives you a better chance of making those crucial hits on him which diminish his engine and dirty up his airframe, and therefore a decent chance of being able to catch him eventually. However, if you are just flying along on the deck, it seems to be quite slow indeed.  I only started flying it fairly recently, and when I tested its level flight speed on the deck, was actually somewhat appalled.  What are your sources that it should be 20-25 kph slower even still? 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Iceworm

[Finkeren]

Kwiatek has a problem with the fact, that we can close the MiGs radiator when flying fast.

 

The MiG was apparently tested for top speed at sea level with its radiator fully open, and when you do that in game, its top speed is pretty close to some of the test results (which are quite varied). However, when we close radiators, we can reach speeds that Kwiatek thinks is too high.

[LukeFF]

Thanks. I still do not get the logic.

Full rich mixture allows full boost. "Standard" mixture does not.

[Guest deleted@83466]

In fairness to Kwiatek, I don't think he is being overly OCD in regards to a 20 to 25 kph discrepancy, I just am skeptical that his claim is correct.

[KaC_Richard_Rogers]

Good point but it still remains that high speed controls are too heavy and the wing-loading is quite high. Add to that quite a viscous stall and I think it's quite apparent that it's not on par with the Yaks and La5.

 

Post patch I have found the high speed control to be much better in the pitch but much heavier in the roll.

 

How affective one is in a plane is down to the individual and even a clearly inferior plane can be a better choice for some.That said I believe the Mig3 to be a superior plane to the Yak-1 Series 69 but not he Yak 1b. I have not flown the new La5 so cannot comment.

[Boaty-McBoatface]

Since you put a smiley face on there, I'm not sure if you are just joking...

 

 

Ignore him. Let me tell you, this guy Kwiatek is the ultimate VVS troll/Luftwaffe sympathizer. Every single post an attack on VVS flight models and almost always without any source to back up his sensational claims. And yet despite all this is he is almost never seen in-game. One can't help but lol at his bleating.

 

The Mig 3 is a small airframe with a big 1350hp, of course it's fast in a straight line. Unfortunately that's all it is. Very heavy stick forces at high speed and a heavy wing-loading puts it at a disadvantage in most situations.

Edited September 9, 2017 by temujin

[Finkeren]

Kwiatek often raises points that are completely legitimate (including the overperformance of the Bf 109F4 at altitude)

 

The MiG being too fast on the deck-point IMHO is wrong or at least severe nitpicking, but that doesn't make him a troll.

[Venturi]

Full rich mixture allows full boost. "Standard" mixture does not.

I did not realize that throttle was actually limited by mixture on this plane. How so?

[KaC_Richard_Rogers]

I did not realize that throttle was actually limited by mixture on this plane. How so?

 

At 84% fuel mixture you can use the throttle up to 100% or at 100% fuel mixture you can use the throttle up to 92%(?) without engaging the boost.

 

Over 84% fuel mixture or 100% fuel mixture and 93% (plus) throttle enables the boost which at 100% is good for 10 minutes.

 

There is no 50% auto mixture on this plane.

 

I find it easiest to use the fuel % for enabling/disabling boost and there is no advantage speed wise to either method when cruising.

[sniperton]

- Engine has a boost mode which is engaged by setting the mixture control lever to maximum.

 

- Engine mixture control is automatic when the mixture lever is set to the intermediate (50%) position. It is possible to manually lean the mixture by setting the control to less than 50%. This will reduce fuel consumption during flight.

This statement from the aircraft operating guide seems to contradict what you've said. I don't want to argue, I'm simply keen to learn how mixture actually works in the MiG.

Edited September 9, 2017 by sniperton

[303_Kwiatek]

Ignore him. Let me tell you, this guy Kwiatek is the ultimate VVS troll/Luftwaffe sympathizer. Every single post an attack on VVS flight models and almost always without any source to back up his sensational claims. And yet despite all this is he is almost never seen in-game. One can't help but lol at his bleating.

