VR vs. TrackIR 5

[Avyx]

Hello everyone,

Would you recommend to replace the TrackIR5 ( 55 inches 4k TV ) with the VR ?

Yeah, i can imagine, the immersion and realism with VR it's different, but there is only one thing i can't understand :  how do you use all your keyboard / HOTAS, joystick buttons ?!

 

 

 

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Clumsily

[dburne]

VR is a totally different experience versus Track IR.  Rather than looking at an image at a fixed point ( your monitor), with head turning moving the image via Track IR, you are pretty much in the game with VR with everything all around you wherever you look, and at a 1:1 scale and 1:1 head movement. It is literally like you are really in that cockpit, and that world. It is quite an amazing experience. The first time I found myself in the cockpit of a plane after getting my Rift, I was just astounded and still very much feel that way each time I get back in.

 

As far as how you use the keyboard/HOTAS. 

Keyboard- well that is somewhat difficult. The Rift does have a small gap beneath the nose to allow one to peer out to see it, but it is not so easy to reach out with fingers to press the keys. I personally do not use the keyboard, I use my HOTAS. No problem with that, after all I did not have to look at buttons to press on my joystick/throttle prior to VR either as I had already learned the commands I had assigned to them , so was no problem adapting to this aspect using it with the Rift. A good HOTAS with lots of buttons is very advantageous.  A good app for radio commands and others is Voice Attack as well, I do not have it yet but plan to get it this week. I understand it works quite well with the Rift mic.

 

So yes, the immersion and realism is beyond anything I have ever seen in PC gaming. By far. But also at the same time I would caution, the resolution is a step back, due to it being first generation. For me the experience of it all far outweighs the resolution and I don't really even think about it anymore, and overall I would say that is the case for most. But there usually are a small few that can't get beyond it and would rather fly on a higher resolution monitor. 

The spotting is pretty good as everything is full size, however target ID can be problematic due to the resolution. 

 

I have had my Rift since Jan 15th, have not gamed on the monitor since - for me it is only VR now.

[Avyx]

dburne, when you play DCS, you have to use the keyboard, too. No matter what.

There are a lot of commands.

Tell me please, about the VR resolution. I read some reviews about, but can't understand exactly, because VR has 2 " displays "

What's the resolution for one single display - VR ? 

I'm confused when VR owners say "  the resolution is a step back "

Why ? VR has such a small display

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

In BoX I never touch the keyboard. Between my stick, iron mechanic throttle and voice attack software I have no need to. VR users aren't being rude in MP chat, we just can't really chat while "geared up".

 

Also Track IR allows rear views that in VR are yoga inducing exercises (1 to 1 viewing). I'm head over heels with my Rift, and I doubt I'll ever go back to TrackIr anytime soon.

[Avyx]

I know, in BoX i never touch the keyboard ( only for ESC, but this isn't an issue )

But for DCS, it's another story.

JackSparrow, how does your neck feels after 2-3 hours of " Yoga VR " ?

What about the other questions i asked ( resolution VR, etc ) ?

Thank you

[II/JG11_ATLAN_VR]

Cant beat VR have my OR since 2 Month now, immersion is the key, never go back to TIR and Monitor,resolution etc will improve whe i invest in  better hardware  cpu and ram and MB end of this year and next stage of dev of OR CV2 in 2019 i believe

Edited August 21, 2017 by II/JG11ATLAN

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

VR is a workout. But a fun workout. My friends on discord get a giggle out of hearing us three VR users grunt and groan while trying to turn to get even a glimpse of our six. My neck feels fine, though the first week my back and neck popped a lot. It looks so real that if i take my hand off the stick to check six etc when I turn back around i actually grab for the stick in the 190, not my hotas.

 

I shot a wing and canopy off a 109 last night in my mig3 in mp, when they tumbled back above me i actually shrunk in the chair and ducked.

