FW 190A3-5 Weapons in BoS

[MrNoice]

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Edited September 2, 2017 by MrFies

[Asgar]

what difference does it make? 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Slowly getting the reputation of a troll.....

[CUJO_1970]

It's not a big deal at all, but I actually agree.

 

It should be an option to remove them, (many pilots did) not to add them.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I'm guessing the logic is that server-side restrictions can keep the 190 from using its default armament, but I don't think that has ever really happened so it goes a little into pedantry, even if harmless pedantry.

 

EDIT: Whoops, took too long.

Edited August 29, 2017 by 216th_Lucas_From_Hell

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Pedantry is by definition acute attention to detail, often correct, but to an excessive point.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I recommend you get the manuals, field and manufacturer materials which list the default armament options and (if that's the case) the weapons modification code attached to the removal of additonal wing cannons, withn references to the relevant pages, and post it here within the requested format: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/12262-armament-and-equipment/page-1

 

That way they can look into it and make any necessary changes, time allowing, should the findings be correct

[Irgendjemand]

Actually i like that its standard without. 2x 20mm is plenty and also the plane actually feels much more sluggish with 4x 20mm. Also the outer wingcannons have not really much ammo.
 

[707shap_Srbin]

nope I just asked why it isnt like many sources telling me it should be... no troll and no pedantry... I mean why not change it if its easy to fix and historical correct ?

Because by default, Fw190A-5 got only 2 MG151/20, built in most quantities. Fw190A-5 with two additional MG-FF's were considered as a heavy variant, and served mainly on Western front, where they had to meet 4-motors.

 

On eastern front, most Fw190A-5's had 2 MG151/20's. Even more, many aces, who had A-5 with 4 20mm guns on Eastern front, preferred to delete outer guns. Nowotny, for example. Or Major von Bonin:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by I./ZG1_Panzerbar

[Asgar]

Actually i like that its standard without. 2x 20mm is plenty and also the plane actually feels much more sluggish with 4x 20mm. Also the outer wingcannons have not really much ammo.

 

say what? 360 rounds total that's enought to kill 10 planes

[CUJO_1970]

It's just not that big of a deal, really.

 

The only time it's a bit annoying is when joining a server and you have to go in to settings and add the outer cannons...but even then it's as easy as checking the box with a single mouse click.

[CUJO_1970]

Because by default, Fw190A-5 got only 2 MG151/20, built in most quantities. Fw190A-5 with two additional MG-FF's were considered as a heavy variant, and served mainly on Western front, where they had to meet 4-motors.

 

On eastern front, most Fw190A-5's had 2 MG151/20's. Even more, many aces, who had A-5 with 4 20mm guns on Eastern front, preferred to delete outer guns. Nowotny, for example. Or Major von Bonin:

 

Even on Western Front - Donald Caldwell writes about JG/26 that at least some pilots flew without them, one new pilot asking why he didn't have the outer cannons installed was told "you don't need them"

 

However - it is my understanding that fighters (no bomb rack) were shipped from factory with the outer guns installed.

[707shap_Srbin]

However - it is my understanding that fighters (no bomb rack) were shipped from factory with the outer guns installed.

Wrong.

Fighters shipped out of factories mainly with 2 MG151/20's. Some A-5's, were shipped with 4 20mm guns for Western front.

Fighter-bombers, recooners were shipped with 2 MG151/20's.

Edited August 29, 2017 by I./ZG1_Panzerbar

[Asgar]

Wrong.

Fighters shipped out of factories mainly with 2 MG151/20's. Some A-5's, were shipped with 4 MG151/20's for Western front.

Fighter-bombers, recooners were shipped with 2 MG151/20's.

i think you're mixing some thinks up there. A5 standard armament is 2 MG 151/20 and 2 MG FF/M the A6 had 4 MG 151/20 standard.

[707shap_Srbin]

Yes, meaned 4 x 20mm guns, typed 4 x MG151/20's Corrected.

[Wulf]

what difference does it make? 

 

 

Well, if the overall performance of  FW 190 was measured, by the Germans, using an air frame fitted-out with 4 cannons rather than 2, then it really does "make a difference" doesn't it.   It means which ever way you look at it, we get less performance - assuming we're using German data for the FM.  

[Jaws2002]

Well, if the overall performance of  FW 190 was measured, by the Germans, using an air frame fitted-out with 4 cannons rather than 2, then it really does "make a difference" doesn't it.   It means which ever way you look at it, we get less performance - assuming we're using German data for the FM.  

 

 

Edit.

I was wrong. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Jaws2002

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Not quite how it works.

[Guest deleted@30725]

This is the problem. The flight model of the default plane (two cannons) is made after test results done with four cannons equipped planes.

 

Any proof to backup this claim?

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Any proof to counterproof that claim?

 

The devs might want to check it out. They will decide on their own anyway. They can drop a comment regarding that, a simple "we used it to make the 4 cannon FM based on the data we had, and then buffed the 2 cannon FM" would be enough. Or they adjust it a bit, in case he was right.

