The reliability of WOL is affecting multi-player for U.S. Players

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

What can the devs do though? 'Hey kids go play at the new server'?

 

In a multiplayer community environment you need to take action yourself. When the crowd I flew with on FNBF didn't like the lack of VVS squadrons and players, we got together and created a unit and a year on it's the best place to be.

 

In this case, get your WoL friends, get a rival squadron, make an event twice a week where you go to a less-popular server and play there. Make a culture of going to the second most popular server when you go online, a few people will eventually flock along

This could work - make another one popular with similar rulset for casual play.

[Herne]

I really wish the Devs/marketing people would get more involved in promoting special events and incentivizing play on alternate servers. These problems are not going to get solved without some serious nudging.

 

It's nothing to do with the dev's.

 

I used to play NWN (Neverwinter Nights) similar thing in so far as they create a single player game, but the most fun was to be had on community hosted servers. Dev's just give us the tools so that like minded people can play on servers they enjoy.

[DickDong]

Negative D777, no attempts where made at a full real 24/7 US server with a campaign setup.If there was the marketing was terrible.

 

The devs were helping out with Random Expert for a bit, testing some mechanics I believe.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Banzaii

[NO_SQDeriku777]

What can the devs do though? 'Hey kids go play at the new server'?

In a multiplayer community environment you need to take action yourself. When the crowd I flew with on FNBF didn't like the lack of VVS squadrons and players, we got together and created a unit and a year on it's the best place to be.

In this case, get your WoL friends, get a rival squadron, make an event twice a week where you go to a less-popular server and play there. Make a culture of going to the second most popular server when you go online, a few people will eventually flock along

I don't know extractly what the Devs can do. I do think that the current situation is not healthy and could possibly impact future sales. I mean, after WOL crashes there is NO multi-player. That is a fact. The player numbers drop to nothing. Just because I am trying to bring attention to the problem does not mean I have the means to solve it. Telling me to stand up a server or play on another sparsely populated server does not get rid of the FACt that mutliplayer is effectively not working. I can take acreenshots of the server browser and total numbers online retailers less tha. 20 after WOL crashes. If I played a game like Red Orchestra and there was only one populated server and everyone leaves when it crashes, eventually I will stop playing. I might even switch to another multi-player game because for me, as much as I love and appreciate the simulation aspects this is a game. And for a multi-player game to be enjoyable you need a decent number of human opponents. I would warrant that the Devs are more likely to sell more Air Cobras if their U.S. Customers have some assurance that they will get the satisfaction of shooting down real live human players on a regular basis.

 

The inconvenience to me is dwarfed by the fact that an excellent game with excellent multi-player cannot be played multi-player by people in the U.S. At the very least an urgent dserver fix to resolve these crashes needs to be pushed ASAP. I don't really like the dominance of WOL sucking all the oxygen out of all the other servers but at least if it stays up people in the U.S. won't start giving up on multi-player when it crashes.

 

Although I fly with several different groups of people occasionally, none of the people I fly with really have an interest in flying anywhere than WOL. I am not a particularly talented pilot, so really there is no reason for anyone to follow me to another server. Only the larger U.S. squadrons, such as TWB, have the numbers to maybe make a difference here.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

I mean, after WOL crashes there is NO multi-player. That is a fact. 

 

I am not a particularly talented pilot, so really there is no reason for anyone to follow me to another server. 

 

-snip-

 

Your insistence on this doesn't make it a fact.

 

Yeah, there's a totally compelling reason... If Server A has crashed and X number of players want to continue playing, it seems joining Server B would be an entirely logical answer. The other option is quitting the game... And what one could infer from that is that you never really cared about the success of the sim or MP anyway.

 

I don't think you care about arriving at a solution or answer to the WOL problem. You just want to complain along the way. This is an issue with the culture of MP, nothing else.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Sketch tried doing it a few months ago with the TWB NA server, went over like a lead balloon unfortunately. And "yes" the Devs do have some responsibility if the DServer is unstable and crashes all the time under a load. I think it is just a herd mentality thing, all the euros love WOL and the high numbers draw in the NA people as they come online. It is the "line outside the restaurant" phenomenon. "Wow there is a line, this must be a really good restaurant!" even though the near empty one across the street has just as good food. 