 

Resolution at range is meh. Up close it's just fine. Spotting is easy but identification is a bitch. Judging aspect, angle off, closure rate at long range is very hard. We've rolled in as a 3ship on a target at 15k feet on my to have the lead ship at just about trigger time say "it's a mig, mig mig mig, off!" Could i have identified that mig on my 55" monitor, sure could. Does that 55" offer depth perception, since of speed and feeling of being there, nope.

 

VR ftw!

[dburne]

 

dburne, when you play DCS, you have to use the keyboard, too. No matter what.

There are a lot of commands.

Tell me please, about the VR resolution. I read some reviews about, but can't understand exactly, because VR has 2 " displays "

What's the resolution for one single display - VR ? 

I'm confused when VR owners say "  the resolution is a step back "

Why ? VR has such a small display

 

 

I also play DCS and do not use the keyboard. I wasn't even before I got the Rift. I have just about all my needed controls assigned to my HOTAS.

 

Actual resolution of the Rift display is 2160x1200 at 90hz refresh rate. As JackSparrow said, resolution up close looks really good, at distances a little rough.

[BeastyBaiter]

How to use a keyboard in VR: Don't. Assign everything to your HOTAS in BoS and everything you need in combat to your HOTAS in DCS. Stuff like landing gear is best left for mouse clicking. It may not be ideal, but trying to find the G key is a great way to reset trim, toggle the airbrake or fire off a missile.

 

How to use a HOTAS in VR: The same way you always do, by feel rather than looking.

 

Resolution: It's low compared to 4k, 1440p and even 1080p. The physical resolution is technically slightly higher than 1440p, but that's for a wide angle and includes two eyes. In terms of how it looks, imagine a 1440p screen stretched around your desk so that it covers your entire field of view while looking straight ahead. You cannot see the desk, floor or ceiling. There is nothing but the screen in front of you. That's what it's like, except fully 3d. Needless to say, a screen that huge running at 1440p looks very low resolution and you can clearly see individual pixels if you look for them. With that said, it is perfectly usable in flight sims. If anything, it actually makes spotting and tracking easier since the pixels are bigger. But it also means identifying stuff is more challenging at a distance as you lose all the fine detail of a seemingly smaller but much higher resolution monitor.

 

Overall, I think the immersion of it far outweighs the loss in resolution. The combination of 1 to 1 head tracking, the 3d nature of it and the overall immersion make it absolutely worth while if you can afford it. It is worth keeping your PC in mind though. I think your system will be fine but do be aware that both BoS and DCS hammer a single thread on the CPU pretty hard in VR. You will see less than the ideal 90 fps at times regardless of graphics settings.

Edited August 21, 2017 by BeastyBaiter

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Yep, what he said.

[AcesHigh]

I think IL2 is good for VR with rift, enjoying it despite the decrease in resolution detail.   Of all the flightsims this is the only one that truly feels right in VR.  I still play DCS in triple screen with trackir and now il2 in VR and awaiting Kuban.  I'd say if you have the money for toys then VR is nice especially with Il2 and a few other titles (but not flight sims), otherwise I'd stick with trackIR for now.   When gen2 of VR headsets come out and they increase the FOV and resolution clarity it will be a no brainier then. 

[Avyx]

I think IL2 is good for VR with rift, enjoying it despite the decrease in resolution detail.   Of all the flightsims this is the only one that truly feels right in VR.  I still play DCS in triple screen with trackir and now il2 in VR and awaiting Kuban.  I'd say if you have the money for toys then VR is nice especially with Il2 and a few other titles (but not flight sims), otherwise I'd stick with trackIR for now.   When gen2 of VR headsets come out and they increase the FOV and resolution clarity it will be a no brainier then. 

The gen2 of VR wont come out before 2019, i guess.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Avyx

[HunDread]

Tell me please, about the VR resolution. I read some reviews about, but can't understand exactly, because VR has 2 " displays "

What's the resolution for one single display - VR ? 

