VR vs. TrackIR 5

[Avyx]

I'd like to get the VR only for the immersion, nothing else

But at the moment, VIVE and Rift had poor IQ, and I really don't know what else I should get

Pimax 4k,maybe? Or I should better a few months?

[Lensman]

VR is vastly superior to Track-IR and I own both. Track-IR is an effective way to control the viewpoint of a 2D aircraft whereas with VR you are sitting in a real aircraft (nearly). With VR you can lean into the instrument panel and it's in perfect 3D to the level of every component of each dial and switch. You can align your eye with the gunsight just by slightly moving your head, you can see EXACTLY where your rounds are flying, you feel the size of each aircraft, you can see left, right, up, down just by looking (smooth as silk), the earth is WAY DOWN THERE, the enemy aircraft are 3D and amazing ... I was bad at deflection shooting in 2D but in VR I can nail it. Really, just try VR, it's SO superior you will be astonished. The ONLY deficit is resolution, it's harder to spot distant flying objects but the hud target indicators deal with that.

[Avyx]

Can you zoom in and out with VR?

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

We have a press and hold 2x zoom

[Lensman]

Can you zoom in and out with VR?

Yes but you don't need to because it's just like being in a real aircraft so just lean forward a bit. I can place my eyes 2 inches from (for example) the cockpit clock in a FW-190 just by leaning towards it. Imagine you're in your car and you'll behave the same. You can look around the side of things, underneath things, over things. No need at all for a zoom control.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Lensman

[Lensman]

But at the moment, VIVE and Rift had poor IQ

Have you TRIED one?

My RIFT has surprisingly GOOD VR image quality, far better than I expected. I would never fly in IL-2 without it now.

[Avyx]

No, i didn't try one, but a lot of owners said that.

[BeastyBaiter]

Yes but you don't need to because it's just like being in a real aircraft so just lean forward a bit. I can place my eyes 2 inches from (for example) the cockpit clock in a FW-190 just by leaning towards it. Imagine you're in your car and you'll behave the same. You can look around the side of things, underneath things, over things. No need at all for a zoom control.

 

Leaning forwards doesn't help identify distant targets. But yes, there is a zoom button for use in VR. It works reasonably well and largely solves the difficulty of identifying stuff in VR.

[Lensman]

Leaning forwards doesn't help identify distant targets. But yes, there is a zoom button for use in VR. It works reasonably well and largely solves the difficulty of identifying stuff in VR.

Ah ... ok, that usage of zoom. To me that kills the immersion because you're no longer reliant on basic eye-sight so I just use the hud target indication toggled on a throttle button. Once it's told me what I'm seeing I switch it off. Each to their own of course and it's good to have choices.

[BeastyBaiter]

Neither option is ideal but I think most of us find the icons more immersion breaking than zooming.

[dburne]

Have you TRIED one?

My RIFT has surprisingly GOOD VR image quality, far better than I expected. I would never fly in IL-2 without it now.

 

I am with you there, there is no telling how many hours I have flown this sim since VR implementation.

[Avyx]

I'm pretty sure I will get one, sooner or later, but right now I prefer to wait

[CanadaOne]

What's the dizziness/nausea factor with VR?

[BeastyBaiter]

I think most of us get used to it quickly. I admit I got slightly queasy my first few flights in VR but that went away quickly. At this point there is no difference in comfort between VR and a monitor for me.

[dburne]

I think most of us get used to it quickly. I admit I got slightly queasy my first few flights in VR but that went away quickly. At this point there is no difference in comfort between VR and a monitor for me.

 

Agreed, I got to where it really did not bother me anymore to speak of after about a couple of weeks or so. And I get motion sickness pretty easily, like while riding in a car ( not driving).

[Lensman]

What's the dizziness/nausea factor with VR?

Zero in my case.

[II/JG11_ATLAN_VR]

+1

[CanadaOne]

Well I admit the $700 price tag makes me a bit dizzy, but it seems like it would be an awesome toy.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

There was a summer sale on Rift for 399$

[BeastyBaiter]

I think he's using Canadian, not USD. Current Rift price is $500 USD with the touch controllers and the Vive is $600. Still a lot of money though.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Oops. Apologies!