 

The Mig 3 is a small airframe with a big 1350hp, of course it's fast in a straight line. Unfortunately that's all it is. Very heavy stick forces at high speed and a heavy wing-loading puts it at a disadvantage in most situations.

Yea always witouht any suorce if someone cant read with understand

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/27564-mig-3-bias-claims-tested/?do=findComment&comment=445916

[Venturi]

The answer is detonation.

[Finkeren]

Ok, I tried out the MiG in some campaign missions last night, and I can see, why people would think that it's an über now. On my first mission (escort of IL-2s) my single wingman and i were heavily outnumbered (2 full flights of Bf 109F4s over the target - attacked by 2 more near our home base) we shot down 5 of them between us and damaged several more, 2 more crashed on their own and we didn't lose a single aircraft, neither IL-2 or MiG.

 

The 109s were incredibly timid, very slow in maneuvers and not very aggressive at all. I don't know if something has happened to the AI to fly even more carefully down low (to cope with the mountains on the new map?) but this was not solely the result of tye qualities of the MiG but a failure of the AI.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Yes AI on AcE level is very weak now.

[Guest deleted@30725]

Yes AI on AcE level is very weak now.

 

I thought something was up! I always used novice and tried ace a few days ago and almost no difference. Since I'd never used Ace before I was a little disappointed as I'm not a very good pilot and was expecting a really steep challenge.

[J2_Trupobaw]

At 84% fuel mixture you can use the throttle up to 100% or at 100% fuel mixture you can use the throttle up to 92%(?) without engaging the boost.

 

Over 84% fuel mixture or 100% fuel mixture and 93% (plus) throttle enables the boost which at 100% is good for 10 minutes.

 

There is no 50% auto mixture on this plane.

 

I find it easiest to use the fuel % for enabling/disabling boost and there is no advantage speed wise to either method when cruising.

 

So, is 84% mixture safe for continous use with full throttle/pitch? It puts ata well above the "continous" value from documentation (docs say 1000ish IIRC, 84% mixture gives 1100ish, boost proper starts at 1200ish. or something to that effect). 

[Finkeren]

Guys: The 84% mixture doesn't mean anything. It is simply the point where the setting goes from "full rich w. boost" (100%) to "auto rich" (50%) It's only below 50% that the mixture actually functions as a normal mixture lever.

[Finkeren]

Having spent the last 2 days online in a MiG, I can safely say, that it is no world beater.

 

At altitudes above 5000m and with carefully managed radiators, it is just about as fast as the Bf 109F4 on combat engine mode, but it handles so much worse at that altitude, that the 109 can run circles around you.

 

Climb rate is really not very great. It's kind of on par with the LaGG-3 I think, though at high altitude, you have more to work with than other Soviet aircraft.

 

Given a bit of altitude advantage it is a quite deadly opponent to have swoop down on you. In the 400 - 500kph range it is pretty nimble and very hard to shake, but if the MiG stays with you too long, he will bleed his E and end up in a situation that's very hard to get out of.

 

Roll rate above 550kph is absolutely horrendous, but elevator control is decent, so if you have a MiG dropping down on you from orbit at near maximum speed, don't turn just swerve from side to side, and he will miss his shot.

 

Unlike before 2.012 it is a fairly stable gun platform and directionally stable in level flight, so you can snipe pretty well. Once you start maneuvering however, the instability kicks in - though it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be.

 

Also new to 2.012 it fights quite well in the vertical doing tight loops without losing too much E. You need to come in with a good dose of speed to do it effectively though.

 

The MiG is as fragile as ever. Very seldom did I get hit, where the damage did not in some way impede my flying. Where as both the Yaks and the Lavochkins can often shake off a couple of hits.

 

I think I'm probably at a K/D ratio of somewhere around 2/3 (counting the times I get shot down - not pilot deaths) which is a bit worse than I get in Yaks and the La-5, but better than the LaGG-3 and P-40E.

 

All of this seems pretty ok to me.

