New FM

[216th_Jordan]

I can assure you the FM changes affected all AC, including the spitfire

 

I don't know about the stick forces but the FM of the spit is the same essentially (it's not listed under aircraft specific changes). AFAIK it never had the old FM. (there are also no global parameters connected to them AFAIK, this may be different for stickforces or so, not sure about that)

 

To the new FM:

La-5 was a tough roller and now can really play this advantage while many other planes lost their ability to roll fast (for example 109 rolled way too fast before). My beloved Mig-3 has also been hit severely by these changes, it was quite squirelly before but now you really have to watch out a lot to have none behind you as this thing rolls like a truck now The true winners of this patch are La-5 and Fw-190, they get the advantages now they should have. I think thats a good result.

 

All in all I love the new FM, it doesn't allow as many tricks as were possible before (very sharp manouvers, rudder to increase roll speed, the ability to point the nose quickly with it snapping back after), but the planes all behave so much nicer and it just feels so good to be able to hit things without dozens of hours of practice and highly decreased joystick sensitivity curves. I think this also comes to help new people, it was incredibly hard for them to not give up totally furstrated because they never hit something.

[Quax]

Snap rolls require transient lift loss on one wing yes? Difficult to do on a plane with effective high lift automatic slats, designed to prevent wing stall?

 

No. The snap occures faster than the slats came out. As the negative spin is harder (although there are no slats coming out), it seems to have more to do with the new forces created at the tail section. I have the feeling, that the force reduction of the elevator is a bit overdone:

 

10.83. Flight stick load along the pitch axis has been increased at low and medium flight speeds.

 

10.86. Pushing the flight stick forward abruptly is less likely to cause an inverted snap roll or reverse spin.

 

The inverted snap roll was easy to achieve (Hartmann escape). Other than that the FM change worked well. The sideslips are now realistic.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Quax

[Herne]

I don't know about the stick forces but the FM of the spit is the same essentially (it's not listed under aircraft specific changes). AFAIK it never had the old FM. (there are also no global parameters connected to them AFAIK, this may be different for stickforces or so, not sure about that)

 

To the new FM:

La-5 was a tough roller and now can really play this advantage while many other planes lost their ability to roll fast (for example 109 rolled way too fast before). My beloved Mig-3 has also been hit severely by these changes, it was quite squirelly before but now you really have to watch out a lot to have none behind you as this thing rolls like a truck now The true winners of this patch are La-5 and Fw-190, they get the advantages now they should have. I think thats a good result.

 

All in all I love the new FM, it doesn't allow as many tricks as were possible before (very sharp manouvers, rudder to increase roll speed, the ability to point the nose quickly with it snapping back after), but the planes all behave so much nicer and it just feels so good to be able to hit things without dozens of hours of practice and highly decreased joystick sensitivity curves. I think this also comes to help new people, it was incredibly hard for them to not give up totally furstrated because they never hit something.

 

Well I never adjusted sensitivity curves, I've always used default, and the differences were apparent to me straight away, in testing alternating between berloga, and the beta test. 

 

Before patch I had much more warning of the coming G stall, I could ride the buffet, and if she did stall you could reduce back pressure and prevent the spin. 

 

Since patch I get much less warning, and she will spin. Another thing I noticed is an over enthusiastic dive now results in a negative G spin which is interesting.

[Asgar]

I can assure you the FM changes affected all AC, including the spitfire

no...it had thew new FM already when it was released in the last patch

[F/JG300_Gruber]

I'm quite impressed with the improvement on ground handling. Now you can give the throttle a shot when kicking the rudder and it will effectively prevent most ground loops. 

I haven't tested all planes in flight but the few I tried are a real pleasure. It really feels like flying now.

[Venturi]

No. The snap occures faster than the slats came out. As the negative spin is harder (although there are no slats coming out), it seems to have more to do with the new forces created at the tail section. That doesn't make sense to me, are you saying that wing stall occurs before slats come out? A snap roll requires a wing to stall, that is why you must increase AoA before yawing to induce the snap roll. If the slats don't come out as readily in negative pitch increases in AoA, that is a different story...