[CanadaOne]

Canadian money is worth the equivalent of over cooked pasta when comparing to US prices. Plus... We pay 15% tax on everything.

[ATA_Vasilij]

agree with all of You.

VR is faaaar beyond the TrackIR or whatever on monitor. Immersion exceeds the current 2d screens. The difference is totally out of your imagination. Once you will try VR, you will never go back to the monitor. And you will ask: "How can anyone play the games just on the monitors???"

 

Yeah Image quality is not perfect, but who cares? You are directly in the plane and Stalingrad is below you, and you are not anymore in your room , but in the year 1942 above east front durint the second world war.

 

About pressing the keys on the keyboard. Yes Less mapped keys on keyboard and more on the joystick. Of course. Or do a mapping where you can find the proper keys even without seeing them. Like: Use Ctrl or Shift, they are on the very left side, Shift is longer..., you can find those keys just by touching them.

Shift A, you can press on dark, Ctrl Y, Ctrl X, Ctrl C you can press on dark, 

E for starting you can learn find as well by time.

 

Lots of functions can be mapped like : Ctrl + 3d hat on the Joystick - HAT is useless in VR, so all the directions can be used with CTRL, with Shift for lots of things to be mapped.

 

One hand is on the joy and second will find the CTRL very quickly on the keyboad, because it is in the corner of it.

 

And as someone said before: On Oculus you have very small gap between the nose and headset, so by this hole you can see the background on the table before you. 

Everything works if you search for the way how.

 

 

Wish you a clean Six, and good landings, guys.

Edited October 13, 2017 by 3.IAP_Vasilij

[dburne]

 

 

And as someone said before: On Oculus you have very small gap betwwern the nose and headset, so with this hole you can see the background on the table before you. 

Everything works if you search for the way how.

 

 

Wish you a clean Six, and good landings, guys.

 

Yeah that nose gap really helps for sure. Whilst I have all my main functions on my HOTAS and I can control them without looking at anything, I do use the G Keys on the left lower side of my Logitech Gaming keyboard for some of my radio commands for wingmen and it works quite well for me. 

 

I also have Voice Attack for that, and that works really good for me also - however I share an office with my wife, who works from home. So during the week she is on phone a lot, and I use the G Keys rather than Voice Attack. Evenings and weekends though, I make full use of VA.

[ATA_Vasilij]

So your wife is working whilst you just sitting by of her are turning with your head and shooting the planes, right? 

She must think - he is absolutely crazy with his headset ) And you are very safisfied in very different reality :D

[dburne]

So your wife is working whilst you just sitting by of her are turning with your head and shooting the planes, right? 

She must think - he is absolutely crazy with his headset ) And you are very safisfied in very different reality :D

 

Lol, yep that is correct. She has a partition up beside her desk, so she does not have to see me doing crazy things with my Rift and Touch controllers lol.

 

When I am flying, or playing other games  in VR, I am not even here - I am in that virtual world.

Edited October 13, 2017 by dburne

[SimpleThe1st]

You can't compare the two, they are different things..

 

Track IR is about spotting, planning and excecution..

VR is about reacting and emotion. I could imagine that each one suits different personality types.

 

I have been flying in VR for a little while now, first has to upgrade from a GTX 970 to a 1080 (970 works amazing for 2d with trackir) and also upgrade my RAM. I was getting really agitated by how difficult it is to see if a plane is a friendly or not with the lower resolution in vr, so I tried a few flights with Trackir again after a long break.

 

Well let me just say that I'm totally hooked on vr again after going back to try trackir last night again. If you can't afford all the necessary upgrades for vr (card, processor, ram) then trackir is great. It blows away vr for spotting, plane recognition etc. But VR has me sold again, even at the cost of resolution. Would basically say it's like playing 2 different games which is how it should really be thought of and the "Trackir vs VR" debate should be put to bed.

 

Track IR is about improving your target tracking around your plane and above/front with a quick check six. It's best employed for those who like to calculate, formulate a plan and execute and are very patient fliers. In a boom and zoom scenario I would take track ir. I also think it's better for stalking, sneaking up on someone.