[Jade_Monkey]

Sketch tried doing it a few months ago with the TWB NA server, went over like a lead balloon unfortunately. And "yes" the Devs do have some responsibility if the DServer is unstable and crashes all the time under a load. I think it is just a herd mentality thing, all the euros love WOL and the high numbers draw in the NA people as they come online. It is the "line outside the restaurant" phenomenon. "Wow there is a line, this must be a really good restaurant!" even though the near empty one across the street has just as good food.

I dont remember this happening, how much promotion did they do, these things take time and organization to catch on.

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

He didn't do enough promotion admittedly (IMHO), and he pulled it too quickly when the numbers were not there. I think it takes some time for things to catch on sometimes, like a restaurant, it can take some months to build a following. 

[[TWB]Pand]

He didn't do enough promotion admittedly (IMHO), and he pulled it too quickly when the numbers were not there. I think it takes some time for things to catch on sometimes, like a restaurant, it can take some months to build a following. 

 

At the end of the day, there is a HUGE cost to have a server to run the dserver on, there is an ungodly amount of time to be spent developing/creating/testing missions, marketing those missions, coordinating 20+ people to seed the missions once they are live so people will actually log in and fly.  This then needs to happen every night for weeks before an actual impact could be made.  All this has to be done with the TIME and COST to the hosting administrators and the mission makers, with the EXTREMELY high likelihood that not enough people will join to sway pilots off the more popular WOL server, and all that effort was for nothing.

 

Not sure about everyone else, but most of the TWB crew already has a job and a family--- and an additional 40 hours a week of administration/hosting/seeding/marking work is not something we can absorb.

 

We tried to make a difference and failed twice, due in part to:

 - Unreliable Dserver on windows.

 - Inefficiency in the Dserver forcing Limited mission options (having too many units / moving tanks, etc) cripple the Dserver.  Even with the most powerful system on the market today you are forced to create simple style missions with limited assets.

 - Forced to purchase Windows Server licensing to exceed the 20 connection limit.  

 - Non native Linux Dserver.  

 - Lack of constant marketing and coordination of events. 

 - Lack of the community's willingness to change from what they've always done.

 - I'm sure there is more, but I have to get back to work.

 

Good Hunting Gentlemen!

[ACG_KaiLae]

Telling people that the best option for multiplayer when they start playing is wings of potato is like telling a new employee on day one that their job actually involves jumping into barrels of toxic waste. The best thing that could probably happen would be if it went down permanently and then a better server could replace it. WoP's problems are not due to 1CG but to their broken scripting (which they have asked in the multiplayer forums for coders to help to fix).

 

What Pand says about the Dserver software is however a major problem. 1CG should look into overhauling it completely with regards to optimization. The reason you only see moving ground targets, firefights on the ground, and other things in single player is that in MP trying it will melt the server if more than a few people connect. Really dservers overall in CFS are an Achilles heel, CLoD is also bad where it can crash and you'll have no idea why. Drives our mission creators into a frothing rage frequently.

[Capt_Stubing]

You want to complain about the cost of planes? Go check out DCS plane offerings!

 

Monetarily, BOS, BOM and BOK planes are a great deal in comparison.

Apples and Oranges my friend.  A complex DCS module usually has a clickable cockpit which alone is more complex... Not to mention air to air radars air to ground radar (being developed) and in many cases much more complex systems on the aircraft.  I'm sure price has everything to do with their development efforts and what they think they can get in the market.  Good news is DCS goes on sale in which I've gotten many modules for 50% off. 

[coconut]

If trusting someone with full access to the server's host computer is a problem, it's possible to use this piece of software I've written: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21264-release-sturmovik-server-control/?hl=%2Bsturmovikservercontrol

 

That makes it possible to give someone limited access to the execution of DServer.exe: The remote user can stop/start the server and load existing sds config files. That should be enough to keep the server alive if it goes down during the night.