Edited August 29, 2017 by 1CAG_Fenris_Wolf

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Not trying to be rude but you folks honestly think these guys can model the peculiarities of minor details like the addition of radio navigation gear in most Soviet planes and the differences between the same aircraft with different machine guns added but can't figure out how one specic aircraft flies with and without two guns when the 109, MiG-3, I-16, 202 and Il-2 all have the behaviour of different wing weapons correctly modelled? They're not idiots, you know.

[Wulf]

This all boils down to what the German standard was regarding the 190 and whether 'that' standard was used for the in-game modeling.  If the German standard was 4 cannons, and their published data for the aircraft was based on that, then it becomes complicated in terms of perceptions if the in-game 'standard' has just 2 cannons.  Of course, the German data may well be based on the 2 cannon version and if that's the case everything is fine.   However, It seems unlikely to me that the factory would have been permitted to 'cook the books' by selling the aircraft to the Air Ministry on the basis of what a stripped-out version could deliver, rather than the operational version. The 190 was first employed along the Channel Front.   As far as I'm aware it was delivered with 4 cannons installed.  If that is indeed the case, than that is the standard, unless of course, the data says otherwise. 

[CUJO_1970]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a5.html

 

5 tests here (among others) are done with 4 cannon loadouts for A-5. Top speeds range from 348-352 mph on the deck in this configuration. (have not tested in 2.012)

 

I'd be interested in seeing the document that shows FW190A-5 fighters (no bomb rack) were typically shipped without outer cannons as I have not seen it before.

[LukeFF]

[LukeFF]

 

 

but in il2 BoS where the 151/20 is not that good

 

 

It is plenty good.

[707shap_Srbin]

01.jpg

02.jpg

Exellent, perfect, thank You very much.

That explains all to Topicstarter.

[StG2_Manfred]

Exellent, perfect, thank You very much.

That explains all to Topicstarter.

 

Really? Why?

 

Edit: Was asking, because here is the A5 mentioned. But found it:

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-a3-datasheet-29-11-42.jpg

 

It is mentioned there that they flew without the outer cannons and the machine had a weight of 3850 kg.

Edited August 30, 2017 by StG2_Manfred

[707shap_Srbin]

Fw190A-5

Bewaffnung

Rumpf: 2 x MG-17

Flugelwurzel: 2 MG151

Aussenflugel: 2 x MG-FF/M (Rustsatz)

[JG4_dingsda]

What about the A3 then? I think this is a leftover of the awful "unlock"-thingy. (--> Unlock moooah guns)

Edited August 30, 2017 by JG4_dingsda

[707shap_Srbin]

 

 

and I know in realife you dont need 4cannons unless you are fighting bombers but in il2 BoS where the 151/20 is not that good you could need them

 

Some WWII fighter pilots said: if You are good shooter, 1 cannon will be enough for You. If You are bad shooter, even 4 cannons will not help You. 

[Yogiflight]

The weapon user manual of the A2 also calls the MG FF/M 'Rüstsatz'. So I guess they were more an additional arming in all versions, equipped with the  MG FFs. However the fighter versions with MG151/20 in the outer wings, were always equipped with four 20mm guns (like Luke's document shows for the A6).

[Asgar]

Rüstsätze are delivered out of factory, usually pre-installed, but can be easily removed to adapt to the situation at hand.

[Irgendjemand]

say what? 360 rounds total that's enought to kill 10 planes

 

I am not sure on the A5 thou but with the A3 the outer cannons have 80 per gun right?

And thats not very much compared to what the inner guns have.

[Jizzo]

I am not sure on the A5 thou but with the A3 the outer cannons have 80 per gun right?

And thats not very much compared to what the inner guns have.

60 or 90 drums for the ff/m's same on the A5.

Edited August 30, 2017 by [TWB]Jizzo

[707shap_Srbin]

Come'on man. Tonns of videos from online battles, with YaK/LaGG/La/Il-2 killed with just 1 MG151/20 of Bf109....

 

It is not a matter of gun, it is a matter of practice.

[Yogiflight]

I never use all four guns for fighters, only for the big aircrafts.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

A short little video showing a Yak-1b (or Yak-9) and a 1942 Il-2 model being hit repeatedly by 20mm cannon fire. As you can see, just like in the game, there is no visiblestructural failure caused in either aircraft but one can easily assume damage was caused to internal components.

 

[Nightrise]

yeah but in IL-2 BoS it doesnt deal that much  internal damage ...  you hit the 5 times and they flying like nothing happens... but atleast the flight controlls should be damaged/destroyed but no everything fine  the HE or Splash damage is to low to destruct good enough 

Are you sure your actually hitting with the cannon and not just hitting with MG's?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I'm always in the end of these projectiles and trust me, everything inside the aircraft turns to mush. You just learn to fly back with a damaged engine, no aileron controls and the trimmer shot off, it builds character

[Y29.Layin_Scunion]

yes nightrise ... I see the 20mm explosions/smoke clouds

And what's your ping?

 

What's his ping?

 

The 20mm problem was addressed 2-3 updates ago. I've seen the most vocal people about this issue say it has been fixed but could still use a little tweaking.

 

It's most likely latency being your issue.