[A_radek]

Good assesment. The roll rate at high speed is the one single thing that makes me avoid it. At high alt, when jumped from behind, the first thing 9 out of 10 pilots do is head for the deck while rolling. As soon as speed picks up the mig can't follow any kind of scissor:ish maneouver and is forced to overshoot or pull up. I've tried helping out with rudder in such a situation but with little success. Visibility out from the cockpit is for me it's best trait.

[KaC_Richard_Rogers]

So, is 84% mixture safe for continous use with full throttle/pitch? It puts ata well above the "continous" value from documentation (docs say 1000ish IIRC, 84% mixture gives 1100ish, boost proper starts at 1200ish. or something to that effect). 

I can go through a full tank of gas flying at 84% fuel mixture at 100% throttle even throwing in 5-10 minutes on full boost.

 

As to fuel mixture below 84%, why would one when speed is life even when your plane is so slow that a turbo charged snail with a slight back wind could give you a run for your money in a straight line.

[KaC_Richard_Rogers]

Good assesment. The roll rate at high speed is the one single thing that makes me avoid it. At high alt, when jumped from behind, the first thing 9 out of 10 pilots do is head for the deck while rolling. As soon as speed picks up the mig can't follow any kind of scissor:ish maneouver and is forced to overshoot or pull up. I've tried helping out with rudder in such a situation but with little success. Visibility out from the cockpit is for me it's best trait.

When a 109/190 dives to the deck I hang back a bit so any evasive maneuver can be countered effectively; well that at least is the idea.

 

Except that time I ran right up the back end of FFS_Cybermat47, oh boy wasn't on for young and old then   Cheers Mate   

[ATA_Vasilij]

Hi all, also tested Mig 3 this weekend (Finkeren I saw you in the Mig.. )

 

Mig-3 is not a beast. It is a wild horse, from which the others have respect, but he itself has almost nothing to show or to be a dangerous.

 

Some would say, that it is for high level flying and high speeds. BUT - his controlable at high speeds is terrible, almost impossible. Just try to pull up after diving and you will pray to all gods to manage that situation.

And in high altitudes, it is not as good as you would expect. Also it's hard to climb with him.

 

Well I would repeat everything what Finkeren said, so I will just add some my news...

 

- Despite of terrible maneuverability in high speeds, I was able to  shake off Fw 190s in the same speeds. And also shake off the Bfs in rolling together with rudder inputs. Dont know how, but they missed.

- In medium speeds his maneuverability is quite nice, for short time you can be an equal oponent, or even get an advantage. Behaves nicely at minimum speeds and is still controllable. Very nice.

- Its hard to shoot and hit. When I thought I will hit, I missed and in the contrary when I thought I will miss, the target was hit. Yeah most of targets were just smoking, but even from that time you feel better and the oponents worse. You will be learning shooting and aiming for a quite time. Me too

- Has beautiful design and a lot of ammunition, so you dont need to save each bullet.

- You fly more carefully with him, so you will be not probably dead as often as usually.

- It is typically russian plane, so you feel very comfortable and as a patriot. You feel proudly that you are piloting Mig-3.

- Opponents have respect from Mig (dont know why - but they can hold this approach) so they are not attacking from each position, so you have time to make reposition, take a deep breath and dry your wet hands..., perharps even time to search the pedals under the desk or clean you lenses in VR set.

 

But I will keep fly with him, some must fly this beast.....

regards

[[TWB]80hd]

Great info, guys!  I thought the MiG was meh before, mostly because I couldn't be assed to give it any time.  After all the FM changes, it's one of my favorite planes.  The mixture info is clutch, Kmac helped me out with that on take-off, I could always get it into the air but it was like pulling a bucking bronco on a gymnast, every time.  Huh, with the afterburner turned off, it's much easier.  Who knew?!

 

That plane is amazing now, but I'd like to hear opinions on the different weapons options... I think I really prefer the ShVAK Nicholson's to the Berezins, but in all honesty I don't have near enough stick time with it to make a call.