 

VR is about experiencing more feelings and emotions of combat, ie immersion. VR is superior in a turn fight to me as it's better for reacting, spherical awareness and gauging distance. If you're a risk taking, seat of your pants flyer who enjoys close calls, VR is for you!

 

Track ir feelings:

1.Looking out the window as an object goes past you which is awesome compared to no track ir. Your first flight with it really will blow you away and it's for sure worth the money.

2.easily scope sectors of sky and spot objects coming a long way out to help avoid getting bounced.

 

VR feelings:

1. Somebody is chasing me paranoia, turning around to frantically see where they are rather than a quick, less emotional check.

2. When the aircraft stops on the runway you move your head forward just like the g force from brakes, it just happens and it will trip you out and bring you back to reality a bit.

3. Extreme guilt when you've flamed a friendly because you totally blew the id on target due to your poorer resolution.

4. Getting bounced a lot more, less chance to see people coming (see paranoia feeling described in 1) cursing poor resolution and distance spotting, wishing to go back to track ir momentarily.

5. Getting shot down while staring at targets in a swarm trying to id. Wishing to go to track ir momentarily

6. Reversing on an enemy in close quarters with a series of s-turns or a snap roll (you can almost feel how close they are on your 6)

7. The feeling of pulling up under and flaming an FW190 in your YAK1 who's trying to hammerhead you but you avoid the stall because you have a much better sense of an impeding stall and know just when to drop your flaps.

8. The crushing knowledge of how much debt you will be in

to support your newly found VR habit to chase better resolution and haptics that will come to simulate movement and g-force (please lord while I am still alive!)

 

That's where I feel like things are at, but this is just an opinion, not a fact! Everyone's going to have their own but I'm curious to see if anyone else experiences a heightened sense of emotion and feeling in VR like I do?

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Good analysis of the difference between the two SimpleThe1st. Yes I agree regarding the feeling and awareness comment. I guess that is one of the factors that is very difficult to explain to someone that hasn't tried it.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

I have been flying in VR for a little while now, first has to upgrade from a GTX 970 to a 1080 (970 works amazing for 2d with trackir) and also upgrade my RAM.

 

I see you opted for upgrading your GPU and RAM. If you have any chance, please try to run the VR test just to verify that it was a GPU/RAM problem.  

 

 

Would basically say it's like playing 2 different games which is how it should really be thought of and the "Trackir vs VR" debate should be put to bed

 

I always believed that. They are two separated things. 

[chiliwili69]

 

 

The crushing knowledge of how much debt you will be in to support your newly found VR habit to chase better resolution and haptics that will come to simulate movement and g-force (please lord while I am still alive!)

 

Yes, I am also keen VR evolution in the flight sim. Who knows what we could see in 10 years! 

[dburne]

8. The crushing knowledge of how much debt you will be in

to support your newly found VR habit to chase better resolution and haptics that will come to simulate movement and g-force (please lord while I am still alive!)

 

 

I do not go into debt, but I can absolutely relate to the feeling of all that money I have spent from when I first got my Rift up until now to support this crazy habit lol !

And I shudder to think how much more I might spend going forward... but man oh man am I ever enjoying the VR experience!

[Mauf]

A fair warning about nausea/VR sickness:

 

I seem to be a minority going by the reports but I've had the Rift for about 2 weeks now. I'm still unable to use it for any longer than 15-20 minutes. I'm slowly feeling some reduced onset on certain situations but doing things like circling wing pointed around an object or looking to your 1 or 11 o'clock and rolling really do me in. I havn't puked (yet) but it gives me headsplitting headaches and at one point, I actually broke into cold sweats. Not very pleasant experiences. Currently, I only do short stints of maybe 5-10 minutes to simply keep exposing myself to it to get more accustomed. Just throwing my report in to remind people that it's not a pleasant start for everyone.

[SYN_Mike77]

Is this the future of VR?  200 degree field of view, no sde and vive compliant.  What's not to like?  Except the wait of course.

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pimax-8k-vr-headset-trial,35745.html

[chiliwili69]

 

 

I'm still unable to use it for any longer than 15-20 minutes

 

Just curious, what are the specs of your rig (CPU/RAMspeed/GPU)?

 

What is the fps you have during the flying sessions? (Press backspace and you will see them in the right-upper corner)

 

Just to be sure your rig or settings are adequate. 