[Guest deleted@50488]

Well,

 

after trying it with more care, I also am beginning to appreciate - really APPRECIATE! - this whole update   

[3./JG15_Kampf]

= 11 = herne, em 30 de agosto de 2017 - 09:11, disse: Eu acho muito mais fácil perder o controle em um spitfire e os yak's agora. LA 5 sentiu-se muito legal, e o i16 ainda precisa de um toque gentil, acho que sempre foi embora.

Desculpe, mas não houve alterações no Spitfire FM, pois nunca teve o FM antigo. Apenas mostra como metade dos comentários aqui são baseados na percepção e não nos fatos.

 I posted in some topic yesterday that I do not see changes listed for spitv, which proves my opinion and many players was right. Spitfire has always had the new FM

Edited August 30, 2017 by 3./JG15_Kampf

[Jason_Williams]

The Spit always had the new FM. We just didn't make a big deal about it.

 

Jason

[Finkeren]

The Spit always had the new FM. We just didn't make a big deal about it.

 

Jason

Most of us noticed

 

It's remarkable how much less the Spit sticks out from the crowd now compared to 2.011. When it first came out it was practically impossible for me to fight AI flown Spits with the Fw 190. Now it is much easier.

[Quax]

 

No. The snap occures faster than the slats came out. As the negative spin is harder (although there are no slats coming out), it seems to have more to do with the new forces created at the tail section. That doesn't make sense to me, are you saying that wing stall occurs before slats come out? A snap roll requires a wing to stall, that is why you must increase AoA before yawing to induce the snap roll. If the slats don't come out as readily in negative pitch increases in AoA, that is a different story...

 

 

A few more words about it: For a snap roll you would need to go above the force, that is set as the limit now. You would need that only for a fraction of a second. The human body can stand exessive g load for such a short time.

When BoS came out, there were no "max force limits" set. The result was, that misbehaviour on the stick (which a normal human being couldn´t stand) did lead to unrealistic videos, which have been used to discredit BoS.

It was not the fault of the FM (what quite a lot guys stated). On the other hand you could do positive and negative snap rolls, but if you did accidently keep the excessive deflection of the elevator too long, you did go into crazy spins. In RL this couldn´t have happened, as you could give this exessive force on the stick only for the very short time (very short hard push or pull above the force you could keep).

 

Now strict force limits have been implemented. You can´t deflect the surface further, after reaching this force. This prevents unrealistic misbehaviour on the stick and therefore unrealistic vids. On the downside, you can´t deflect the surface enough, even for the fraction of a second, necessary to do the snap rolls. At low speeds they still work for the positiv snap (tested only the 109 so far), but negativ don´t work at all. Problem is, you can´t have both worlds. The only thinkable way would be, to allow this exessive deflection only for this short time. But the implemetation would be eventually impossible or too much effort. I guess we have to live with it.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Quax

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Question is if that limitations has its boundaries of airflow force which can not be overcome by physical human force even in very short time.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well, the Bf109 is most assuredly NOT an Extra 300.  It's tiny, cramped cockpit coupled with a short joystick did make high speed maneuvers quite difficult simply because of the amount of strength necessary to move the controls could not be applied because of the confines of the cockpit and the short lever arm of the stick.

 

This has been one of the ongoing problems with modeling the 109, and other aircraft as well, in sims, as we have no issues going to full stick deflection in our comfortable home computer areas with our toy controllers (even the highest end ones), regardless of the speed of our pixel plane.

[Pharoah]

Just tried out the JU88 on a bombing run on the Finnish war server. A few things I noticed:

 

1. The JU88 on 50% fuel and 2 1000kg bombs climbs at almost 1000m/min @300kmph. Thats at 85% throttle/rpm. wow. Really? 

2. in the bomb sight when i shifted the a/c left or right, the aircraft actually banked rather than yaw'ed. That right? it used to only be limited to yaw not a full bank. And the bank feels like you're flying a fighter. 