 

Personally I'm all for players to spread out a bit and give other servers than WoL a try, but the same problem will arise with other servers in Europe: If they crash during GMT night time, American players will be out of luck.

[Capt_Stubing]

Telling people that the best option for multiplayer when they start playing is wings of potato is like telling a new employee on day one that their job actually involves jumping into barrels of toxic waste. The best thing that could probably happen would be if it went down permanently and then a better server could replace it. WoP's problems are not due to 1CG but to their broken scripting (which they have asked in the multiplayer forums for coders to help to fix).

 

What Pand says about the Dserver software is however a major problem. 1CG should look into overhauling it completely with regards to optimization. The reason you only see moving ground targets, firefights on the ground, and other things in single player is that in MP trying it will melt the server if more than a few people connect. Really dservers overall in CFS are an Achilles heel, CLoD is also bad where it can crash and you'll have no idea why. Drives our mission creators into a frothing rage frequently.

Agreed.  I think to further IL2 as a whole there does need to be some effort to make MP an easier point of entry.  From what Jason has said in the past it would be no easy feat given the backend is pretty complex.  I think MP is what is going to make this sim series last.  It's what made Il2 1946 + mods last for a good decade

[Jade_Monkey]

Is it possible to rent a server on the cloud (tech expert here XD)? Does someone know the actual full cost of running/renting a single server?

 

If enough people are willing to chip in, it might come down to $5 per person. In that case I'd be willing to donate. Cheaper than netflix and i would get more fun out of it.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

Is it possible to rent a server on the cloud (tech expert here XD)? Does someone know the actual full cost of running/renting a single server?

If enough people are willing to chip in, it might come down to $5 per person. In that case I'd be willing to donate. Cheaper than netflix and i would get more fun out of it.

Pand/TWB already did his and believe me he is a tech expert and had a full active squadron behind this. It is very unlikely that anyone is going to do any better than he did given all the limitations he laid out in his post.

[Jade_Monkey]

Pand/TWB already did his and believe me he is a tech expert and had a full active squadron behind this. It is very unlikely that anyone is going to do any better than he did given all the limitations he laid out in his post.

That doesnt answer my question

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Is it possible to rent a server on the cloud (tech expert here XD)? Does someone know the actual full cost of running/renting a single server?

 

If enough people are willing to chip in, it might come down to $5 per person. In that case I'd be willing to donate. Cheaper than netflix and i would get more fun out of it.

 

Yes, hosted server space is generally what people go with because purchasing server hardware is enormously expensive.

[von-Luck]

I see this as a community culture issue. For any number of reasons people gravitate to WOL primarily. Other options exist however they don't seem to attract the same kind of attention. I tried switching to new wings when WOL went down months ago and it was sad. Something like 50 players on WOL and post crash no more than 8 players migrated to this server. Call me greedy but I enjoy flying in this a lot more when my sorties involve action. Low pop typically means a lot of flying around looking and little to no contact. Other server options currently exist but nobody is willing to embrace them. That I am nearly forced to fly on a 200-250 ping server because that server hosts 80-90% of an incredibly small community pains me. I would be ecstatic to see an American server with more than 20 players on it regularly.

 

von Luck

Edited August 24, 2017 by von-Luck

[MadisonV44]

The problem is not WOL, the problem is related to MP engine and net code. In addition, there are not enough local server with < 50 ms ping (or not enough player to populate them to have a descent gameplay)  

 

After the next major update coming (can't wait for BOK and its mountains...) Multiplayer should be the next project to improve the sim. Its already quite playable and stable but there is room for improvement in terms of performance and scalability. I know this is not visual, not marketing, that new content will be better to sell the game... but this is a gameplay BASIC to retain the "few" pilots online that make the community live. 

