Bf 109 - what am I missing?

[Herne]

you'll never forget that first time you dive on target, to find that you are now going too fast, and that the controls are too heavy to pull out of the dive

but that can be even worse in a Yak, when you lose your ailerons, and elevator, and can't even open the canopy to bail 

[Dutchvdm]

you'll never forget that first time you dive on target, to find that you are now going too fast, and that the controls are too heavy to pull out of the dive

 

but that can be even worse in a Yak, when you lose your ailerons, and elevator, and can't even open the canopy to bail 

 

Exactly that! That's what i like about the FW to much. It just keeps going and stay's so controllable.

 

Grt M 

[Guest deleted@83466]

In reference to the Yak1b

 

 

 

 

Still not as good a performer? What more advantages do you want? 

 

It has a faster turn rate

It has a smaller turn radius

It is as fast on the deck

It has significantly better energy retention

Its guns are more devastating to the enemy

It has higher durability

It is more stable with less wobble after control input

It has substantially better cockpit visibility

It has vastly better stability at low speeds, especially with flaps deployed.

 

What it lacks,

Climb rate

Top speed at med-high altitudes

Maximum dive speed

Top speed on the deck for the 1 minute duration of emergency power from the F4.

Engine/cooling system automation

 

Lets not try paint the Yak1b as lacking in its own advantages to combat the 109.

 

A post like this is really astonishing...The 109 can outclimb, out-dive, and outrun the Yak-1b in all circumstances, and you act like these are just minor little things!  Poor Luftwaffe pilots, having to fly such an outmatched aircraft like the 109!

 

Yak 1b pilots can succeed against 109's with good teamwork, smart tactics, surprise attacks, and sometimes it just comes down to the pilot having superior aim or reflexes than the other guy, but I would suggest that anyone who flies the 109 and believes they are fighting with some kind of handicap, probably has not spent a great deal of time flying the Yak online.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Iceworm

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

 

and outrun the Yak-1b in all circumstances

 

Taken from Han's specifications post -

 

109F4

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Combat: 522 km/h

109G2

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Combat: 530 km/h

109G4

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Emergency: 540 km/h (1 Minute)
Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Combat: 517 km/h

 

Yak1B

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Nominal, 2550 RPM: 530 km/h

 

Tell me how long it would take a 109 to use its speed advantage on the deck here to be outside of guns range.

 

 

 

As for dive performance, someone posted graphs on dive rates and the Yak accelerates in a dive very well. Again, for how long will you sustain over 750km hour to escape. 1 minute before you are running out of altitude?

What is astonishing is not me me crying about being a "Poor Luftwaffe" pilot in an outmatched plane as you like to put it, its you guys failing to see that you have a large number of advantages to use against the 109... but insist on trying to paint your planes as being the underdog in every combat situation and trying to paint Luftwaffe pilots as the complainers.

 

Find yourself in a position where you didn't have perfect situational awareness flying a 109 and tell me how fast that climb rate or speed on the deck is going to get you out of a bad situation with a Yak1b on your tail.

[Guest deleted@83466]

Do you think that you ought to just be able to jam the throttle forward to the stops and jump to lightspeed?  Let's be clear about "emergency" power.  At maximum power (1.42 ata) you have about a minute.  At lesser ata's you can remain in "emergency" or "combat" power regimes anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes, so don't make it sound like it's an On/Off thing.  Hey, sometimes there is nothing you can do and you just get yourself in a bad fix, but if a 109 pilot is routinely finding himself in situations from which there is no escape, then I think he is doing something wrong.

 

 

 

Find yourself in a position where you didn't have perfect situational awareness flying a 109 and tell me how fast that climb rate or speed on the deck is going to get you out of a bad situation with a Yak1b on your tail.

 

Better yet, find yourself in a Yak 1b in the same situation, and tell me how "advantaged" you are.   In the 109 you have the chance to get out.  In the Yak, you can't get out.  You might be able to win a horizontal turnfight if the 109 pisses away his energy and indulges you in this, but no smart 109 pilot will do that.  Oh, and remember to be careful with your ammo, because you've got about 3, maybe 4 good bursts...

