I'll bite; how do I do it??

[DDoutel]

I always fly full-real; that said, I'd really like to know how I can show a minimap in flight? pressing "O" always gets me a full-screen map, in spite of having set the minimap mode to compact. What am I doing wrong??

 

Thanks,

3./JG51_Baldur

 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

No in flight minimap during expert difficulty, but if you have a smartphone or tablet you can use il2missionplanner.com or download the Il-2 ﹰTactical ﹰMap app.

[DDoutel]

Seriously?? Ok, thanks; appreciate the reply!

[unreasonable]

I wish there was an option to have the O map come up in 1/2 or 1/4 of your screen.  In RL you do not completely lose all spatial awareness when you look at a map........

[LukeFF]

I wish there was an option to have the O map come up in 1/2 or 1/4 of your screen.  In RL you do not completely lose all spatial awareness when you look at a map........

 

Agreed. It's one of those design decisions I do not care for. That, and having the map auto-dim when flying in low-light conditions.

[TG-55Panthercules]

Yeah - I really hope they rethink the whole map thing for the next update.  I could work around it by using my iPad for my map before, but now with VR that's not really an option, so it would really be nice to be able to pull up a mini map on screen without having to worry about having the whole HUD on (and tanking FPS), or being trumped by difficulty settings or whatever is going on now.

 

What would be really cool would be an option to have the mini-map come up in your cockpit (like it was on your knee-board or something) - I bet that would be really great for VR.

Edited September 3, 2017 by TG-55Panthercules

[DDoutel]

I could not agree with you gentlemen more; it's tough enough to navigate in this sim, and they've made it several orders of magnitude harder with this map nonsense.

[scotchegg]

Yep, from a young age it was noted in my family that I 'couldn't find my arse with both hands' and not having a map handy is one thing that keeps my away from expert settings on campaigns. Would really like to but as my Oculus arrives today won't be able to take advantage of external apps.

[SCG_Hobo]

On expert settings, targets are layed out on the briefing map. The map in game needs to be clear of targets on expert settings. I think a mini map is a great idea. 

Also I'd like to suggest a mission planner in the minimap to use like a pilots kneeboard. You could make track lines, draw in targets, and ideally even share it with your squad like you can on il2missionplanner but now we're getting complicated.

[DDoutel]

Yep, from a young age it was noted in my family that I 'couldn't find my arse with both hands' and not having a map handy is one thing that keeps my away from expert settings on campaigns. Would really like to but as my Oculus arrives today won't be able to take advantage of external apps.

 

It's great that the community members have stepped up to fill the gap, but it shouldn't have been necessary. I mean, come on! Where would I put my coffee, cigarettes and beer with a laptop sitting there when I'm flying?? 

Edited September 4, 2017 by DDoutel

[Pharoah]

TBH disabling a mini map in game doesn't make sense. Most mil pilots (esp fighter pilots) fly with a map on their thigh for quick ref. Bringing up O is akin to flying an a/c, then unfolding a map so that it covers the cockpit windows. We should be able to use the minimap to navigate (remove all the icons or GPS, etc). Agree, we definitely need some sort of nav tools. RL pilots don't just look at a map and go 'hmm...thats about 078 deg I'll just fly that and see how i go'. Doesn't take away from the fact we still need to do ground-to-map (and vice versa). 

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

What everyone said ^

[DDoutel]

TBH disabling a mini map in game doesn't make sense. Most mil pilots (esp fighter pilots) fly with a map on their thigh for quick ref. Bringing up O is akin to flying an a/c, then unfolding a map so that it covers the cockpit windows. We should be able to use the minimap to navigate (remove all the icons or GPS, etc). Agree, we definitely need some sort of nav tools. RL pilots don't just look at a map and go 'hmm...thats about 078 deg I'll just fly that and see how i go'. Doesn't take away from the fact we still need to do ground-to-map (and vice versa). 

 

+1

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by DDoutel

[Sokol1]

Map all over cockpit is "realistic": 

 

[TG-55Panthercules]

Map all over cockpit is "realistic": 

 

 

 

[Pharoah]

Map all over cockpit is "realistic": 

 

 

lol touche!!! coffee came out my nose when i saw that..and all over my comp screen. That made my day.

[curiousGamblerr]

It's great that the community members have stepped up to fill the gap, but it shouldn't have been necessary. I mean, come on! Where would I put my coffee, cigarettes and beer with a laptop sitting there when I'm flying??