I'm confused when VR owners say "  the resolution is a step back "

Why ? VR has such a small display

 

 

The reason is that you are looking at the screens through magnifying glasses. This is why the reolution is perceived as low and that the SDE is visible. And this is the reason that it's hard, if not impossible, to come up with an exact number for the resolution.

[AcesHigh]

The gen2 of VR wont come out before 2019, i guess.

 

I am seeing the same news.   Will just echo what I said if you have the money to drop on a new toy and won't feel guilt rift is an amazing experience.  You have to have the right attitude and expectation though to continue to enjoy it after the newness wears off.   Using a keyboard is extremely frustrating, hotas not so much.   It's not going to have the clarity of a monitor and I feel like it washes out the picture, for text you have to learn to look directly at it as the oculus has a walleye effect and blurs at the edges.  Overall I'd recommend it those that can drop the cash but just keep the expectation and attitude in check and you can continue to be amazed at what the new technology offers, granted even with the right attitude and expectations you will cuss like a sailor at times at the frustration!   

[SimpleThe1st]

Finally got my settings and hardware tweaked enough to enjoy a dogfight in VR.

 

The VR experience:

The feeling of immersion and spacial awareness in VR makes a big difference to your capabilities when flying In a dogfight. You really understand the size of the aircraft a lot more, get paranoid when searching for fighters, feel much more like you are flying and occasionally even get a little nausea with frame rate drops (if you have a lower end gpu like I do.

 

The good:

 

Improved in VR:

Spatial awareness-

It feels to me like I can locate another fighter much better in the 3 dimensional space in VR. You have a much better concept of where somebody is when you glance at them and also where they are looping back to when they are on your tail. You are much more capable of orientation between your fighter and theirs which leaves you able to pick them up, turn your head, then turn your head back to the space where you have anticipated them to move to. I can say there's almost a bit of a 6th sense when you're on someone's tail about to squeeze the trigger. You can tell that someone is coming up behind you, there's a slight paranoia that I don't find exists as much with track ir. If you ignore it, you get flamed and the feeling is a little more sickening and realistic when it happens due to the immersion level.

 

Gunnery Accuracy-

You're more aware of how far away a plane is which makes leading a target slightly easier. The need to often close one eye and use your sighting eye eliminates the awareness a little, but makes aiming feel much more realistic. Sort of like looking down old gun cam footage (With the decreased resolution of VR). That feeling alone makes it a bit more realistic. You feel like you are aiming from inside something, rather than pointing a sight at something.

 

Ground attack-

It's much easier to tell the distance to the ground and trees when in vr. You're not likely to pull up as late when fixated on a target on a strafing run. You can really tell how far away it is and also what your rate of closure is. I haven't tried flying bombers yet, but I can see that being a tail gunner is probably pretty fun in VR and dive bombing might be super fun as well.

 

The Bad:

-The Graphics

It's blurry... there's a big downgrade from 1080p and if you're a 4K gamer, you're not going to be happy about the image quality. I don't have a high end GPU, but things like screen door effect, god rays, and pixelation do cut back on the immersion. I don't feel like the narrower field of view is an issue as you flew with goggles on anyway back then, so if anything, it helps with the immersion.

 

-Lower FPS

Can be an issue that causes nausea especially if there's a dip below 45fps. If you've got anything less than a 980ti, I would say you'll be experiencing this. VR requires higher rendering capabilities and Il2 seems to spread the load over the CPU, RAM and GPU so you'll need to have RAM speed over 2000mhz. I had to upgrade mine from 1330mhz as it was the cheapest way to get more fps for me (without dropping another $800-$1000!). I have a GTX 970 and sorely wish I had at least a 1070 to make things look clearer. Gauges are harder to read (I have 20/10 vision which is much better than 20/20 so I pick up every little graphic bug and stutter). The main reason to have the higher end graphics card is to super sample and improve the ability to make out these details. You'll be spending endless amounts of time tinkering with settings, overclocking, chasing bugs all hoping to improve your graphics and frame rate. This has for sure cut back on my ability to just enjoy it at the moment, so you'd be better to make sure you have the hardware to keep the FPS up.

