Pe2 gunners

[BubiHUN]

I belive this does not need to describe.
I hope Devs will make them to act normally. These snipings are pretty annoying.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I belive this does not need to describe.

I hope Devs will make them to act normally. These snipings are pretty annoying.

I didn't realize how bad the problem was until I started flying red, and it suddenly wasn't a problem.

[19//Moach]

having flown enough on both sides, I can say something about this now.

 

at first I had not believed it, for as many things on the internet, complaining players are very commonly just that - but once or twice I had had a chance to give it pause for consideration.

 

this was rare before, when the german team was persistently stacked, likely due to the advantage given to 109s in the previous FMs - nowadays, teams have become largely more even in MP, and I have gotten more opportunity to fly blue this last week than I had in the last few months combined

 

 

and now, especially so without the magic maneuverability issue to counter it, it does very well seem quite clear that Pe2 gunners have an uncanny ability to shoot an impossibly accurate first round, not to the plane, but to the pilot in the cockpit. striking off his head before any further bullets can be seen coming off his turret

 

it seems also that this happens with alarming frequency - and makes attacking a Pe2 from behind an unfairly suicidal proposition.

 

 

I can now vouch for this as a certainty - not that I have any comment on whether these gunners were or not historically "that good", but it does seem rather obvious that no other plane in the game, on either team, has a gunner that's anywhere near as high a threat.

 

and thus it is fair to conclude that yes, a bug does exist, and it makes for an unusually high pilot head-shot probability on the very first bullet fired by a Pe2 gunner

Edited September 5, 2017 by 19//Moach

[BubiHUN]

I have no problem setting up a very planned attack angle against peshkas. I always do that, attacking them from a high angle, to avoid its gunners, but they still can do those "sniping" shots.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I think that the Pe-2 has all the qualities that allows it to make full use of the very good computer guided gunners:

• Has a very clear field of fire (twin rudder tail).
• Has a traversable turret
• Has a gun which combines good rate of fire, high muzzle velocity, little ballistic drop, good damage potential (explosive rounds + good AP rounds) and it's belt fed.

The other plane gunners have either a big rudder blocking the straight 6 o clock, and/or rifle caliber MGs which have more ballistic drop and less damage output in case of lucky hits (full burst vs full burst the higher rate of fire of the ShKAS and MG 15/17/81 might outweight the UBT), and some of them have magazines which limits their effectivity in this regard.

 

I think when we have a B-25 or say a G4M with it's 20mm tail gunner (with unrestricted field of fire) these planes will surpass the Pe-2 in lethality and make a better example of how good the AI in the gunners can be.

[19//Moach]

no, I'm afraid this has little to do with the airplane's tail geometry or turret design

 

 

sure, it helps a bit - but we're not talking about shots that hit various parts of the plane with slightly higher-than-normal precision

 

 

we mean, this gunner will more often than not, land a miraculously precise shot straight between the pilot's eyes, without ever having to "walk his fire" towards it.

 

it most often happens so unpredictably, that the attacker will not even realize the gunner was firing back.  generally because, prior to that first shot which removed his brains from the skull once contained them, he had not started yet.

 

it is a prodigiously accurate hole-in-one headshot.  a dumbfounding feat of divine marksmanship.

 

 

it seems to me (theory), it happens whenever the attacking pilot presents his fated head to either the top or the bottom gunner, (not sure which) at the time he enters his "decision range" (the distance where he starts firing), the game "skips" that first bullet from the laws which govern the probability of error, allowing a mathematically-perfect initial round.

 

by this logic, should one manage to approach without exposing himself inside the cockpit to this lethal first bullet, the following rounds may not be as accurate.  this may also be so if more than one plane attack in close succession, the first will most likely become the filling of a freshly dug crater, but the second should be subject to fire no more deadly than any other gunner might offer.

 

this should account for the various times in which the attacker does not meet an unfathomably swift, "lights out" style of doom.

 

then it's also possible that this unlikely golden bullet could be "reloaded", should the gunner be allowed to reset himself.  (sits back down for a bit, perhaps) - but that much is mere speculation.

 

 

 

anyways, it is all for a certainty that these gunners are very much blessed with a surpassingly keen eye, the likes of which make the stuff of song and legend.

 

 

yet these savant-shots seem to be aboard every other Pe2 in the VVS, a statistical unlikelihood which points to a very compelling argument for a simpler explanation:   it's a bug

Edited September 7, 2017 by 19//Moach

[LukeFF]

Need tracks, or this is going to go nowhere.

[ITAF_Cymao]

Regardless of the caliber for a fighter attacking a bomber from his six it should be dangerous for every plane
It is surreal to see russian aircrafts who park on a german bombers without any problem, while it is impossible to attack a Pe2 without suffering serious damage.
If someone needs a track means that he never attacked a Pe2, he only attacked the H111...