"it shouldn't have been necessary"

 

This is often repeated as a foregone conclusion, but I'm not convinced. I wax philosophical whenever someone uses the word "should" but I'll spare you all that rant.

 

Beyond the philosophical there's also the practical: We're fans of a niche genre. There's only so much money to be spent, which means there's only so much that can be created by the devs. In software we have something called the 90-90 rule, which states that the first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time... and with a low budget and a small and fickle fan base, these devs don't have 180% of the time like big studios. So they focus on the important stuff and sometimes bells and whistles must be sacrificed.

 

It's for this reason that I'm comfortable pre-ordering from this company, something I don't do with the likes of EA games, and also why I'm happy to contribute to the community with the mission planner. I do wish there was more opportunity for integration directly with the game, but such things are tricky and they're working on it. I'm looking forward to seeing what the mod system and gauge APIs have to offer.

 

As a side note, the challenge of VR and the mission planner is something that never occurred to me and piques my interest. I probably can't solve it, unless the steam overlay browser works in VR and the mission planner works in the steam overlay browser, which I don't know (but I'm curious to find out).

[DDoutel]

"it shouldn't have been necessary"

 

This is often repeated as a foregone conclusion, but I'm not convinced. I wax philosophical whenever someone uses the word "should" but I'll spare you all that rant.

 

Beyond the philosophical there's also the practical: We're fans of a niche genre. There's only so much money to be spent, which means there's only so much that can be created by the devs. In software we have something called the 90-90 rule, which states that the first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time... and with a low budget and a small and fickle fan base, these devs don't have 180% of the time like big studios. So they focus on the important stuff and sometimes bells and whistles must be sacrificed.

 

It's for this reason that I'm comfortable pre-ordering from this company, something I don't do with the likes of EA games, and also why I'm happy to contribute to the community with the mission planner. I do wish there was more opportunity for integration directly with the game, but such things are tricky and they're working on it. I'm looking forward to seeing what the mod system and gauge APIs have to offer.

 

As a side note, the challenge of VR and the mission planner is something that never occurred to me and piques my interest. I probably can't solve it, unless the steam overlay browser works in VR and the mission planner works in the steam overlay browser, which I don't know (but I'm curious to find out).

 

Gambler,

 

At the risk of sounding like a smart alec, I've been a software engineer for going on 40 years, now, the vast majority of it spent on small teams and working independently, and I know all about the 90-90 rule, so I'll just let the lecture go at that; I'm not looking to argue. I think perhaps instead of worrying about new planes, new theaters, VR, etc., some of the basic design decisions bear revisiting, this being one of them. perhaps if the sim were a little more friendly in terms of a simple thing like a popup map, and yes, it is a simple thing (I've build similar widgets myself), it would benefit everyone, not just the small number of people using VR, or the people wanting new theaters, or, or, or... We don't need flight planning tools or moving plots, just zoom/scroll capabilities. Given that the team, small as it is, already has the windowing and mapping code, this is something that could be done with a minimum of effort and time, even for a small team. You know it, and I know it, given our backgrounds.

 

I'm grateful for what the team has accomplished, don't get me wrong. But to have to rely on an external device just to find our way around in the sim is seriously limiting, an unnecessary impediment to the enjoyment of the game. If you've played CLoD, you know how that minimap works. Given that the plotting tools in it are broken, all it does is pan and zoom, but it's enough to find our way around the map. This is all I'm advocating for here.

 

I know hardcore veterans of the IL2 franchise going back to the original IL2 who simply won't come over here to BoS because of a few small but significant shortcomings, this being one of them. Want to attract a larger player base? Give us a simple map! Heck, as someone mentioned above, take the full-screen map accessed with the "O" key, and put it in a window that can be moved around the screen and resized. Not difficult, just a matter of doing it.

Map all over cockpit is "realistic": 

 

 

Gotta love Capt. Jack Kelso!   

[BazzaLB]

Just want to add my voice to mini map request

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

 

 

As a side note, the challenge of VR and the mission planner is something that never occurred to me and piques my interest. I probably can't solve it, unless the steam overlay browser works in VR and the mission planner works in the steam overlay browser, which I don't know (but I'm curious to find out).

Please If you could solve this, it would be epic. Removing my hmd, to use my iPad for il2planner is clumsy at best.