 

Aircraft ID-

Much more difficult. You'll be more aware of where planes are, but not know who they are until you're up close about to fire. It's also very hard to find them at distance (not sure if this is the case with a better graphics card, but it's not going to compare to even 1080p. This may improve with the next generation, but you'll be dropping a lot of money to get the components to run it.

 

 

Overview:

VR is undoubtably the future for Flight Sims. As haptics improve things are going to get even better. There's a Japanese scientist who has figure out how to simulate inversion via electrode pulses through temples/necks. I would predict that the next gen of VR is going to include more than a graphical update. Think of current gen VR as basic flight training before that next generation brings on the real combat. If you like ultra realistic graphics, stick with track ir.

If you're more interested in feeling a bit more like you're there and bring on more feelings like a pilot would get, start moving to vr. Don't fee like it's absolutely necessary yet though, especially if you currently have a lot of hardware for perfect graphics. If you're already coming from low res, then for sure go for it (less than 720p already, or you haven't been in flight sims for the last 7 years).

 

Now I love me some good graphics, but I haven't plugged my trackir back in yet I feel like the act of heated combat is better in vr, cruising and enjoying the view are better in track ir.

 

Oh, there's also a lot of other experiences and games in VR that are game changers as well, first person shooters are great!

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Agreed, excellent write up.

[SimpleThe1st]

In saying that, if CLOD team fusion 5 gets VR implementation with a way to look at the instruments in cockpit and select or flick them, then just take my money!!

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Well written SimpleThe1st. I think you covered most points about the experience of VR.

 

Spotting is easier until you increase SS or AA as the dots start to become blended and less obvious. ID is slightly better at increased SS.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Really? Ill have to shut off AA and test that out.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

If I don't get called into Houston I plan on posting my review this evening.

[AcesHigh]

After the BOK update tonight I will probably never fly using my monitors again with trackir, BOK with rift is simply amazing.   Go to best buy get an rift, take it home try it out, if you don't like it take it back but do yourself a favor and try it with BOK

[Remontti]

Recently I've been flying more and more with TrackIR. While the Rift is great for immersion, I seem to prefer the high image quality and smooth performance. I agree what SimpleThe1st wrote above.

 

One thing is worth mentioning that annoys me more than previously. With monitor the cockpit frame blocks your view much more than should. In VR you have seperate views for both eyes and the cockpit frame doesn't usually block the view for both eyes.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I am playing in VR and I disagree with all negatives that SimpleThe1st wrote about above. Here are the reasons why, and solutions to it:

 

He clearly didn't know how to properly set up his VR experience yet, and even if he did, his computer is way too outdated to pull a reasonable medium-quality VR experience off. I must be frank and honest, so that you also know what you can improve, SimpleThe1st: An i7 4790k is not going to cut it, the GTX 970 with 4GB is way too slow, and so is the DDR3 RAM at just 2400MHz. That's a collective of three bottlenecks. Make no mistake, IL-2 is very very very demanding - for casual and easy Counterstrike-like VR titles, the system is probably just enough. It is not for IL-2 VR at proper quality.

 

All three mentioned disadvantages can be mitigated or eliminated:

 

Con 2)

SimpleThe1st already presented some solutions in his second sentence on this point himself. First, a faster CPU and RAM are in order for the preset "High". A first or second latest generation Intel CPU is necessary, so either a good Coffee Lake or Kaby Lake, coupled with at least 3200MHz DDR4 RAM. The CPU bottleneck disappears above roughly 4.6GHz on an i7 7700K, we have found out. The RAM bottleneck disappears above 3000-3200MHz. This will eliminate most FPS dropping below roughly 90 on an SS multiplier of 1.0, even in complex scenery at preset "High". The people testing in chiliwili's test-thread on the balapan track with these configuration scored averages of more than 85fps, with around 3 seconds of menu time at the end of the test track dragging the result down from 90. See the thread for confirmation.

