New FM

[E69_geramos109]

That is highly depeneding on airspeed which makes totally sense. For example it's well documented that the Bf 109 needs to be trimed nose down to stay in a dive at high airspeeds (on the G series onwards the trim range was reduced so the pilot had to push the stick in order to dive straight even at full nose down trim).

 

Anyway, the 109 F is still better off ingame without it's habit to entirely lose elevator authority at 650+km/h and oscillation along the longitudinal axis that could only be countered with rudder.

Yes but the neutral behabeour is at 1.0 ata cruise speed. 

[E69_geramos109]

 

From minute 5

[Venturi]

That is highly depeneding on airspeed which makes totally sense. For example it's well documented that the Bf 109 needs to be trimed nose down to stay in a dive at high airspeeds (on the G series onwards the trim range was reduced so the pilot had to push the stick in order to dive straight even at full nose down trim). This was because at high dive speeds, the 109 had the tendency to actually convert from nose up with increasing speed, to increasing nose down with more speed. You can imagine then the consequences to the pilot, if he started the dive with full down trim. Yes, he could frantically move the stabilizer trim up. However, this takes some time, and the stick forces are so heavy... and meanwhile his speed is increasing... So I agree with you completely.

 

Anyway, the 109 F is still better off ingame without it's habit to entirely lose elevator authority at 650+km/h and oscillation along the longitudinal axis that could only be countered with rudder. It's definitely a formidable plane and if I had to pick the one aircraft to fly to win a fighter duel amongst the planes currently there, the 109G2 would be #1 or perhaps #2, behind the Fw190A5. Depending on my mood and how patient I was.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Venturi

[GridiroN]

 

That is highly depeneding on airspeed which makes totally sense. For example it's well documented that the Bf 109 needs to be trimed nose down to stay in a dive at high airspeeds (on the G series onwards the trim range was reduced so the pilot had to push the stick in order to dive straight even at full nose down trim). This was because at high dive speeds, the 109 had the tendency to actually convert from nose up with increasing speed, to increasing nose down with more speed. You can imagine then the consequences to the pilot, if he started the dive with full down trim. Yes, he could frantically move the stabilizer trim up. However, this takes some time, and the stick forces are so heavy... and meanwhile his speed is increasing... So I agree with you completely.

 

Anyway, the 109 F is still better off ingame without it's habit to entirely lose elevator authority at 650+km/h and oscillation along the longitudinal axis that could only be countered with rudder. It's definitely a formidable plane and if I had to pick the one aircraft to fly to win a fighter duel amongst the planes currently there, the 109G2 would be #1 or perhaps #2, behind the Fw190A5. Depending on my mood and how patient I was.

I'm curious why you'd prefer the A5 over the A3? I hear nothing nothing but negativity about the A5 as a dueler.

[Venturi]

It's got adjustable cowling flaps, and therefore is faster, which is the primary reason you would fly a Fw-190 (along with having the best integrated firepower in the game).

To me, the Fw190 is a "butcher bird" - it swoops, it kills. It does not dance although it has some capability.

[Yogiflight]

 

 

It's got adjustable cowling flaps, and therefore is faster, which is the primary reason you would fly a Fw-190 (along with having the best integrated firepower in the game).

Well, according to the specs, the A5 is a little slower, than the A3. I suppose, because it is heavier, and therefore a little less agile, too.

[indiaciki]

Did you watch this (about the Dora with lots of A3-A-6 talk) ? A3+ 190km/h touchdown min.

 

[Venturi]

Well, according to the specs, the A5 is a little slower, than the A3. I suppose, because it is heavier, and therefore a little less agile, too.

 

You may be right, I thought that the adjustable cowling slots increased it's speed in real life. I'm not sure in game as I haven't tried a comparison. In any case I don't think that there's probably much difference between the two if being flown right. FW190s are very cool birds, they were one of the first model airplanes I ever built as a kid. Definitely appreciate Tank's high speed radial engine design.

[L3Pl4K]

Update is a big improvement. Devs make great Job.

Sadly the dive acceleration is not touched. Aslo the high speed overreving  of the 109/190 is still existing.

[Jizzo]

You may be right, I thought that the adjustable cowling slots increased it's speed in real life. I'm not sure in game as I haven't tried a comparison. In any case I don't think that there's probably much difference between the two if being flown right. FW190s are very cool birds, they were one of the first model airplanes I ever built as a kid. Definitely appreciate Tank's high speed radial engine design.

The A5 is faster than the A3 the speeds in the discription are for fully open cowls.

[303_Kwiatek]

What with LA5 LAgg3 controls heaviness at high speed? Its has changed? What about roll rate? Most planes was corrected in these ( 109, Yak1) what about La5 and Lagg3?

[Yogiflight]

 

 

Jizzo' timestamp='1504336875' post='505476'] The A5 is faster than the A3 the speeds in the discription are for fully open cowls.