 

I did take a moment to look at your stats on the WoL and was unable to find a single sortie flown by you in a Yak.  Maybe there are other servers that you fly the Yak in, don't know...Maybe you can surprise me with stats that show how easy it is for you to exploit all of the myriad advantages of the Yak and mop the floor with 109's...But what I'm guessing here is that if you spent a little more time in a Yak, you might develop a greater appreciation for what you've got in the 109.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Iceworm

[VesseL]

 

If 109 dont have energy advantage, it cant outrun or outclimb yak( or spit or la5). And if 109 outdive its going to lose energy advantage and have to run for mommy. in 109 you have to be very careful not to lose alt (energy) advantage, or it will be turning time. 1v1, 109 v yak the winner will be the one who has energy advantage, if the pilots are egually skilled. But In MP the situation is usually not 1v1. We have also 3 different 109, with different turn times.109 is great fighter, maybe the best, but its not easy.Especially not easy turnfighter.It really need to turn ball centered and fly coordinated or it will stall or lose energy fast.

[Finkeren]

If 109 dont have energy advantage, it cant outrun or outclimb yak( or spit or la5)

This is simply untrue. The 109s (at least F4 through G4) have superior climb rate at any speed and accellerate waaaaay better.

[Guest deleted@83466]

This is simply untrue.

 

When did that ever stop somebody from posting something on the Intertoobs?

[VesseL]

 

If i add that without energy advantage 109 need atleast 800m separation to yak to outclimb or outrun yak, is that more true. Forgot to mention that.

[Guest deleted@83466]

If i add that without energy advantage 109 need atleast 800m separation to yak to outclimb or outrun yak, is that more true. Forgot to mention that.

 

No.  The 109 can outrun and outclimb the Yak even if they are separated by 1 meter

 

You fly it smart and use the abilities of the 109 to take yourself out of the other guy's gun envelope;  The 109's speed, acceleration, dive ability etc allow you to do that better than you can do with the Russian planes.   I mean, what do some of you guy's want, or think the 109 should be able to do?  Outrun bullets?

Edited August 18, 2017 by Iceworm

[VesseL]

 

You worm. But then yak will shoot the 109, so it cant outrun.

[150GCT_Veltro]

The 109 superior climb rate is often vanified by the sniping capabilities of the VVS weapons, and the 109 DM is still a bit suspicicous, really too fragile.

Edited August 18, 2017 by 150GCT_Veltro

[FTC_Riksen]

I have no doubt in my mind that the 109 is superior to the russian planes currently available, except on deck but only if you know how to use it. Although it can certainly hold its own in turn fights, I usually stay away from those mainly because it dramatically reduces my SA. Some people consider a good or ace pilot to be the one who can outmaneuver and dogfight his enemy but no one can survive in turnfights for long. You shoot down 10 enemies and maybe die only once but you still die eventually. If you concentrate in safer practices, like BnZ, you can for sure reach 20, 40, 70 kill streak and the 109 is the perfect plane for that. Speed is life my friends ... virtual life at least ...
I'm certainly not a good dogfighter and I dont bother trying to be one because I rarely have to use any tactics to defend myself. For me, if you place urself in this kind of scenario, you have already made too many mistakes. Does that mean I never turn fight with anyone? Nope. I still do, but in my own terms (when I have higher energy, speed, and the surprise element on my side). It's also important to make these encounters last very few seconds so deflection shooting is a great plus here. The faster you disengage, the better your chances to maintain SA and energy. However, the best approach is always a vertical fight. Drag your enemy up and make him stall or become very slow trying to follow you and eventually you are going to be able to make a pass. But this requires lots of patience ... lots of discipline. 109 is just too fragile to risk anything else, especially a slow turn fight. That's the best approach with the 109 IMHO. Only engage enemies at ur own terms and avoid at all costs to stay in fights with the same level of energy as ur enemy. Whowever said air combat is fair is a damn liar ...