3. landing was diff. A/c was really light unlike pre patch where it felt like a heavy bomber (even though it was lighter minus bomb load and a bit of fuel). 

 

overall, the JU88 almost handles like a fighter now. Is that how its supposed to be? Felt weird. Haven't tried the H111 yet. 

[216th_Jordan]

Just tried out the JU88 on a bombing run on the Finnish war server. A few things I noticed:

 

1. The JU88 on 50% fuel and 2 1000kg bombs climbs at almost 1000m/min @300kmph. Thats at 85% throttle/rpm. wow. Really?

2. in the bomb sight when i shifted the a/c left or right, the aircraft actually banked rather than yaw'ed. That right? it used to only be limited to yaw not a full bank. And the bank feels like you're flying a fighter.

3. landing was diff. A/c was really light unlike pre patch where it felt like a heavy bomber (even though it was lighter minus bomb load and a bit of fuel).

 

overall, the JU88 almost handles like a fighter now. Is that how its supposed to be? Felt weird. Haven't tried the H111 yet.

Center of Gravity is your keyword. If that is closer to the Center of Lift the plane will be a lot more agile. Its the same in the Pe-2 with standard 6x100 loadout.

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

After a few tests last night with the comrades of my squad,..I think that horizontal stabilizer trim control of the the Bf-109, is completely broken in the new FM.
 
The elevator neutral trim of the Bf-109 have been eliminated, and now the aircraft start in flight with elevator trim set in +1º (one degree nose-down) and this is erroneous acording to technical data, and real aircraft manuals, etc. Futhermore, the neutral trim is best trim configuration for medium and low speed maneuvering in the real bf-109. The neutral trim misconfiguration, affect very much to the flight behavior and maneuverability.

I think that developers must listen again our video interview to Volker Bau, about the Bf-109 G flight behavior. Especially minute 5:00 of the video about the elevator trim control.
https://youtu.be/EDMzZOOIFro?t=4m57s

After many discussions years ago in this forum, i thought that finally, the developers had understand how a trimmable horizontal stabilicer works, because the Bf-109G elevator neutral trim work properly in game, at 1.0ATA/2000 rpm like the real Bf-109G4.
Now we step back.. I hope this bug will fixed properlly soon. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

[CIA_Yankee_]

Most of us noticed

 

It's remarkable how much less the Spit sticks out from the crowd now compared to 2.011. When it first came out it was practically impossible for me to fight AI flown Spits with the Fw 190. Now it is much easier.

 

It still generally feels "gentler" and more stable than most other A/Cs now, even after the change. Which is just about how it should be. 

 

When jumping from the Spit to the Yak-1B, you can definitely tell the difference in stability.

[Jade_Monkey]

The Spit always had the new FM. We just didn't make a big deal about it.

 

Jason

Thanks for confirming, there were a lot of misconceptions about this.

 

It makes no sense to release a brand new plane with the wrong FM when the FM overhaul project was near completion.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

After a few tests last night with the comrades of my squad,..I think that horizontal stabilizer trim control of the the Bf-109, is completely broken in the new FM.

 

The elevator neutral trim of the Bf-109 have been eliminated, and now the aircraft start in flight with elevator trim set in +1º (one degree nose-down) and this is erroneous acording to technical data, and real aircraft manuals, etc.

 

I think that developers must listen again our video interview to Volker Bau, about the Bf-109 G flight behavior. Especially minute 5:00 of the video about the elevator trim control.

https://youtu.be/EDMzZOOIFro?t=4m57s

 

After many discussions years ago in this forum, i thought that finally, the developers had understand how a trimmable horizontal stabilicer works, because the Bf-109G elevator neutral trim work properly in game, at 1.0ATA/2000 rpm like the real Bf-109G4.

Now we step back.. I hope this bug will fixed properlly soon. 

Sorry, I don't understand what you intend to say.