 

Con 1) and 3) 

Once you break the 2.9 Super-Sampling barrier (SteamVR SS) with a minimum of a good sample of an overclocked GTX 1080, both issues disappear. It is of utmost importance that you disable ingame AA, as well as Sharpen, SSAO, HDR, keep Gamma at 1.0 or 0.9. Keep Terrain at 4x and Terrain Sharpen on.

This will, together with at least 2.9 SS (I run at 3.2), eliminate: Pixelation and with it unexpectedly the screendoor effect. The image won't be as blurry as on standard settings, and your eyes will start focusing on the objects in VR, like gauges, other planes, etc., so your brain forgets about the screendoor effect completely. A bare minimum of graphical quality for this seems to be needed.

Disabling AA and Sharpen will improve the spotting mannigfold - targets do not blend into the background anymore due to "AA off", and are larger and easier to ID due to "Sharpen off". Welcome to spotting stuff flying beneath you on the deck - while you are at 5km.

Disabling HDR, SSAO, and keeping the Gamma at a steady value together with a very high SS >2.9 makes IDing targets as easy as before. A short period of adaption will help this, you need maybe 1 to 2 weeks to readjust to proper identification - you basically have to relearn it. The blurriness will be all gone. See the thread of SS comparison for confirmation.

 

That is all.

Edited September 8, 2017 by 2./JG51_Fenris_Wolf

[Marrond]

I would wait for eye tracking to become a standard in VR (with Foveated rendering being an actual thing - quite frankly I hope eye tracking will take off in general because of how much it adds to the experience when done properly) and thus enabling use of 8k resolution with current top hardware. I love my Vive but sad truth about it is that you simply see more on 4k 55'' screen - Vive is great for immersing yourself in single player or flying non-combat missions though.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

He clearly didn't know how to properly set up his VR experience yet, and even if he did, his computer is way too outdated to pull a reasonable medium-quality VR experience off. I must be frank and honest, so that you also know what you can improve, SimpleThe1st: An i7 4790k is not going to cut it, the GTX 970 with 4GB is way too slow, and so is the DDR3 RAM at just 2400MHz. That's a collective of three bottlenecks.

 

Hey, the 4790K is not a bottleneck. That CPU has a STMark of 2530 at base clock 4.0GHz. And the 7700K has a STMArk of 2581 at base clock 4.2GHz

 

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

 

When you OC the 4790K to 4.6 you achieve a STMark of 2771, and when you OC the 7700K to 4.6 you achieve a STMark of 2688.

As you know the most important factor for a Rig is to have a good STMark. 

 

In the SimpleThe1st rig there is something no going well that we don´t know, but for sure it is not the CPU.

 

A 4790K is perfectly valid to play VR at High settings. But you need a decent GPU and fast RAM as well.

 

My CPU cooler is not large (my case is MicroATX) so I could not go too much beyond 4.6 Ghz. But I am sure that with a better CPU cooler I could go to 4.8 and perhaps higher. Almost matching the performance of the 7700K.

 

One weakness of the 4790K is that it has to run with DDR3 RAM and it is difficult (or expensive to find) speed higher than 3000.

 

It would be nice if people owning a 4790K with nice CPU cooler can OC to 4.8 and run the performance test:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29322-measuring-rig-performance-common-baseline/

[chiliwili69]

More on the 4790K.

I have just put all fans manually at 100% and OC a bit more and run only the Passmark Single Threaded Mark:

 

OC 4.7Ghz  STMark: 2826

OC 4.8Ghz  STMark: 2889

OC 4.9Ghz  STMark: 2945

 

The 7700K at 4.9Ghz gives a STMark=2874.

So, from CPU perspective I would say that a 4790K is better than a 7700K for the same clock speed. And for the same clock speed it is most likely to give more fps (having same RAM speed, same GPU and enough CPU cooling).

 

During the short CPU STMArk test the CPU temperatures were in the 45-60 C. I will need to see how can I mantain this temps more time when playing BOS.