Edited August 18, 2017 by 4./JG52_Riksen

[VesseL]

You fly it smart and use the abilities of the 109 to take yourself out of the other guy's gun envelope; The 109's speed, acceleration, dive ability etc allow you to do that better than you can do with the Russian planes. I mean, what do some of you guy's want, or think the 109 should be able to do? Outrun bullets?

Im pretty sure most of us all want historically accurate planes, all planes. For some reason LW pilots are stamped whiners who want uber planes. That is not true.Im ok how the planes do now. I just tell my opinion, how i feel the planes are flying at the moment. And im no expert.

 

edit. You are right, if flyed smart, 109 is hard to kill.

Edited August 18, 2017 by VesseL

[DD_Arthur]

I have no doubt in my mind that the 109 is superior to the russian planes currently available, except on deck but only if you know how to use it. Although it can certainly hold its own in turn fights, I usually stay away from those mainly because it dramatically reduces my SA. Some people consider a good or ace pilot to be the one who can outmaneuver and dogfight his enemy but no one can survive like that for long. You shoot down 10 enemies and maybe die only once but if you concentrate in more safe practices, like BnZ, you can for sure reach 20, 40, 70 kill streak and the 109 is the perfect plane for that. Speed is life my friends ... life ...

I'm certainly not a good dogfighter and I dont want to be because I rarely have to use any tactic to defend myself. For me, if you place urself in this kind of scenario, you have already made too many mistakes. Does that mean I never turn fight with anyone? Nope. I still do, but in my own terms (when I have higher energy, speed, etc). It's also important to make these encounters last very few seconds. The faster you disengage, the better your chances to maintain SA and energy. Thats the best approach with the 109 IMHO and however said air combat is fair is a damn liar ... you have to be unfair to be successful

 

 

@Riksen;  exactly right. The art of the fighter pilot

[Herne]

I have no doubt in my mind that the 109 is superior to the russian planes currently available, except on deck but only if you know how to use it. Although it can certainly hold its own in turn fights, I usually stay away from those mainly because it dramatically reduces my SA. Some people consider a good or ace pilot to be the one who can outmaneuver and dogfight his enemy but no one can survive like that for long. You shoot down 10 enemies and maybe die only once but if you concentrate in more safe practices, like BnZ, you can for sure reach 20, 40, 70 kill streak and the 109 is the perfect plane for that. Speed is life my friends ... life ...

I'm certainly not a good dogfighter and I dont want to be because I rarely have to use any tactic to defend myself. For me, if you place urself in this kind of scenario, you have already made too many mistakes. Does that mean I never turn fight with anyone? Nope. I still do, but in my own terms (when I have higher energy, speed, etc). It's also important to make these encounters last very few seconds. The faster you disengage, the better your chances to maintain SA and energy. Thats the best approach with the 109 IMHO and however said air combat is fair is a damn liar ... you have to be unfair to be succesful

 

 

Just checked your WoL stats, they are way better than mine.

 

I hope those 10 disconnects are not indicative of you combat logging whenever you loose the advantage though, seeing a lot of this lately, and I hope you do not condone that kind of behaviour 

[FTC_Riksen]

My connection just plainly sucks in WoL ... plus WoL is not the best place to judge someone's skill. I dont think anyplace actually is. You have to fly with someone to be able to judge that I think. People have good and bad days or sometimes they just fell like flying for fun without having to worry about living or dying. But if stats is what you are looking for:

 

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot.php?name=4./JG52_Riksen

 

Cheers

[Herne]

My connection just plainly sucks in WoL ... plus WoL is not the best place to judge someone's skill. I dont think anyplace actually is. You have to fly with someone to be able to judge that I think. People have good and bad days or sometimes they just fell like flying for fun without having to worry about living or dying. But if stats is what you are looking for:

 

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot.php?name=4./JG52_Riksen

 

Cheers

 

Very nice ! done your fair share of ground pounding too. Do you alternate LW / VVS for TAW or play LW exclusively ?