 

S! and sorry for my bad English.

Edited September 7, 2017 by ITAF_Cymao

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Moach's dear friend and fellow flier who shall not be named did a vid of this awhile ago. "Comrade Stalin, guide my bullets!"

 

[19//Moach]

fortunately, someone has already compiled a number of videos about this - I supposed there ought to be others.  it is a very well known fact that those gunners are impossibly accurate

 

https://gaming.youtube.com/watch?v=Bft7X7XpAWk

 

https://gaming.youtube.com/watch?v=O2DtaB_iRuM

 

https://gaming.youtube.com/watch?v=sckoidvcqo0

 

https://gaming.youtube.com/watch?v=MMhGDlneS7c

 

 

those are just the few I found in a brief search - this is not any news to the MP crowd

Edited September 7, 2017 by 19//Moach

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I'll admit, me and my friend whored pe2s for ages, at time scoring 3 kills in a flight by just letting Ivan do his thing. Once we both went VR, he fell in love with the 109. The first time we rolled in on a lone pe2 together...

 

We both simultaneously said "wow is that broken or what"

 

We finally saw what it's like on the receiving end. Not fun.

 

(Yes this is anecdotal, could be viewed as conjecture and no i don't have a track.)

[LukeFF]

 

 

f someone needs a track means that he never attacked a Pe2, he only attacked the H111...

 

Nope, sorry, not even close. I've attacked Pe-2s successfully many a times without suffering a pilot kill or critical damage. 

[ITAF_Cymao]

 

 

Nope, sorry, not even close. I've attacked Pe-2s successfully many a times without suffering a pilot kill or critical damage

So do you say that german and russian gunners have the same precision of shooting?

 

Not to mention the inefficiency of german bullets on russian planes, we can't say that the guilty is the small caliber used by the german gunners

 

Look this video from min. 2.00

 

that world of difference!

 

If it's all right for you and you don't find these things at least questionable, ok no problem.
But you should also ask to change the name of the game in Pe-2: Battle of Stalingrad, but maybe it would have less appeal than the IL-2 Sturmovik brand ...

 

S!

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

C'mon now.

 

You want 7.92mm bullets to make a significant impact from what looks to be 400-500m on a plane known to be extremely sturdy? What kind of damage do you think rifle caliber AP rounds can do if they don't hit critical components? Also, did you notice that still the LaGG-3 had engine damage from those peashooters in the video?

 

Then you get ripped to bits by a fast-firing .50 gun from 100m away and think it's some kind of laser gunnery because the peashooters don't do that... cute.

[BubiHUN]

well, 111s 20mm should do the job, SHOULD. But no, Ivan Ai gunners have superior skills. Happened to me, and saw it on some videos, peshkas stalled, they were in a spin, and a plane buzzed it, but ivan shot them down with 1 lucky shot. Not with a burst. I assume im not the only one who expereienced the same or very similar "fun"

Edited September 8, 2017 by -[HRAF]BubiHUN

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Has it occurred to you that this happens with every plane and that all gunners use the same AI and calculations to shoot?

 

The difference is the Pe-2 (like the Ju-88) is fast so the attacker is usually exposed for longer, and its field of fire is better than the Ju-88's. But even then, attacking the Ju-88 is a nightmare - 4/5 times it leads to a deadstick landing while the bastard soldiers on just fine.

 

The He-111 however is slow, and has pretty poorly arranged gunner positions so you can dance circles around it if you know what you're doing. Like in real life.

[Yogiflight]

 

 

and its field of fire is better than the Ju-88's.

The field of fire in the Ju88 is not that bad, as it doesn't have a centered reargun, like the He111, with the vertical stabilizer directly in front of the gun, but two guns left and right of the stabilizer. So if the attacking fighter doesn't change between left and right rear all the time of his attack, it is pretty the same for the 88's gunner to shoot at the attacker, as for the Pe2's. Just try it, it works pretty well. Only if you have to change side, you will struggle with the time delay, as the gunner would have to go over to the other side and take the weapon.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

That's exactly the way to engage them though, changing from side to side. The problem is that since it flies pretty fast it's easy to end up in a tailchase accidentally and get shot down as a consequence.

[ITAF_Cymao]

You want 7.92mm bullets to make a significant impact from what looks to be 400-500m on a plane known to be extremely sturdy? What kind of damage do you think rifle caliber AP rounds can do if they don't hit critical components? Also, did you notice that still the LaGG-3 had engine damage from those peashooters in the video?

 

C'mon now.

is it normal for you to be hit at least 30 times by bullets, even if small, without any significant damage? And in this case gunners was human, if AI instead 0 or max 1-2 shots to sign....

 

Strange, though, that the german gunners never hit the vital parts of russian aircraft, very strange!