[dburne]

If you can get a 4790k to run stable at 4.8-4.9 GHz , you have certainly accomplished something.

[Avyx]

I'm still not sure if the OC vs default will help with more fps

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Plenty of data from people taking benchmarks shows that OC the CPU results in FPS increase.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

I'm still not sure if the OC vs default will help with more fps

 

I was wondering the same some months ago and then run my own tests:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29881-overclocking-4790k-better-bos-performance/?p=485296

 

 Other people have run also their test in VR (and monitor) and they get a substantial fps when they OC:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gJmnz_nVxI6_dG_UYNCCpZVK2-f8NBy-y1gia77Hu_k

 

You have the same 4790K than me, so, if you have not tried OC and have a good CPU cooler you can use MSI Command Center to perform OC in and easy way.

If you still have not the Rift/Vive (or other), you can experiment just with monitor.

[Avyx]

I just ordered the Noctua NH-D15, when i get it, i will give it a try to OC it to 4,7 - 4,8 GHz

Thank you

[chiliwili69]

 

 

Noctua NH-D15

 

That´s a nice CPU air cooler. Better than some liquid coolers. I  will be interested in knowing how far you can go.

While it is one his way you can try to run the performance test before OC. In VR and in monitor.

The instructions are here: 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29322-measuring-rig-performance-common-baseline/

[Urra]

 

dburne, when you play DCS, you have to use the keyboard, too. No matter what.

There are a lot of commands.

Tell me please, about the VR resolution. I read some reviews about, but can't understand exactly, because VR has 2 " displays "

What's the resolution for one single display - VR ?

I'm confused when VR owners say " the resolution is a step back "

Why ? VR has such a small display

Next batch of headsets is releasing Oct 17 for windows 10 with better resolution. I will read reviews and hope to purchase one if they work. Currently with oculus you see the wire mesh between pixels.

[Avyx]

That´s a nice CPU air cooler. Better than some liquid coolers. I  will be interested in knowing how far you can go.

While it is one his way you can try to run the performance test before OC. In VR and in monitor.

The instructions are here: 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29322-measuring-rig-performance-common-baseline/

Can i run this test, without VR too ?

Next batch of headsets is releasing Oct 17 for windows 10 with better resolution. I will read reviews and hope to purchase one if they work. Currently with oculus you see the wire mesh between pixels.

Me too, Lion.

I hope to purchase one, if it's okay.

[chiliwili69]

 

 

Can i run this test, without VR too ?

 

Yes, you can run the test only in monitor. The instructions are after the VR instructions.

In the results spreadsheet you will that there is a special tab for "monitor only" test results. You will see that people has been experimenting with different GPUs and OCs.

With the performance you achieve in monitor you can have a good guess about the performance you will achieve in VR. (basically half of fps)

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Chili, have you stress tested your OC over the period of 2-3h on heavy server load on high details (Wings for an evening)? If so, impressive. If not, showing of a big e-peen but only lasting 1 minutes, ¡no tenemos (bastante) potencia para la cama!, tienes que saberlo 

Next batch of headsets is releasing Oct 17 for windows 10 with better resolution. I will read reviews and hope to purchase one if they work. Currently with oculus you see the wire mesh between pixels.

 

The wire-mesh between pixels is called "Screen Door Effect" and according to reviewers it is higher on the new batch of Windows headsets than on Rift/Vive. The reason is that they have square pixel frames, which disallow your brain to look through them.

[Avyx]

What about TrackIR 5 + nVidia 3D vision ?

What do you think, guys ?

[Avyx]

Would the immersion be between Trackir and VR, with TrackIR + nVidia 3D vision?

[BeastyBaiter]

No where near the same level. The thing is, when using VR, you are sitting in the plane rather than sitting at your desk looking at a monitor. It's a totally different perspective and short of having a fully enclosed cockpit simulator, I don't think it's possible to get anywhere close to a VR experience with a normal monitor, not even a 3d one.