 

I just checked, if you put the stabilizer to 0°, the airplane flies straight at 1.0 ata in cruise. So what is the issue?

 

 

Make sure you ignore the %-based indicator in the hud. Look down in your cockpit to the left instead, put this to 0° during flight.

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

Sorry, I don't understand what you intend to say.

 

I just checked, if you put the stabilizer to 0°, the airplane flies straight at 1.0 ata in cruise. So what is the issue?

 

 

Make sure you ignore the %-based indicator in the hud. Look down in your cockpit to the left instead, put this to 0° during flight.

We have tested yesterday at night,  and elevator trim have been changed in the Bf-109 with the 2.012 patch.

Have they deliver another patch today?

Edited August 31, 2017 by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

[SCG_OpticFlow]

Hi Guys,

 

have you tried the Bf-109 E7 with the new model?

 

Now even in straight line I have to constantly re-trim the horizontal stabilizer and the center on the pitch axis changes more with speed than before which makes it very hard for me to strafe ground targets (because it picks up speed and center moves away)...

 

Also holding the trim button for few seconds gets it stuck and trim rolls all the way to the end which makes my landing approach much slower now until i get the proper trim in baby steps.

[JG27*Kornezov]

Hi Guys,

 

have you tried the Bf-109 E7 with the new model?

 

Now even in straight line I have to constantly re-trim the horizontal stabilizer and the center on the pitch axis changes more with speed than before which makes it very hard for me to strafe ground targets (because it picks up speed and center moves away)...

 

Also holding the trim button for few seconds gets it stuck and trim rolls all the way to the end which makes my landing approach much slower now until i get the proper trim in baby steps.

From a practical point for landing I move the stabilizer all the way tail heavy, and I do not bother to trim at that moment.

 

The trim control is undeniably weird in 109. I predicted one patch ago that based on what they announced the 109 is going to be broken in one way or another. I got a lot of hateful comments which I find funny. I leave the discussion to more knowledgeable forum members. But if the 109 remained with the crisp control response and improved rudder from the current patch that would make it an uber plane (as it was in real life ).

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[Asgar]

"broken" 

[Lusekofte]

If you read and listen to interviews of test pilots , one of them Brown the BF 109 is not one of the planes you can´t just jump into and be a ace, but once you got the hung of it there where no limits what you could do with it. So if it has become like that , they probably did it right. However I would say I love what they did with the P 40, I flown it a couple of times in MP and some more offline. It performed well and it give a good feeling and not once I blown my engine. I like to say well done, now I can enjoy it as it deserve. There is no plane in this sim that can do so much as this one can. Fantastic fighter with light weight and capable of enormous arsenal of weaponry and still flying

Edited August 31, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[19//Moach]

the 109 was never an "uber plane" in real life - it was a good energy fighter, but it definitely was not how folks got used to in the game up until now

 

 

before the patch, 109s could do things that defied physics - now that's gone, and everything finally makes sense again

 

 

actually, the unfair advantage it had before was so massive that many players became quite simply spoiled by it - and now they must face the fact that they had been basically cheating all this time, and accept that they are not really the king of the sky anymore

 

 

 

boom and zoom is the name of the game, and the 109 is pretty damn good at that... but if you wanna go for a dancing competition, you really wanna be in a spitfire instead

before the patch, 109s could do things that defied physics - now that's gone, and everything finally makes sense again

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by 19//Moach

[SCG_OpticFlow]

From a practical point for landing I move the stabilizer all the way tail heavy, and I do not bother to trim at that moment.

 

The trim control is undeniably weird in 109. I predicted one patch ago that based on what they announced the 109 is going to be broken in one way or another. I got a lot of hateful comments which I find funny. I leave the discussion to more knowledgeable forum members. But if the 109 remained with the crisp control response and improved rudder from the current patch that would make it an uber plane (as it was in real life ).

 

 

 

 

There is something wrong with the pitch axis, I can't keep the sights even on a stationary target, its much worse than the previous wobble. And not only the Messerschmidt, the same issue is on the FW-190 too. Like the plane doesn't want to keep stable but amplifies your inputs and you constantly over-correct. I'm using 50% curve on both axis, maybe I should increase it...