[216th_Jordan]

I, to be honest, think that the Mig-3 did not have an advantage from the new FMs. On the contrary I think that it is harder to fly competitively now. It is more stable now, true. However slower rollrate and stiffness at high speeds makes you easy prey for 109s (F4/G2/G4) as the can quickly outscissor and then outclimb you if you don't have a desizive energy advantage on them. Trying to shake off 109s on your tail is a nightmare.

 

The Mig is still a great fighter but if not flown with a wingman dogfighting is very dangerous.

[Finkeren]

The poor maneuverability at high speed more or less killed it as a BnZer, but in return we got a great dogfighter in the vertical. If you can come in at a good 550kph any German fighter is at your mercy for a couple of minutes until they turn the tables in the energy game. In that time you can stay on top of the fight and attack as you please.

 

Many of my kills I scored while fighting multiple opponents, making slashing attacks from above, getting an oil leak here, puncturing a radiator there - only to be credited minutes later when their engine finally quit (often I had been shot down in the meantime)

[216th_Jordan]

The poor maneuverability at high speed more or less killed it as a BnZer, but in return we got a great dogfighter in the vertical. If you can come in at a good 550kph any German fighter is at your mercy for a couple of minutes until they turn the tables in the energy game. In that time you can stay on top of the fight and attack as you please.

 

 

Just curious how that would work? Climbrate is mediocre and the 109s will park on your 6 in the climb and win the prophanging contests quickly. Atleast that is how I see it.  But I'm also not the best dogfighter in the offense

Edited September 11, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[Finkeren]

Just curious how that would work? Climbrate is mediocre and the 109s will park on your 6 in the climb and win the prophanging contests quickly. Atleast that is how I see it. But I'm also not the best dogfighter in the offense

No prophanging contest. It's a tight vertical dogfight I'm after - not BnZ. Tight loops and immelmanns, quick chandelles to stay slightly above and behind the opponent and always within striking distance (<1km).

 

The idea is, that once you enter the fight with an energy advantage, you stay there, don't zoom away. It will take too long to get a new shooting solution and all the while they will be eating away at your E-advantage. Instead try to stay "on top" of your opponent using your superior mid-speed-range maneuverability to make repeated attacks and frustrate him and bank on closing the deal before your E runs out. When in a fight always try to make sure, that your next attack is no more than 10 seconds away.

[KaC_Richard_Rogers]

Great info, guys!  I thought the MiG was meh before, mostly because I couldn't be assed to give it any time.  After all the FM changes, it's one of my favorite planes.  The mixture info is clutch, Kmac helped me out with that on take-off, I could always get it into the air but it was like pulling a bucking bronco on a gymnast, every time.  Huh, with the afterburner turned off, it's much easier.  Who knew?!

 

That plane is amazing now, but I'd like to hear opinions on the different weapons options... I think I really prefer the ShVAK Nicholson's to the Berezins, but in all honesty I don't have near enough stick time with it to make a call.

The only option worth taking up is the 2 x 12.7mm machine guns.due to their punching power, high rate of fire and the amount of ammo. This load out is great in all situations but especially for high angle and under the nose turning shots.

 

On one recent flight I was able to take out a J88, HE 111, BF 110 and a BF 109 F4. Still had ammo left and was trying to get around on a 109 before getting slammed by 2 Germans at the exact same moment and dying.

[Field-Ops]

Those two Berezins are murder...a tight group in the nose. In QMB for practice I just lit up 4 JU-88s like they weren't even there.

 

Really looking forward to the Yak-7B...2 UBS plus the ShVAK

yea the mig can dish out some nasty damage with just 2x .50 cals. I'm also interested in the Yak7 with the ShVAK addition. Another plane coming in with 2x .50 cals in the nose is the P39. The velocity difference between the M2 .50 and the M4 37mm autocannon wont compliment eachother well but still heavy hitting none the less.