Edited September 4, 2017 by [CPT]CptJackSparrow

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Note- I have not tried this. Plus there is a cost.

 

OVRDrop (available on steam) + Gamblers mission planner should achieve what you want. In theory you can project his application into the VR world, either in the position of where your kneeboard would have been, or on the back of one of your VR controllers for example.

 

I might have to pony up the $15USD to give it a try. I have seen twitch streamers using the capability in the HTC Vive many months ago.

Edited September 4, 2017 by =TBAS=Tripwire

[Herne]

Yep, from a young age it was noted in my family that I 'couldn't find my arse with both hands' and not having a map handy is one thing that keeps my away from expert settings on campaigns. Would really like to but as my Oculus arrives today won't be able to take advantage of external apps.

 

Bringing up the map in VR still gives you peripheral vision of the horizon, and you can look left and right to see out of your cockpit, Map fills the forward view. It probably is more suited to VR than it is for monitor set ups.

[J2_Jakob]

take the full-screen map accessed with the "O" key, and put it in a window that can be moved around the screen and resized. Not difficult, just a matter of doing it.

 

This is precisely how it was already implemented in RoF. Dunno why they came up with this as a "successor". Oh, in RoF you also (quite intuitively) press "M" by default to view the map. 

[Recon]

Agree, trying to navigate full real by completely toggling the entire screen with a map is annoying!  Would love a way to just pop up a minimap regardless of difficulty level.

[curiousGamblerr]

Gambler,

 

At the risk of sounding like a smart alec, I've been a software engineer for going on 40 years, now, the vast majority of it spent on small teams and working independently, and I know all about the 90-90 rule, so I'll just let the lecture go at that; I'm not looking to argue. I think perhaps instead of worrying about new planes, new theaters, VR, etc., some of the basic design decisions bear revisiting, this being one of them. perhaps if the sim were a little more friendly in terms of a simple thing like a popup map, and yes, it is a simple thing (I've build similar widgets myself), it would benefit everyone, not just the small number of people using VR, or the people wanting new theaters, or, or, or... We don't need flight planning tools or moving plots, just zoom/scroll capabilities. Given that the team, small as it is, already has the windowing and mapping code, this is something that could be done with a minimum of effort and time, even for a small team. You know it, and I know it, given our backgrounds.

 

I'm grateful for what the team has accomplished, don't get me wrong. But to have to rely on an external device just to find our way around in the sim is seriously limiting, an unnecessary impediment to the enjoyment of the game. If you've played CLoD, you know how that minimap works. Given that the plotting tools in it are broken, all it does is pan and zoom, but it's enough to find our way around the map. This is all I'm advocating for here.

 

I know hardcore veterans of the IL2 franchise going back to the original IL2 who simply won't come over here to BoS because of a few small but significant shortcomings, this being one of them. Want to attract a larger player base? Give us a simple map! Heck, as someone mentioned above, take the full-screen map accessed with the "O" key, and put it in a window that can be moved around the screen and resized. Not difficult, just a matter of doing it.

 

Gotta love Capt. Jack Kelso! 

 

Respectfully, I'm sorry my post felt like a lecture, but despite your experience you still missed my point. Hang around these forums for a bit and you'll realize there's a list of a thousand "simple" things like this, and everyone always seems flabbergasted that their simple thing doesn't get implemented. Meanwhile, I'm flabbergasted the team has accomplished what they have, since they can apparently count their programmers on one finger (yes, one finger   ). There's no need to argue because your complaints re:design decisions are not wrong per se, but they lack an appreciation for reality faced by the dev team as far as I understand it. Neither of us is on the team, however, so perhaps one of both of us misunderstand their situation.

 

Regardless, I suggest you create a post about this in the suggestions forum, and if you don't get the response you want, look into fixing this problem yourself when mods mode is released. That's really all any of us can do besides voting with our dollars. And apologies again for the accidental lecture 

 

As for the mission planner in VR, if anyone can test the various solutions mentioned here I would love to know the results. Unfortunately I don't have VR or access to a VR rig so I'm not able to do much myself. Please PM me/post in the mission planner thread if you have results to share or need any support from my end. Any effort in that vein is appreciated!