[Finkeren]

why is the 109trim so slow ? did the devs have some "sekrit documint" ? XD

Actually Han described in the DD where he listed all the FM changes, that they made the change to the Bf 109 trim to better reflect video evidence of a real Bf 109 flying, showing the time it actually took the pilot to turn the trim wheel. 

[Venturi]

It helps when you can actually watch a pilot doing the thing that's being modeled.

[Blutaar]

the 109 was never an "uber plane" in real life - it was a good energy fighter, but it definitely was not how folks got used to in the game up until now

 

 

before the patch, 109s could do things that defied physics - now that's gone, and everything finally makes sense again

 

 

actually, the unfair advantage it had before was so massive that many players became quite simply spoiled by it - and now they must face the fact that they had been basically cheating all this time, and accept that they are not really the king of the sky anymore

 

 

 

boom and zoom is the name of the game, and the 109 is pretty damn good at that... but if you wanna go for a dancing competition, you really wanna be in a spitfire instead

before the patch, 109s could do things that defied physics - now that's gone, and everything finally makes sense again

 

Do you have an example for your claim "109s could do things that defied physics"? I really dont want to be that guy but the 109 has nothing left besides the good climbrate that its known for and that was allways the reason for the "Uberness" of this plane, this has not changed. Im glad that the whobble is a bit less of a problem now and the stability really helps but the stiff elevator ist just overdone in my opinion especially at lower speeds compared to other planes. Has anyone tried to blackout in the 109 yet? I dont talk about rollrate!

 

Im not a 109 jockey btw, just a 190 guy and what i find a bit strange is the difference in sticktravel compared to most other planes. If the Spit is what the defs think how light stickforces should translate into the game, why do we need the whole sticktravel in the 190? Even at full defelction at higher speeds she feels a bit sluggish.

 

Besides that, i really like the patch, much more stable planes and the P40 is awesome, its flayable now. Even the Mig3 feels a lot better besides the heavy elevator like in he 109, thumbs up from me.

[GridiroN]

 

Do you have an example for your claim "109s could do things that defied physics"? I really dont want to be that guy but the 109 has nothing left besides the good climbrate that its known for and that was allways the reason for the "Uberness" of this plane, this has not changed. Im glad that the whobble is a bit less of a problem now and the stability really helps but the stiff elevator ist just overdone in my opinion especially at lower speeds compared to other planes. Has anyone tried to blackout in the 109 yet? I dont talk about rollrate!

 

Im not a 109 jockey btw, just a 190 guy and what i find a bit strange is the difference in sticktravel compared to most other planes. If the Spit is what the defs think how light stickforces should translate into the game, why do we need the whole sticktravel in the 190? Even at full defelction at higher speeds she feels a bit sluggish.

 

Besides that, i really like the patch, much more stable planes and the P40 is awesome, its flayable now. Even the Mig3 feels a lot better besides the heavy elevator like in he 109, thumbs up from me.

The 109 is a long, skinny plane with a relatively small tail section and thin wings. Im not an aeronautical engineer but there is no reason to believe it should have been a fantastic turn fighter as it previously was (it outturned Russ planes pretty easily) or that it's control surfaces should have been as effective as they were.

 

I've heard reports from American pilot's and what not that they knew the 109 in high energy states couldn't turn very well and they'd use his to their advantage. Previously I never felt this was true. The 109 was turning and rolling just as well as anything else. I actually felt it rolled better than the FW in some cases.

 

I was flying yesterday in a MiG and I was able to dodge 3 109s bullying from on high me with simple barrel rolls. Before, even with a higher energy state, they'd still turn inside me.

 

All in all, I don't see the fuss. The 109 is still a good plane, it's just not as Uber as it used to be and at least on WoL the new FM isn't stopping anyone from scoreboard domination who wasn't ready scoreboard dominating.