[FTC_Riksen]

Mostly LW. I made an account for VVS in TAW as well but to be honest I barely flew with Riksenovsky lol ... VVS is definitely not easy mode, trust me

[BOO]

I can vouch that Riksen is NOT a disco king.  He's the safest leader Ive flown with due to his SA and thinking. And as a crap 109 pilot with no SA it takes a lot to make me feel safe!! What he's modestly put is exactly how he flies. 

[Herne]

Mostly LW. I made an account for VVS in TAW as well but to be honest I barely flew with Riksenovsky lol ... VVS is definitely not easy mode, trust me

 

Last campaign was my first one, I plan to alternate playing exclusively for one side for the duration of the whole campaign. Next one I will fly VVS.

 

Put some hours into VVS airframes in preparation, for TAW, some aircraft I am absolutely hopeless with, P40 and mig 3 in my hands are just LW fodder, but i'm looking forward to it none the less.

 

Anyway, I've taken this thread off topic for long enough, so back to the 109's vices for the benefit of the OP :- 

[KaC_Richard_Rogers]

Taken from Han's specifications post -

 

109F4

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Combat: 522 km/h

109G2

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Combat: 530 km/h

109G4

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Emergency: 540 km/h (1 Minute)

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Combat: 517 km/h

 

Yak1B

Maximum true air speed at sea level, engine mode - Nominal, 2550 RPM: 530 km/h

 

Tell me how long it would take a 109 to use its speed advantage on the deck here to be outside of guns range.

 

 

 

As for dive performance, someone posted graphs on dive rates and the Yak accelerates in a dive very well. Again, for how long will you sustain over 750km hour to escape. 1 minute before you are running out of altitude?

What is astonishing is not me me crying about being a "Poor Luftwaffe" pilot in an outmatched plane as you like to put it, its you guys failing to see that you have a large number of advantages to use against the 109... but insist on trying to paint your planes as being the underdog in every combat situation and trying to paint Luftwaffe pilots as the complainers.

 

Find yourself in a position where you didn't have perfect situational awareness flying a 109 and tell me how fast that climb rate or speed on the deck is going to get you out of a bad situation with a Yak1b on your tail.

 

Tripwire,

 

Great figures for a standing start comparison which have little to do with the realities of dog fighting in WoL etc. Facts like statistics can be a wonderful thing to illuminate and educate and then they can be used like this...

 

Is the 750km for the German plane or the Yak? For the German he would have to be holding back on the throttle and for the Yak, I would have expected you to know better and that it looses it ailerons at 720km+.

 

As to the "large number of advantages", please do tell.

 

I feel your hubris is born of living in an echo chamber and I feel that you would have more respect and be less outraged if you manned up flew the Russians for a month. But I doubt that would ever happen because deep down we all know it's no picnic flying Russian.

[StG2_Manfred]

Tripwire,

 

Great figures for a standing start comparison which have little to do with the realities of dog fighting in WoL etc. Facts like statistics can be a wonderful thing to illuminate and educate and then they can be used like this...

 

Is the 750km for the German plane or the Yak? For the German he would have to be holding back on the throttle and for the Yak, I would have expected you to know better and that it looses it ailerons at 720km+.

 

As to the "large number of advantages", please do tell.

 

I feel your hubris is born of living in an echo chamber and I feel that you would have more respect and be less outraged if you manned up flew the Russians for a month. But I doubt that would ever happen because deep down we all know it's no picnic flying Russian.

 

This is not serious, is it?   Teddy_Bear whatever you take, I urgently recommend you to halve the dose 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

you'll never forget that first time you dive on target, to find that you are now going too fast, and that the controls are too heavy to pull out of the dive

 

but that can be even worse in a Yak, when you lose your ailerons, and elevator, and can't even open the canopy to bail

My very first "kills" on WoL came like this. Two yaks came in from above me, so I dove down to try to escape. My controls got locked up, but I was able to use my stabiliser to nose up a little, and got control just in time to pull out at about 200-300 meters.

 

I looked behind me to see if the yaks were still there, and I got to watch one, then the other, dive straight into the ground behind me.