Edited September 4, 2017 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[DDoutel]

Respectfully, I'm sorry my post felt like a lecture, but despite your experience you still missed my point. Hang around these forums for a bit and you'll realize there's a list of a thousand "simple" things like this, and everyone always seems flabbergasted that their simple thing doesn't get implemented. Meanwhile, I'm flabbergasted the team has accomplished what they have, since they can apparently count their programmers on one finger (yes, one finger   ). There's no need to argue because your complaints re:design decisions are not wrong per se, but they lack an appreciation for reality faced by the dev team as far as I understand it. Neither of us is on the team, however, so perhaps one of both of us misunderstand their situation.

 

Regardless, I suggest you create a post about this in the suggestions forum, and if you don't get the response you want, look into fixing this problem yourself when mods mode is released. That's really all any of us can do besides voting with our dollars. And apologies again for the accidental lecture 

 

As for the mission planner in VR, if anyone can test the various solutions mentioned here I would love to know the results. Unfortunately I don't have VR or access to a VR rig so I'm not able to do much myself. Please PM me/post in the mission planner thread if you have results to share or need any support from my end. Any effort in that vein is appreciated!

 

Also with respect, Gambler, you're right; neither of us is on the team, so neither of us knows what their coding resources are at any given point in time, and you're also right that I haven't spent a lot of time here on the forums. I Didn't come aboard until recently.

 

I've known and been one-man "teams", as have you, and am very much aware of the necessity of carefully prioritizing features and fixes between releases. That said, I'll make that post in the suggestions forum, as apparently, I'm not alone in seeing this as a matter of some Importance to us all.

 

I was not aware of a forthcoming "mods mode". That'd be a very large topic all by itself, and much care would need to be taken with any add-in scheme such that no add-in could affect other pilots in multiplayer. it would also need to be a fairly rich API to support access to the sim's windowing and mapping capabilities, and this could pose issues with stability. And talk about coding resources needed to accomplish it...! Big stuff!

 

But I digress...

 

May I ask, did you build IL2MissionPlanner.com, or the IL2 Maps app I've seen for android?

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

I would like to add my voice for a small map for navigation since I use VR Would be really useful not to loose control because I'd like to look at the map.

Perhaps I'd check that OVRDrop software aswell Then I could get my flight plan from one of the excellent third party maps on screen.

[DDoutel]

Ok, I made the post over in the suggestions forum; please feel free to chime in if you want a minimap.

[curiousGamblerr]

Also with respect, Gambler, you're right; neither of us is on the team, so neither of us knows what their coding resources are at any given point in time, and you're also right that I haven't spent a lot of time here on the forums. I Didn't come aboard until recently.

 

I've known and been one-man "teams", as have you, and am very much aware of the necessity of carefully prioritizing features and fixes between releases. That said, I'll make that post in the suggestions forum, as apparently, I'm not alone in seeing this as a matter of some Importance to us all.

 

I was not aware of a forthcoming "mods mode". That'd be a very large topic all by itself, and much care would need to be taken with any add-in scheme such that no add-in could affect other pilots in multiplayer. it would also need to be a fairly rich API to support access to the sim's windowing and mapping capabilities, and this could pose issues with stability. And talk about coding resources needed to accomplish it...! Big stuff!

 

But I digress...

 

May I ask, did you build IL2MissionPlanner.com, or the IL2 Maps app I've seen for android?

 

Nice. The dev team is pretty responsive, so hopefully you at least get an answer from Han or one of the other developers in that thread.

 

I'm excited about mods mode but who knows what we'll really have access to. It certainly sounds like a challenge. This will be the first game I care enough about to try modding though, so I'm looking forward to it regardless. The other thing I've always wanted to make, which might be useful for mods, is a bit of a content manager for skins and campaigns and whatever else. But only so much time in the day.

 

And to answer your question, I make il2missionplanner.com. Don't look at it too closely, it's a bit of a bowl of spaghetti in places, but I have fun with it and it gets the job done. The awesome Android app is made by MAGNUM_PT. The tiles are also available and you're welcome to use my CDN if you build anything that uses the map, they're available here at tiles.il2missionplanner.com, e.g. https://tiles.il2missionplanner.com/moscow/4/4/4.png.

[DDoutel]

Nice. The dev team is pretty responsive, so hopefully you at least get an answer from Han or one of the other developers in that thread.

 

I'm excited about mods mode but who knows what we'll really have access to. It certainly sounds like a challenge. This will be the first game I care enough about to try modding though, so I'm looking forward to it regardless. The other thing I've always wanted to make, which might be useful for mods, is a bit of a content manager for skins and campaigns and whatever else. But only so much time in the day.