While russian gunners always hit at the first shot the most vital parts of german aircrafts, and if not the first to second shot even 500/600 meters away...

It can not be solved with the alibi of the caliber of the bullets...

 

S!

Edited September 8, 2017 by ITAF_Cymao

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

You think that black smoke coming from the engine exhaust is some smoked barbeque grilling on the engine?

[ITAF_Cymao]

You think that black smoke coming from the engine exhaust is some smoked barbeque grilling on the engine?

 

I think so!

If he did not smoke a little after at least 20 shots taken, and just because the gunner was human

If it's okay for you, no problem.

I understand that you prefer to have no trouble when shoot at german bombers, and you can continue to enjoy yourself this way!

But that does not mean it's the right thing, and it isnt!

 

S!

Edited September 8, 2017 by ITAF_Cymao

[Alexmarine]

I would fire your gunner then... I had to bail several time thanks to LW MGs

[Haza]

Gents,

 

I have not really been bothered with the Pe2 gunner and how accurate it is with AI, as more often than not, I always use the gunner myself and not the AI.  However, during a recent sortie on WOL, whilst playing in the H-16, owing to its fire power I put my gunners to AI and assumed that they would protect me.  I clearly remember watching ALEX12031959 in his usual Yak climbing up underneath me from about 2K, whilst I was at 5K.  I left the lower gunners position and returned to my pilot's position, knowing that with the H-16 rear fire-power I would be safe!  Less than 5 mins later, I heard both gunners opening up and the sound of those guns to me was the sound of safety, however, imagine my surprise to be PK'd in the pilot's seat and when I moved to the top gunners position, ALEX was just sat on my 6 less than 100m away with full guns blazing.  The next thing I knew was that I was sat in my waist gunners position with the plane circling down on fire with no control from 5K and even hearing ALEX still attacking me at 500m from the deck.

 

Post game, I checked the stats and not one of my AI gunners even hit ALEX, however, when attacking a PE2 in a 109 from 300m away, I usually get hit.  Therefore, I now understand why many players here believe that the PE2 rear AI gunner is OP.  In addition, I'm now less inclined to bother playing multi-crew Luftwaffe aircraft on WOL.

 

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/log/2276966/?tour=26

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/log/2277035/?tour=26

 

Regards

 

Haza

[L3Pl4K]

Heinkel and Junkers Gunners using the squint tracking system from Spaceballs

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Heinkel and Junkers Gunners using the squint tracking system from Spaceballs

 

I said across her nose not up it!

[E69_geramos109]

I just make 3 kills on the second map of TAW just driving in to 109s clouds and leting my gunner to do the rest. I was shot donwn on the end becuase i was out of ammo. I was still flying but i crash near my base when i lose some speed and the plane turn incontrolable. 

[Alexmarine]

I was downed by a single 109 while flying a Pe-2 yesterday....my OP gunners are broken :,(

[BubiHUN]

I was downed by a single 109 while flying a Pe-2 yesterday....my OP gunners are broken :,(

it means geramn fighters learned how to avoid ivans magic aiming, not because its okay.

[Alexmarine]

it means geramn fighters learned how to avoid ivans magic aiming, not because its okay.

Or maybe he skilfully attacked me?

 

Moreover:

 

>Magic Soviet one-shot Lasers that kill you no matter what.

 

>Be able to evade them and press the attack

 

Pick one please

Edited September 16, 2017 by Alexmarine28

[SeaW0lf]

This is nothing new. It is ROF's legacy and I imagine it happens with all gunners one way or another. The best way for a rookie to rack some kills is to fly a bomber and let the gunners do their magic. I used to fly Gothas in ROF in one particular mission and get two, three kills in every sortie. I would leave it in auto level and the AI gunners would do their sniping. Add the fact that you don't lose your record if you land in enemy territory and in general you have an easy winner. The other day I forgot about that and spent a second behind a Stuka. I was blasted out of the sky as if the gunner had a 37mm. I think it was one single shot. I even asked on chat if the Stukas had cannon mods for the gunner.

 

Do they have the hack to gun and pilot at the same time in BOX? Then you can really spoil multiplayer. I hope they left it out. It has no place in multiplayer.

Edited September 16, 2017 by SeaW0lf

[L3Pl4K]

Is the sniper phenomenon only on ace level? If so, a  replace of the ai routine with a lower level could be used as interim fix. More 88/111 feeling for the Pe2 jockeys.

[CUJO_1970]

I just make 3 kills on the second map of TAW just driving in to 109s clouds and leting my gunner to do the rest.

 

Yes, this is typical Pe-2 sortie online.

[Alexmarine]

Yes, this is typical Pe-2 sortie online.

Yes, and everyone in the server usually starts clapping their hands when the Pe-2 goes back to base...