 

I'll just go a bit more off topic here and say the 109 G6 with 2x 13mm Mg131 in the nose would be fitting for the planesets being introduced.

 

 

The Mig is probably my favorite soviet early war plane. It's still competitive into later periods of the war and is more of a specialist tool than an easy to use plane and that holds true after the patch. But thats exactly what makes it fun for me to use. 

[ATA_Vasilij]

Yesterday I took Mig3 for another flight.

 

3 kills in one round and more than 3/4 ammo still remaining after landing - BUT I had to fly very very carefully. It means high altitudes, if more than one target closely turn and run away, if anyone above me turn and run away. Attack just from the positions if you have option to climb out or just to leave the battle at higher speed than opponent.

2 or 3 times saved my life (literally) other russian plane (Yak1b) who took the attention of the germans, so I had a time to leave. 

And again I am repeating, germans have respect from Mig, so they was attacking very rarely with very high caution, so I had a time to leave or to get into better position.

 

This recipe is applicable to any aircraft, so I dont see any advantage for Mig-3. 

Perharps the amount of ammo.

 

- Despite of poor maneuverability I smashed Bf in high speed in maneuvers. Yes its tough to control, but surprisely you still can follow Bfs..Just must say high speed, not top speed. And the work with rudder is crucial. It helps you a lot, much more than with other planes. 

- Despite of hard shooting I smashed other Bf in only one attack when the bullets was hitting the wing which immediately broke away.  

 

There are moments when the Mig surprise you. Positively surprise although you thought it is lost. This never happened to me with Yak or other planes....

[[TWB]80hd]

The only option worth taking up is the 2 x 12.7mm machine guns.due to their punching power, high rate of fire and the amount of ammo. This load out is great in all situations but especially for high angle and under the nose turning shots.

 

On one recent flight I was able to take out a J88, HE 111, BF 110 and a BF 109 F4. Still had ammo left and was trying to get around on a 109 before getting slammed by 2 Germans at the exact same moment and dying.

 

I went ahead and took it out for several runs on Berloga and was very much impressive, even scrumming at low altitude... I went 10 and 1 with it the last map, better than I have done on there before.  I have to admit, the 2x12.7s are amazing.

[216th_Jordan]

No prophanging contest. It's a tight vertical dogfight I'm after - not BnZ. Tight loops and immelmanns, quick chandelles to stay slightly above and behind the opponent and always within striking distance (<1km).

 

The idea is, that once you enter the fight with an energy advantage, you stay there, don't zoom away. It will take too long to get a new shooting solution and all the while they will be eating away at your E-advantage. Instead try to stay "on top" of your opponent using your superior mid-speed-range maneuverability to make repeated attacks and frustrate him and bank on closing the deal before your E runs out. When in a fight always try to make sure, that your next attack is no more than 10 seconds away.

Thanks, will definitely try that chandelle thing!

[Finkeren]

Thanks, will definitely try that chandelle thing!

 

Keep in mind: It's not a slow, steady chandelle meant to gain E-advantage, like you'd do in a Bf 109 - it's a quick, sharp maneuver simply to get "on top" of your opponent, half a turn, and then you attack again.

 

Stay aggressive and hug your opponent, like you'd do in a Yak, but move more in the vertical than horizontal - and pray he isn't too good at avoiding you until he can regain the advantage, because he will do that sooner or later. 

[ATA_Vasilij]

another view:

 

awesome destruction effect when shooting (2x12,7 ) from above on the Bfs wing - broken, broken, broken....

the procedure is as follows: 

You are on the Bfs 6, Bf is trying to evade by turning a sharp turn to the right and slightly descending (typical maneuver when using the rudder). BF is perpendicular to you, that you see it from above (top view), So you move the nose of Mig slightly before his path and press the trigger.

You dont know if you hit or no, few seconds later you see some flash on the wing, Bf is still flying and 3-4s later his wing is broken and the Bf is destroyed. 

Wonderful

 

I start to love this plane.