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

"broken" 

Yes it was broken. ...why Han deliver a new patch today?

 

Hello everybody,

 

We were closely monitoring the forums for the last two days and corrected several issues that could be fixed quickly. The hotfix 2.012 brings the following changes:

 ...

3. Adjustable stabilizer buttons control delay minimized;

...

Edited August 31, 2017 by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

[E69_geramos109]

The previous 109 was too good rolling and it had even more instant turn at hight speeds than the foke. What i can't understand is why they changed the trim, i mean not the time, the neutral position. Now is set up in +1 looking the indicator. This position ahould be nose down but now if you set up the trim in 0 (neutral) the plane behabes like nose up all the time.

 

Also i have to see how speeds affects red planes because now will be so diffcult even more to hit yaks shaking on the air pulling the stick like monkeys up and down.

That manouver has become the most effective evasive action against 109s on the previous paths.

before the patch, 109s could do things that defied physics - now that's gone, and everything finally makes sense again

 

 

 

Agree but nothing compared with the suposed overweighted lagg3s pulling the nose up as copters after making a stall just to keep the control of the plane under 100kmh to aim you from 1k with the uber trim and uber flaps

Lets see if they fix that also

Edited September 1, 2017 by E69_geramos109

[unreasonable]

After a few tests last night with the comrades of my squad,..I think that horizontal stabilizer trim control of the the Bf-109, is completely broken in the new FM.

 

The elevator neutral trim of the Bf-109 have been eliminated, and now the aircraft start in flight with elevator trim set in +1º (one degree nose-down) and this is erroneous acording to technical data, and real aircraft manuals, etc. <snip>

 

My copy of the G2 manual says, under the Preparing for Take-off section:

 

19) The horizontal stabiliser must be set to the +1 position (especially on night flights).

 

Presumably they need to have a single setting for all mission starts and have gone with the take off setting. Seems reasonable to me.

[Venturi]

An oldie, but a goodie....

 

Flight condition was negative trim. It was required to use almost full negative trim for level flight at trim set speed, and most pilots flew with a slight trim up so they could start a dive and not lose control of the plane.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Venturi

[Jizzo]

My copy of the G2 manual says, under the Preparing for Take-off section:

 

19) The horizontal stabiliser must be set to the +1 position (especially on night flights).

 

Presumably they need to have a single setting for all mission starts and have gone with the take off setting. Seems reasonable to me.

Exactly this and i remember i read  somewhere that in all german flight tests on the Gustav's and onwards it is required to have full nose down trim to even achieve maximum flight speed.

[III/JG52_Llucmk]

the 109 was never an "uber plane" in real life - it was a good energy fighter, but it definitely was not how folks got used to in the game up until now

 

 

before the patch, 109s could do things that defied physics - now that's gone, and everything finally makes sense again

 

 

actually, the unfair advantage it had before was so massive that many players became quite simply spoiled by it - and now they must face the fact that they had been basically cheating all this time, and accept that they are not really the king of the sky anymore

 

 

 

boom and zoom is the name of the game, and the 109 is pretty damn good at that... but if you wanna go for a dancing competition, you really wanna be in a spitfire instead

before the patch, 109s could do things that defied physics - now that's gone, and everything finally makes sense again

I must disagree with you. It is true that the bf-109 in general had some proper problems related to the old FM. As my squad companions said, it's not really about the "Whining" of that now the plane isn't able to fight. They are still able to fly, in fact... They seem more stable to me (SPECIALLY AFTER REMOVING THAT BIG NEGATIVE G STALL). The thing is now the Horizontal Stabilizer it's kinda... "broken"(?). I do not have so much experience in tech stats or knowledge about bf-109 models as other members from JG are, but I do know how to fly the plane, and it just doesn't feel right to have a trim that doesn't fly straight at 2 // 2.5  // -80 //-90% horizontal stabilizer settings (BF-109 F4). It's not about how the BF-109 can out turn or can't maneuver more than other planes. It's just about settings that in real life were there to make the plane more comfortable to fly. The horizontal Stabilizer it's not a cheat control that Bf-109 had, just to make things clear. 