 

The server didn't credit me of course, but you can bet I put in claim in for both once I returned to base. Lord knows I haven't gotten many since!

Edited August 19, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Livai]

Don't fly into my bullets -

[Thad]

I have no doubt in my mind that the 109 is superior to the russian planes currently available, except on deck but only if you know how to use it. Although it can certainly hold its own in turn fights, I usually stay away from those mainly because it dramatically reduces my SA. Some people consider a good or ace pilot to be the one who can outmaneuver and dogfight his enemy but no one can survive in turnfights for long. You shoot down 10 enemies and maybe die only once but you still die eventually. If you concentrate in safer practices, like BnZ, you can for sure reach 20, 40, 70 kill streak and the 109 is the perfect plane for that. Speed is life my friends ... virtual life at least ...

I'm certainly not a good dogfighter and I dont bother trying to be one because I rarely have to use any tactics to defend myself. For me, if you place urself in this kind of scenario, you have already made too many mistakes. Does that mean I never turn fight with anyone? Nope. I still do, but in my own terms (when I have higher energy, speed, and the surprise element on my side). It's also important to make these encounters last very few seconds so deflection shooting is a great plus here. The faster you disengage, the better your chances to maintain SA and energy. However, the best approach is always a vertical fight. Drag your enemy up and make him stall or become very slow trying to follow you and eventually you are going to be able to make a pass. But this requires lots of patience ... lots of discipline. 109 is just too fragile to risk anything else, especially a slow turn fight. That's the best approach with the 109 IMHO. Only engage enemies at ur own terms and avoid at all costs to stay in fights with the same level of energy as ur enemy. Whowever said air combat is fair is a damn liar ...

 

Very wise attitude, observations and flying practices shared here.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I have only died repeatedly due to flying *after celebrations* on 2 occasions in August (drunk). That still doesn't make me good though. Those little green Ninjas are dangerous turners. Best avoid turning with them. Any LW handbook states that.

[kilen]

Hi all,

 

Just started playing this game since building a PC to be able to run it and absolutely loving it so far.

 

I currently have BOS and BOK plus the P-40 and am just waiting for payday to get BOM.

 

Having only been flying a week or so I am trying out all the planes I currently own in single player and online and am only starting to get to grips with their little idiosyncrasies and problems that need overcoming.

 

Saying that though, when flying any of the Bf 109's in my hanger I have yet to experience any such issues.  Taking off seems very straightforward, engine management is nil pretty much with no dealing with RPM, cooling or mixture, it's very stable in a dogfight and has great firepower and ammo.

 

Are there any downsides to this plane other than not being able to open the Canopy in flight?!  It feels like I'm cheating a bit when using this online because if feels like "easy" mode is engaged.

 

Can someone please help me see the full picture?  What is it I'm not getting about this plane?

 

perso, i started BoS & BoM since may2017, only flown with axis planes (F2/F4/G2/Fw190A3 are done, 100% xp won ; and i am currently flying Mc202/E7/Ju87D3).

(remark: bombers and mostly russian fighters will be for next, i want to have finished all german fighters & CAS first... its true there are more controls to manage, but its not huge, just need to understand a bit more basics of engine & aeronautical laws to master properly russian planes, but no more... german planes can ALSO require much skill to be able to trully master them imo).

and i only play in expert & full realism, wich change much about navigation & impact of weather, find/id/dont loose targets in clouds or storms without IFF, etc etc... wich has a huge impact about how u feel the game and how u assimilate assets/lacks of planes and how dogfights happen... and thats a big asset of BoS, it can be a full arcade game for fun and instant action, but beside being a pretty realist and complex simulator about sensations... so, it depends much about options first i think.