(Yes again was saved by Yak) If I stay alone with the Bf I would be shot down.

In cooperation with other RED planes, the Mig is very dangerous.

[CIA_Yankee_]

Keep in mind: It's not a slow, steady chandelle meant to gain E-advantage, like you'd do in a Bf 109 - it's a quick, sharp maneuver simply to get "on top" of your opponent, half a turn, and then you attack again.

 

Stay aggressive and hug your opponent, like you'd do in a Yak, but move more in the vertical than horizontal - and pray he isn't too good at avoiding you until he can regain the advantage, because he will do that sooner or later. 

 

To be fair, that last part applies to pretty much all VVS A/Cs against 109s: when you start with an E-advantage, be sure you get him sooner rather than later, because against any good 109 pilot your lead is constantly being eroded. Eventually, the 109 will turn the table on you and be able to dictate the engagement, so be sure to down him quick, and if you realize he's better than you and you won't be able to take him out, use your E-advantage to GTFO while you can (or hope you have a wingman, the great equalizer ).

 

This is why, after all, speed and climb were always the most prized characteristics in a fighter. Being maneuverable in the horizontal is wonderful, but doesn't help when the other plane refuses to turn with you.

[Finkeren]

To be fair, that last part applies to pretty much all VVS A/Cs against 109s: when you start with an E-advantage, be sure you get him sooner rather than later, because against any good 109 pilot your lead is constantly being eroded. Eventually, the 109 will turn the table on you and be able to dictate the engagement, so be sure to down him quick, and if you realize he's better than you and you won't be able to take him out, use your E-advantage to GTFO while you can (or hope you have a wingman, the great equalizer ).

True, with the possible exception of the La-5 it is always better for a VVS pilot to hug the 109s and deny them a change to build E. But there are differences in how you should do it in the different planes. The I-16, LaGG-3 and Yaks are better in the horizontal and the MiG is better in the vertical. The Spit can do it all well (except scissors at higher speeds) and the P-40 is still best as an ambush fighter.

The reason why I went into detail about the MiG is that when someone say "fight in the vertical", people immidiately think BnZ, rope-a-dope etc, and that's not what I was talking about.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Your method is bang on with pilot reports from 1941, Finkeren

[hames123]

As usually in this kind of thread, I advise anyone interesting to do 5 interception missions in each Soviet fighter and post your findings here. How many bombers did you shoot down? How many times was your pilot killed? How many times did the bombers get to their target and drop their load on your friends? How many bombers were there on average. In the interest of fairness, only choose bomber intercepts, not ground attack planes or transports. That way every plane can be compared in an environment that is most flak free and with no danger of flying into the ground. If you want to make it quick, you can literally start close and use x8 to zoom there fast. Or you could spend the weekend doing this and comparing. Your choice.

Edited September 14, 2017 by hames123

[ACG_Invictus]

I agree that the MiG-3 is now a wonderful plane to fly.  I felt it was a good ride in the past, but the changes introduced over the past year have really added to the agility of the plane.  The MiG is now by far my favorite plane to fly when I fly Allied. 

 

Don't get me wrong....my favorite plane in the game is still the bf109 E7.  I still plan to get a "E7 Love!  E7 Life!" t-shirt made in the near future. :D   But my second favorite plane is the MiG-3, and the LaGG currently holds the number three spot. 

 

Don't underestimate the shvak. I love the UBS but the tracerless shvak is a real killer, best used in ambushes. Without the tracers you minimize your chances on being spotted and maximize you chance for a kill of unaware targets.

Agree 100% on this.  The UBS is great....but I much prefer  "boom boom" (i.e. cannons) to MGs in general.  The lack of tracers is a plus for me.  In CLoD and other games I never load tracer rounds as I tend to overcorrect for missed shots, so oddly I find I'm more accurate not using tracers.  Same appears to be the case in BoX.   The advantage from not using tracers in an ambush is just an added bonus.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I would take p40 rather than mig against enemies. Definitely Lagg