 

It seems that people are ignoring the video that the III/JG52 did to support and try to correct devs or at least discuss why they are taking these decisions not appealing to our arguments, but just ignoring them. 

 

I'll still fly planes, not only German ones, and as passionate combat simmer, I'll look forward to a fix or at least explanation from IL-2 Dev Team to these new changes. I hope everything ends working out.

 

See you in the skies.

Edited September 1, 2017 by III/JG52_Llucmk

[Guest deleted@50488]

I must disagree with you. It is true that the bf-109 in general had some proper problems related to the old FM. As my squad companions said, it's not really about the "Whining" of that now the plane isn't able to fight. They are still able to fly, in fact... They seem more stable to me (SPECIALLY AFTER REMOVING THAT BIG NEGATIVE G STALL). The thing is now the Horizontal Stabilizer it's kinda... "broken"(?). I do not have so much experience in tech stats or knowledge about bf-109 models as other members from JG are, but I do know how to fly the plane, and it just doesn't feel right to have a trim that doesn't fly straight at 2 // 2.5  // -80 //-90% horizontal stabilizer settings (BF-109 F4). It's not about how the BF-109 can out turn or can't maneuver more than other planes. It's just about settings that in real life were there to make the plane more comfortable to fly. The horizontal Stabilizer it's not a cheat control that Bf-109 had, just to make things clear. 

 

It seems that people are ignoring the video that the III/JG52 did to support and try to correct devs or at least discuss why they are taking these decisions not appealing to our arguments, but just ignoring them. 

 

I'll still fly planes, not only German ones, and as passionate combat simmer, I'll look forward to a fix or at least explanation from IL-2 Dev Team to these new changes. I hope everything ends working out.

 

See you in the skies.

 

You "fly" simulated aircraft - which has nothing to do with rw experience....

I fly real aircraft for decades, and I assume I know nothing about these ww2 machines that can put me in the position to express, with confidence, what I think is right or wrongly modelled...

 

I try hard to read and find all sorts of documentation, and even ask rw pilots, like Klaus Plaza who kindly replied to many of my questions about the 109s he flew.

 

I believe that compared to the other flight simulator I use ( ww2 modules ) the 109s in IL-2 are "shipped" with the "perfect" ground adjusted trim tabs. They're set by "ground crew" and really help you controlling the aircraft that along a considerable spectrum of speeds / AoAs / power settings asks for permanent control input ( stick and rudder ), just like the real thing...

 

What I feel is that it now exhibits what I believe to be a more realistic sideslip indication from the turn coordinator "ball"... I haven't yet been able to verify that this wider displacements are really indicative of noticeable sideslip when you look at the aircraft from an F4 view, or focus on some reference point in the far distance / horizon, and use power or stick changes to create that sideslip...

 

Regarding pitch trim, there is still a noticeable difference between the 109 models in IL2 and the one in the other game I play. The last almost always requires fwd stick input to fly at pretty much all speeds and power settings. In IL2 we can trim it for almost "hands-off" within a considerable range. Which one is the most realistic I really can't say, starting with the fact that different 109 models are present on both sims, but overall I would say that those modelled in IL2 behave plausibly.

 

Yes, we now have to ( again, because it used to be like this when the first 109 was initially released ) be careful with setting the pitch trim before entering a dive, or we will run out of elevator to recover.

 

The modelling of control forces, specially for a simmer like me without a FF controller is also welcomed in this 2.012 release. I really like the way the various fighters react now and the visible "cut" in virtual control deflection for a given amount of game controller deflection depending on dynamic pressure / Gs...

 

So, I like pretty much everything about this patch with the exception of:

 

- control surface ( tail ) still becoming alive and effective too soon on ground, at taxi speeds / power settings

- prop effects being too effective on ground, all aircraft starting to veer left / right ( depending on CW or CCW prop ) at taxi power settings or idle ....