 

I personally hope with my squad mates that a reliable multiplayer engine (with an optimized net code) will be on the improvement list soon ! Being shot down by a plane which is not visually aligned on the fire line is not immersive (Slight change in rudder or stick are not yet well visually transmitted compared to IL2-46). Concentration of planes on a dogfight zone is also not well handled by servers.   

 

Another important point : ressources taken on server are not optimized and the server needs too much requirements to set up a MP easily for squads and its far too expansive. Self hosting should be a project to develop a more broader adoption of the game

Edited August 24, 2017 by MadisonV44

[[TWB]Pand]

That doesnt answer my question

 

Here's an AWS calculator: https://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html

 

You'd need at least 4 cores and AT LEAST 8GB RAM, and likely 120GBish SSD to house the windows server and IL2 with some room left over to move around.

Edited August 24, 2017 by [TWB]Pand

[JG4_dingsda]

- Non native Linux Dserver.

This I still don't get ...

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by JG4_dingsda

[NO_SQDeriku777]

This I still don't get ...

 

I imagine that Windows server licensing costs are, ummm, not as significant in Russia. Edited August 24, 2017 by NO_SQDeriku777

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

I imagine that Windows server licensing costs are, ummm, not as significant in Russia.

 

That is a massive and incorrect assumption.

 

There is a reason that hosted solutions like AWS, Azure, etc. exist.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[[FF]frostysauce]

I feel like the devs should put this up as a contract item. It will cost them quite a bit of money, most likely, however a few experienced resources could be hired and probably get this thing off the ground and rebuilt rather easily. Otherwise, they could pause their content dev cycle to really focus on MP. This would be an investment, and could potentially pump some life into the player base and retain new players. The sim itself has really come a long way, and its a shame that the multiplayer does not reflect that.

 

While I get that there are options other than WoL, it's not wrong that unless you fancy flying basically by yourself there are no options - in that case, why wouldn't I just fly single player? And if WoL is down, and the other servers are empty, and I don't want to play single player? I'm going to drop out, and play another game, or do something else. Because we know that none of the other servers are going to get any action, where is the incentive of trying to kickstart another server? While there are the virtuous few that are active on these forums that would try in vain to boot up another server, I would say the majority of people who just want to pick up a game do not give two hoots about the politics of which server to play on, and will only gravitate to the one where there are a reasonable amount of people (not 5). 

 

However that whole above scenario is because there practically is no online player base, servers are not reliable, and a single WoL server is basically able to serve all of the online players that wish to play at any given moment online, in the entire world. The solution to this problem is to increase the player base. Weather that is by making a more stable dserver, advertising more, having a free steam weekend (please don't do this until you fix the stability, or it will just turn away potential players), who knows. That is where a good strategy consultant would come in.

 

/rant

[Guest deleted@30725]

Why doesn't this game have a lobby with a chat function so players can group up and go into servers without just looking at current player numbers in the server list?

[Guest deleted@83466]

Instead of all this discussion about what the developers can do and what different servers are needed or whatever, why not just address the simple things first.  1)  WoL needs someone with technical expertise who can figure out whatever is ailing this server, and 2) They need somebody who lives either in America or Oceania who has the authority to do whatever it is they do to reset things if the server crashes.

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

They have it on their to-do list (redo the MP lobby)

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Go to milopugdog's Discord channel, it's a good lobby and you can always find people to fly with.

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

^ link https://discord.gg/saeEMmQ

[[TWB]80hd]

[Pharoah]

Totally agree with OP. Having the WoL server as the most popular is a positive and negative thing at the same time. Positive in that its a good experience flying with and against others online. Negative in that, there's only one WoL and not 10...all populated to the same levels on a regular basis. Why is that? What makes WoL so good? I spend more of my time now flying on coconut's server or TAW (when up) before WoL, however being Aust based I'm pinging 320+. Would much prefer a US based server.

 

I'm wondering though...is the fact that there's only one massively popular (and populated) BoX server indicative of the player base or the lack of a player base outside of europe? if we had the Battle of Guadalcanal or something (featuring US/Japanese aircraft), I'm quite sure this would attract players from the US/Japan/Oceania...who would then host their own servers locally as well.