Did you test this, or where is this information from? It is not mentioned in the Specs.

[L3Pl4K]

 

 

What with LA5 LAgg3 controls heaviness at high speed? Its has changed? What about roll rate? Most planes was corrected in these ( 109, Yak1) what about La5 and Lagg3?

Do you have some historical information about this?

[Max_Damage]

MIG is still wobbly but maybe its appropriate for it?

[303_Kwiatek]

Do you have some historical information about this?

 

VVS pilots comments only. And roll rate was improved since LA5F airframe version ( modifications in airleons controls)  not early LA5.

 

I notice that in patch info most planes got reduction in control effectinves ( airleons at higher speeds)  but dont see such info about LA5 and Lagg3 which in previous version were very good rollers.

 

I suppose they didnt change anything here for LA5 and LAgg3. Its not good so..

Edited September 2, 2017 by 303_Kwiatek

[L3Pl4K]

 

 

VVS pilots comments only.

Can you share the comments?

[Dr_Molem]

VVS pilots comments only. And roll rate was improved since LA5F airframe version ( modifications in airleons controls)  not early LA5.

 

I notice that in patch info most planes got reduction in control effectinves ( airleons at higher speeds)  but dont see such info about LA5 and Lagg3 which in previous version were very good rollers.

 

I suppose they didnt change anything here for LA5 and LAgg3. Its not good so..

 

Stay patient, La-5FN is coming, and something tell me that LaGG-3 & La-5 will get reworked.

[Jizzo]

Did you test this, or where is this information from? It is not mentioned in the Specs.

Tested it myself.

 

The A5 with cowlings closed is about 20 kph faster than the A3 at 1.32 ATA.

Edited September 2, 2017 by [TWB]Jizzo

[Finkeren]

MIG is still wobbly but maybe its appropriate for it?

Yeah you feel its instability (which is accurate) much more clearly now compared to the other aircraft.

[Max_Damage]

Stay patient, La-5FN is coming, and something tell me that LaGG-3 & La-5 will get reworked.

I would love to see something like a lagg3 ser 35 or 66. Approriate for Kuban and Kursk.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Max_Damage

[Finkeren]

I would love to see something like a lagg3 ser 35 or 66. Approriate for Kuban and Kursk.

 

The s. 35 should be pretty "easy" to do (doesn't mean it'd not take resources). Most of the improvements added to the airframe from s. 29 to 35 are present in the La-5 s.8 that we have in game.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

I suppose they didnt change anything here for LA5 and LAgg3. Its not good so..

All FMs were revisitted across the board. The missing information about the Lavotchkin fighters may as well be just that since there certainly is a difference with their new FM.

 

In this case, as in most other cases, it's better to test stuff before jumping on conclusions.

[Blutaar]

In my opinion, the La5 and Lagg3 hasnt changed in there roll performance and also not in the sticktravel. The La5 still whobbles and i cant really tell if there is a huge diefference from before the patch besides the better stability through the rudder changes. Thats my conclusion after 2 days of testing all planes.

[3./JG15_Kampf]

The plane that won the most with the 2.012 was the La5. It boasts an excellent elevator authority even at high speeds, a good roller and now seems to maintain better energy. I fw190 fought against La 5, used scissors and upward aspiring, and La5 could not keep up. Now La5 does much better. Fw190 is very unstable at low speed

[Recon]

overall I'm very happy with the patch.

 

I have noticed taking off in the pe2 isn't nearly as easy though - takes a long runway to get the speed to lift off.  Feels too heavy to me really

[Tuesday]

I would love to watch the people who are crying about the 109 stabilizer speed to try and do what they are wanting in real life flying.

 

And then to try and do it while full stick back, of course...

 

Like I said in another thread - it's easy to see now who was abusing it before.

[Lusekofte]

overall I'm very happy with the patch.

 

I have noticed taking off in the pe2 isn't nearly as easy though - takes a long runway to get the speed to lift off.  Feels too heavy to me really

 

 

PE 2 was apparently a pig to fly, very heavy controls, easy stalls and a lot more. I suspect the controls is not hard enough. It is my favourite plane in this game.

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

Would like the Stabi is still on Zero not elsewhere don't know why they do this, now it is nose heavys as standart..

[Lusekofte]

Actually , I was expecting a lot more noise about FM changes benefiting some Russian planes and maybe less on the 109. I haven't flown it too much in the past, but tested it in qmb today. Now I understand the silence better, I was not aware it was such a stable gun platform. Excellent 

[E69_geramos109]

I would love to watch the people who are crying about the 109 stabilizer speed to try and do what they are wanting in real life flying.

 

And then to try and do it while full stick back, of course...

 

Like I said in another thread - it's easy to see now who was abusing it before.

The problem and the complains are not about the efectiveness or the time to operate the stab. The problem is that the neutral position on the stab is now wrong (+2 nose down when should be 0 for flying straight at cruise power) And that delay when you use it breaks completelly the use of that, has no sense only to disturb you.