[III/JG52_Llucmk]

You "fly" simulated aircraft - which has nothing to do with rw experience....

I fly real aircraft for decades, and I assume I know nothing about these ww2 machines that can put me in the position to express, with confidence, what I think is right or wrongly modelled...

 

I try hard to read and find all sorts of documentation, and even ask rw pilots, like Klaus Plaza who kindly replied to many of my questions about the 109s he flew.

 

I believe that compared to the other flight simulator I use ( ww2 modules ) the 109s in IL-2 are "shipped" with the "perfect" ground adjusted trim tabs. They're set by "ground crew" and really help you controlling the aircraft that along a considerable spectrum of speeds / AoAs / power settings asks for permanent control input ( stick and rudder ), just like the real thing...

 

What I feel is that it now exhibits what I believe to be a more realistic sideslip indication from the turn coordinator "ball"... I haven't yet been able to verify that this wider displacements are really indicative of noticeable sideslip when you look at the aircraft from an F4 view, or focus on some reference point in the far distance / horizon, and use power or stick changes to create that sideslip...

 

Regarding pitch trim, there is still a noticeable difference between the 109 models in IL2 and the one in the other game I play. The last almost always requires fwd stick input to fly at pretty much all speeds and power settings. In IL2 we can trim it for almost "hands-off" within a considerable range. Which one is the most realistic I really can't say, starting with the fact that different 109 models are present on both sims, but overall I would say that those modelled in IL2 behave plausibly.

 

Yes, we now have to ( again, because it used to be like this when the first 109 was initially released ) be careful with setting the pitch trim before entering a dive, or we will run out of elevator to recover.

 

The modelling of control forces, specially for a simmer like me without a FF controller is also welcomed in this 2.012 release. I really like the way the various fighters react now and the visible "cut" in virtual control deflection for a given amount of game controller deflection depending on dynamic pressure / Gs...

 

So, I like pretty much everything about this patch with the exception of:

 

- control surface ( tail ) still becoming alive and effective too soon on ground, at taxi speeds / power settings

- prop effects being too effective on ground, all aircraft starting to veer left / right ( depending on CW or CCW prop ) at taxi power settings or idle ....

 

You're right, I don't have any real experience in real War Planes, yet. I do not consider any sim the most reliable. As I've said, I'm not that experienced in terms of knowledge about these WW2 planes as other squadmates do. I know I can rely in some documentation we share among us and not only that, discuss and compare. It is true that most of the documentation I've seen so far, relates to a horizontal trim that's does not coincide with the in-game feelings that both Sims we use to fly. You see, I'm not here to whine about how the Bf-109 is not a space ship, I just don't see that these changes seems really satisfactory for most of people, at least I'm not the only one who has noticed this... 

 

Changing the Horizontal Stabilizer setting and I'm not talking about wheel speed handling or effectiveness, just the setting in which the plane behaves at certain speeds and engine settings.

 

I'm a very open mind person, and I can make decisions by my own. If this change seems to be correct by Devs but people disagree about it, at least an explanation with detailed info about this would be ok. If it seems legit, no problem. If not, something will have to be done about it.

[E69_geramos109]

If the devs say where they take the data to put the trim setup acording with the neutral position will be easyer for us to discuss because there is even an interview with a 109 pilot talking exactly about how the 109 flies straight in 0 trim position

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

If the devs say where they take the data to put the trim setup acording with the neutral position will be easyer for us to discuss because there is even an interview with a 109 pilot talking exactly about how the 109 flies straight in 0 trim position

That is highly depeneding on airspeed which makes totally sense. For example it's well documented that the Bf 109 needs to be trimed nose down to stay in a dive at high airspeeds (on the G series onwards the trim range was reduced so the pilot had to push the stick in order to dive straight even at full nose down trim).

 

Anyway, the 109 F is still better off ingame without it's habit to entirely lose elevator authority at 650+km/h and oscillation along the longitudinal axis that could only be countered with rudder.

Edited September 1, 2017 by 6./ZG26_5tuka