 

And to answer your question, I make il2missionplanner.com. Don't look at it too closely, it's a bit of a bowl of spaghetti in places, but I have fun with it and it gets the job done. The awesome Android app is made by MAGNUM_PT. The tiles are also available and you're welcome to use my CDN if you build anything that uses the map, they're available here at tiles.il2missionplanner.com, e.g. https://tiles.il2missionplanner.com/moscow/4/4/4.png.

 

Ah! I enjoy your work! It's smooth, responsive, has a well-thought out set of features, is easy to use and I've yet to have it crash my browser! That's saying something!

 

The content manager sounds like an interesting project to take on; I'll look forward to seeing what your vision turns into! Honestly, the last time I cared enough about a sim enough to do something for it, it was to replace the failed multiplayer engine in a pair of sims that were meant to work together, and succeeded. The whole thing turned into a can of worms; no good deed goes unpunished, as they say, and I haven't done anything of note for a community since. I'm past the point where I code for the pure love of it as in my younger days, so now I just play 'em!

 

This discussion has got me thinking though; don't know if you remember a programmer's tool back in the DOS days called SideKick; it was a programmer's editor that "popped up" in a window with a set of keystrokes, so you could edit, compile and run very quickly. I'm seeing a notification area type app that would pop up a map in a window over the sim's 3D window without disturbing it.

 

A very kind offer of your CDN, Gambler! I may have to ask you some questions about it! 

 

Anyway, great to make your acquaintance, and everyone else that's joined in here; good to see a lively and polite community!

[56RAF_Roblex]

 

 

In software we have something called the 90-90 rule, which states that the first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time... and with a low budget and a small and fickle fan base, these devs don't have 180% of the time like big studios. So they focus on the important stuff and sometimes bells and whistles must be sacrificed.

 

I also worked as a software engineer for several decades and I cannot help thinking that this map issue is neither 'Bells & Whistles they had no time or money to implement' nor one of the many 'simple' extras users ask for after release.  It looks more like a poor design decision. If they had realised the potential problem during the design phase and implemented the in-cockpit map more sensibly it may not have added much to the project timescale.    I also accept that you can't always foresee every future flaw in the design stage and hindsight is always 20/20 :-)

 

I will agree that things like drawing flight plans on the map while in the cockpit would be something they might have considered and agreed they did not have the time or budget to do but it is *possible* that allowing us to at  least draw lines on the map before spawning and see those lines on the in-cockpit map may have been feasible if done in the initial design.

 

Before anyone tries to rip me a new one for blasphemy, note my careful use of 'may' and 'possible'. :-)

Edited September 26, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex

[EAF19_Swoop]

Totally agree and I requested this as part of having a configurable hud thread in the Dev forum. Having a tick box to show the current mini map in expert settings when you display the Hud seem the simplest? A server admin can enable or disable this feature then.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31261-discussion-how-improve-hud/

[PatrickAWlson]

I use custom difficulty so I can get exactly what I want.  I do not like flying aids but I do like situal awareness aids.  

 

About what the developers should or should not do, as a software developer I love their model.  Most games are release, patch once or twice, done.  Maybe some DLC drops.  In this game they are constantly making incremental improvements, which is much more in line with modern software development and release concepts.  As a user, that model always gives me hope that the thing that I want might be on its way.

[Venturi]

In the road.

[TG-55Panthercules]

I would like to add my voice for a small map for navigation since I use VR Would be really useful not to loose control because I'd like to look at the map.

Perhaps I'd check that OVRDrop software aswell Then I could get my flight plan from one of the excellent third party maps on screen.

 

You really should check out OVRdrop - I've got it working with my Rift so it displays the map down in the cockpit where my legs/knee board would be (roughly), and it's really nice. Although I generally am able to get the map zoomed and adjusted exactly like I need it before the game starts, it is possible to interact with the map (to zoom and reposition) if needed during the mission. I usually only need to do that if I get really lost trying to get home.  Had a great PWCG mission earlier today and it made it so nice being able to check the map, determine that the target was coming up just after we crossed the second river up ahead, or that my home airfield was going to be in that large clearing up ahead just before the river, etc.  Check this thread for a good discussion of how to get it working the way you want:  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31005-ovrdrop-feasible-map/