 

Either way, we need to do something. Maybe someone replicate the WoL server in the US...if you build it, they will come....

[Jade_Monkey]

Why doesn't this game have a lobby with a chat function so players can group up and go into servers without just looking at current player numbers in the server list?

Yes, if people had an easy way to coordinate then they could pick a different server and play there. If players connect individually they will always seek the most populated server instead.

 

I was not around in the IL2 46 times but I've heard a lot about hyper lobby and sounds like it enabled more communication among players. I guess discord would be a good place to do that in the meantime like they said above.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It's a North American online player base problem. In Europe you can get two populated servers from lunch time thanks to the decent amount of Siberian and Chinese players, then they pass the torch to the Urals and western Russia, onto Poland, Ukraine and the Baltics, and the rest of Europe, then Portugal and the UK. Finally, the North American players get the leftovers of the European party and after a while they're on their own.

It mustn't be underestimated that the overwhelming majority of players are in single player modes, hence the heavy investment into the new career mode. Multiplayer is always volatile, while a solid campaign means guaranteed entertainment any time of the day, that's where the money really is.

[Boaty-McBoatface]

It mustn't be underestimated that the overwhelming majority of players are in single player modes, that's where the money really is.

Hi there, you've got to be mistaken somehow surely? There is no way in hell that the majority of players are tucked away doing single player, at least not in this day and age for sure. May I ask where are you getting this from?

 

Single player is almost nonexistent these days, aside from target practice and gunnery training that is.

Edited August 25, 2017 by temujin

[Brano]

Hi there, you've got to be mistaken somehow surely? There is no way in hell that the majority of players are tucked away doing single player, at least not in this day and age for sure. May I ask where are you getting this from?

 

Single player is almost nonexistent these days, aside from target practice and gunnery training that is.

I guess thousands of SP players are as amused as myself by this statement :D

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Not the case, temujin

 

Proportionally few people have the patience (and time too) to put up with multiplayer behaviour and the shenanigans found there, so they fly offline in the generated campaign, the ever-growing number of scripted campaigns, and Pat Wilson's dynamic campaign. Within the more controlled single player environment, you can get better immersion 99% of the times compared to Wings of Liberty for example. The AI might be dim but he doesn't teamkill you for "kill stealing", he doesn't take off across the field and he doesn't sit on top of airbases the whole day looking for easy kills.

[Boaty-McBoatface]

Good points gents. I haven't given single player a good try recently. Last time was with the ju52 missions by gambit. Very good but I still presumed most players wouldn't be arsed. They want to get in and fight and get stats, prove they are the best; that is where WOL comes in.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

There's two main branches of historical flight sim players - domestic reenactors/aviation buffs, and the competitive type you mentioned. The latter is usually found online often, the former will go online only for controlled environments and kick ass offline otherwise. Both remain invisible to each other, in a way

 

Try out SYN_Haashashin's free campaigns for starters If they're to taste there are also some official campaigns in the Il-2 store by the developers' mission designer BlackSix.

[Mowgli]

This server is down every single day. The server licence should be revoked, it's a shame.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Not the case, temujin

 

Proportionally few people have the patience (and time too) to put up with multiplayer behaviour and the shenanigans found there, so they fly offline in the generated campaign, the ever-growing number of scripted campaigns, and Pat Wilson's dynamic campaign. Within the more controlled single player environment, you can get better immersion 99% of the times compared to Wings of Liberty for example. The AI might be dim but he doesn't teamkill you for "kill stealing", he doesn't take off across the field and he doesn't sit on top of airbases the whole day looking for easy kills.

Well that AI will shoulder shot too, do not follow orders ,crash to ground, do not fight but circle or do it like it won't care to win or defense, but in same time is impossible to be surprised (attack from six bellow). Well overall AI is not that bad as multiplayer behavior is not that bad too. AI is constantly improved and maybe will find major overhaul in the future.