 

The delay has no sense DEVS! Is difficult not to think on BIAS with that. Where is on the video you use to see the stab time that delay??? cmon the pilot stops turning and the weel is still doing it? Is retarded and is only on the 109 is clearly to break this plane. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by E69_geramos109

[BlitzPig_EL]

Is it so hard to reset the stab to where you want it?

 

Ever seen a photo of the trim wheel in a 109 cockpit?

 

I defy anyone to move it through it's entire range of travel in 6 seconds while the aircraft is at cruise speed, much less in combat, while still managing to fly the aircraft.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

No EL, get that reasonable explanation out of here. It's BIAS and BREAK.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Oh, OK, I'll try to remember from now on.

[GridiroN]

I agree with those who are saying the 109's stabilizer is fine. Heck, the devs even softened the blow by making it a little bit faster in the micro-patch, and there is no way a real pilot can move the wheel from 0 to 100 in seconds when being resisted by 500kph winds. 

 

That being said, some people like Geronemos do bring up a good point that while the 109's stabilizer is much less abusable, they haven't changed Russian trim wheels other than moving their default location. 

 

This should be changed too. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by GridiroN

[Guest deleted@83466]

I agree with those who are saying the 109's stabilizer is fine. Heck, the devs even softened the blow by making it a little bit faster in the micro-patch, and there is no way a real pilot can move the wheel from 0 to 100 in seconds when being resisted by 500kph winds. 

 

That being said, some people like Geronemos do bring up a good point that while the 109's stabilizer is much less abusable, they haven't changed Russian trim wheels other than moving their default location. 

 

This should be changed too. 

 

The developers notes say that on several Russian aircraft the traversal time of the trim tab was increased from 6 to 8 seconds, and that the effectiveness was decreased.

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

No EL, get that reasonable explanation out of here. It's BIAS and BREAK.

 

 

With currently 2 Degrees plus its far from Cruse Setting, but thx for your useful input at least you have something wrote down...

[unreasonable]

With currently 2 Degrees plus its far from Cruse Setting, but thx for your useful input at least you have something wrote down. Start any QMB mission with a 109 and the stab is set at +1   - just look down at the indicator.  

 

If you want to be taken at all seriously you have to be much more specific in your complaints.

 

On QMB start - air or ground - the 109 stab is set as follows:

 

E            +1.5

F1, F2    +2

G2. G4   +1

 

What is the source of your thumbnail?   I only have a manual for the G2, which states use +1 for take off, other wise gives no recommendations. So for the Gs, the game's setting is entirely reasonable. I cannot see a mention of the stab setting in the manual for the E at all.

I have been unable to find any manual for the Fs at all.

 

The design of the stab changed with each series.

 

If you think there is something wrong, please specify for which aircraft - not "the 109" - and give your source. A one line thumbnail that could come from anywhere is not going to convince anyone, (anyone who is not already into developer conspiracy theories, at any rate).

Edited September 3, 2017 by unreasonable

[9./JG27MAD-MM]

Was taken from the 109 F,G High Speed Trails with recommended Cruse Setting for +1 for the Stab, and CG is dependent on the external Load and remain Fuel landing start configuration

So makes not much sence with new Patch the Pilot need ages to trim somewhere, the big Zero on the Trim Wheel is from where you go depend on your actuall configuration flight state...

[thermoregulator]

I think 109´s are pretty well modelled now. I don´t think they are useless, as some say. To me, it feels more realistic (according to historical references) and it is still top fighter in game with precious handling qualities (although i think some russian planes are better than they were and are modelled  very optimistic, but thats not a big issue). I haven´t flown 109´s much before, but now I enloy them much more.

On the other hand, I think recent FM update hit too hard other planes - bf110 and Ju-88. Particullary Ju-88 is now brick in high speeds, although Ju-88 was known for it´s high speed handling qualites. According to Eric Brown for example, ailerons and  rudder stick forces were very low in the whole speed spectrum on Ju-88. Elevator forces were a bit higher, but automatic stabilizer helphed. In game Ju-88 is different. It is even more noticeable if you compare it to peshkas, which are mane maneuverable in high speed in this sim. When I exaggerate it, peshkas are more formidable fighters than bf110, taken into account their durability, insane berezins and handling (not to mention those gunners). Every bullet flying near bf110 set it on fire.

[unreasonable]

Was taken from the 109 F,G High Speed Trails with recommended Cruse Setting for +1 for the Stab, and CG is dependent on the external Load and remain Fuel landing start configuration

So makes not much sence with new Patch the Pilot need ages to trim somewhere, the big Zero on the Trim Wheel is from where you go depend on your actuall configuration flight state...

 

But the Gs start at +1. The Fs start at +2 - which is exactly as far from +1 as is zero!  If the Gs started at zero you would be just as far away from +1 with them as you are now in the Fs. 

 

Just set it to what you want before you take off - you know, like a pilot......