 

but if u like full realism, all these tips should help ya:

 

for now, it tooks me easally 2 full months to completly remake all controls as i wanted them and id what was the differences with 1946 ;

but now my hotas is okay, and muscle memory get use of them, it works pretty well.

so, i strongly advice to take time to do it too (its boring, long, etc etc... but its a true asset next, on long term its really necessary) (y)

 

about 109s,

i would say first, there is a major difference between E7 (totally obsolete, only able to dominate I16s with good pilot's skill, and even there its not easy, but none of others... overwhelm in dogfight with 109E7 is particulary hard imo, such as russian fighters are better in all aspects compared with).

for all 3 others (F2/F4/G2), they are competitive and pretty balanced about assets/disadvantages vs others.

not enough faster to Boom & Zoom tactic like the Fw190 must do, but enough manoeuvrable to deal with Ru figthers in close rolling dogfights without trully be better... globaly, its a "balanced plane".

and historicaly, his first asset was industrial, to be very upgratable and always (more or less) competitive after many years of war with latest versions.

but about flight, no real asset, no real lack... wich can be seen as a + or a -, depend of player & context, etc...

so, except E7 version, others 109 depend mostly of how u manage flight with 109s, and how u get use of it.

 

technicaly beside, i would say:

1) (+) big assets are climbing rate compared with opponents, its maybe the only "true rethorical advantage" a 109 can find with opponents... in practice, its not enough decisive to really see that as an asset to dominate imo

(AND ! watch out if u try to distance ennemies by climbing and make them stall 1st there: if they are too far from ur 6h, u give them perfect occasion to comeback and get ur back easally with better speed if u start to climb, and before u get enough altitude to force them to climb too if they want to continue the pursuit, etc... so, be sure they are close enough and be sure to climb hgigh and not straight ahead if u want to play that game, its not so easy to win like that, it can become a suicidal tactic if u do it bad, etc... so, carefull if u want to try that asset in defense).

 

2) (-) G2 worse bad point is cockpit views (= very poor ! when u play only inside cockpit and without IFF echos in the sky by all weathers, its a true nightmare in dogfight with 109G2).

beside that, its the only first version to have a powerfull engine... fly for weeks only with an F4, then use one time the G2, u will feel the difference during first flights immedialty.

but its not overwhelming anymore... not enough to crush a La5 or a Yak1B just by G2 new engine power. :/

 

3) (-) 109E7 has a very poor 20mm canon (few ammos, but mostly, very low velocity ! ...be sure to be very close to try to openfire with 109E7 20mm, or ur shells will go down below his back, faster than Mg151/20mm of F or G versions would do), u must strike from closer with a 109E7 to hit in dogfight than u must in a F2, F4 or G2 coz their Mg151/20mm is a very efficient canon, having very good velocity compared with the old one from 109E7, etc.

 

4) (=) be sure to understand and master stabilizer cursor with Me109s, like for Mc202VIII and some others, stabilizer of tail wing has a major impact in flight !

it replace trims in practice, like trims are ruled on the ground with 109s or Mc202s and cant be controlled in flight... but stabilizer has exactly same effect in practice, both are very usefull in dogfight about "efficency and energy/velocity" of ur plane.

to climb or dive, when u master and get use of it, u should use very few power throttle... only stabilizer cursor instead, or close.

so, be sure u added it in major controls of hotas and took habit to fly with usually, its necessary if u want to be effective and have good climb/dive rates without waste power/velocity or energy/airspeed, etc.

its not really complex to understand, just need practicing, after it becomes instinctive and ur 109 will be much more efficient in manoeuvring and in dogfights than if fly without use stabilizer, etc.

 

perso, i play on X52pro hotas, so i puted the stabilizer control on axis R (wich is on the top of my main throttle, just in center-right-up, easally accessible with my left thumb).

up to u to know where and on wich axis to custom the stabilizer control, but u need it, so i strongly advice u to do it and learn to fly with.

 

5) (=) a last detail, i also tip u to off the back sit armor if u fly inside cockpit, its useless and back visibility is more important than hypothetic protection from back of ur head.

up to u to see, ofc, but i think its a better choice... confort of flight and efficency in dogfight to id targets and check around easally/fastly without being pissed by armor is more important imo, etc.

 

i guess thats all, i will add more if i think about later.

hope it will help ya

cya

Edited August 25, 2017 by kilen