[dburne]

A fair warning about nausea/VR sickness:

 

I seem to be a minority going by the reports but I've had the Rift for about 2 weeks now. I'm still unable to use it for any longer than 15-20 minutes. I'm slowly feeling some reduced onset on certain situations but doing things like circling wing pointed around an object or looking to your 1 or 11 o'clock and rolling really do me in. I havn't puked (yet) but it gives me headsplitting headaches and at one point, I actually broke into cold sweats. Not very pleasant experiences. Currently, I only do short stints of maybe 5-10 minutes to simply keep exposing myself to it to get more accustomed. Just throwing my report in to remind people that it's not a pleasant start for everyone.

 

Yes, you would be in the minority based on your description after using it a couple of weeks, but certainly there are a few that really have trouble acclimating to it. 

I get motion sick fairly easily, and really struggled when I first got my Rift with it. Can't say it was so bad it gave me headaches.

I can't remember how long it took me to fully adjust to where it did not really bother me much anymore, probably somewhere in the 2-4 week range.

 

The important thing, as soon as you feel it coming on take a long break. Hopefully it will improve with time.

Is this the future of VR?  200 degree field of view, no sde and vive compliant.  What's not to like?  Except the wait of course.

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pimax-8k-vr-headset-trial,35745.html

 

Have a look at this thread:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/31215-pipmax-8k-5k-vr-headsets-coming-kickstarter-month/

[Mauf]

Just curious, what are the specs of your rig (CPU/RAMspeed/GPU)?

 

What is the fps you have during the flying sessions? (Press backspace and you will see them in the right-upper corner)

 

Just to be sure your rig or settings are adequate. 

 

Ryzen 1600 overclocked to 3.8 Ghz, 1080 GTX, RAM speed I don't have on hand right now but should be fast enough. Stable 45 FPS. It seems (by comparing to other games) it's related to having a landscape. For example, I tried Elite Dangerous and Star Trek Bridge crew. Both games I can play without a hitch. Upon further investigation, I have no trouble tracking planes in BoS either... so long as I look up at the more or less featureless sky. It's something to do with the parallax when a landscape moves.

Edited October 25, 2017 by No.54Arglmauf

[HunDread]

Constant 45 FPS can be the reason for nausea. Especially at the beginning when trying to grow the VR legs. You might try to reduce your settings so you can get constant 90 FPS. Or just set up a quick mission alone without any other planes to get constant 90 FPS and try flying around and see if it is better. 

[Mauf]

Constant 45 FPS can be the reason for nausea. Especially at the beginning when trying to grow the VR legs. You might try to reduce your settings so you can get constant 90 FPS. Or just set up a quick mission alone without any other planes to get constant 90 FPS and try flying around and see if it is better. 

Problem is that it seems to be limited by the VR? I can reduce settings as much as I want, it won't go over. I somehow doubt that a 3.8 ghz, 1080 GTX combo is not able to crack the 45 limit at low settings so something else is afoot here.

[HunDread]

Problem is that it seems to be limited by the VR? I can reduce settings as much as I want, it won't go over. I somehow doubt that a 3.8 ghz, 1080 GTX combo is not able to crack the 45 limit at low settings so something else is afoot here.

I doubt that too that it cannot get to 90 FPS at least in a lone quick mission without targets or enemy planes. Just to see if 90 FPS is better for your nausea or not.

 

Do you use Oculus Debug tool / Oculus Tray tool etc ? ASW may be permanently turned on?

 

Steam VR also has an option. Something like Reprojection. I don't remember exactly what it's called, but it is somewhere around the slider where you set SuperSampling in SteamVR. 

You can also try starting a lone quick mission starting on 2-3k. The higher you are, the more FPS friendly it is.

[TG-55Panthercules]

Yeah - sounds like ASW is probably on if it's stuck at 45 all the time - you might want to try hitting "CTRL+Numpad1" (to turn ASW off) just before you start your mission and see if that helps.

 

If you haven't already, you might want to try running the VR benchmark process outlined in the 1st post of this thread:  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29322-measuring-rig-performance-common-baseline/

Edited October 26, 2017 by TG-55Panthercules