Bf 109 - what am I missing?

[scram77]

Hi all,

 

Just started playing this game since building a PC to be able to run it and absolutely loving it so far.

 

I currently have BOS and BOK plus the P-40 and am just waiting for payday to get BOM.

 

Having only been flying a week or so I am trying out all the planes I currently own in single player and online and am only starting to get to grips with their little idiosyncrasies and problems that need overcoming.

 

Saying that though, when flying any of the Bf 109's in my hanger I have yet to experience any such issues.  Taking off seems very straightforward, engine management is nil pretty much with no dealing with RPM, cooling or mixture, it's very stable in a dogfight and has great firepower and ammo.

 

Are there any downsides to this plane other than not being able to open the Canopy in flight?!  It feels like I'm cheating a bit when using this online because if feels like "easy" mode is engaged.

 

Can someone please help me see the full picture?  What is it I'm not getting about this plane?

[SYN_Mike77]

Flying German  = easy mode.  So much less to think about.  Don't feel bad, irl those planes were much more automated.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Talking about easy mode, have you tried Yak 1b?

 

Each aircraft has strenghs and weaknesses. The Bf 109 is no exception in that regard (worse roll rate than any VVS fighter + loses a lot of energy in prolonged turn engagements).

[Danziger]

Flying the German planes is a bit less work but shooting with them is a lot of work for me. The cannons have lower velocity so you need to lead a lot more if you are far away. I'm a horrible shooter in German planes but a good flyer. I'm a great shooter in Russian planes but a worse flyer...

[Dutchvdm]

Hi,

 

The 109 does have some quite big disadvantages.

 

- Hard to fly at high speeds (Compared to the Fw-190)

- Visibility to the rear

- Roll rate is not great

 

Grt M

[scram77]

Flying German  = easy mode.  So much less to think about.  Don't feel bad, irl those planes were much more automated.

OK thanks - appreciate the feedback.

 

Talking about easy mode, have you tried Yak 1b?

 

Each aircraft has strenghs and weaknesses. The Bf 109 is no exception in that regard (worse roll rate than any VVS fighter + loses a lot of energy in prolonged turn engagements).

No - have been really tempted to get the Yak 1b as it looks great but I'm not a huge fan of the Yak1 itself.  I prefer the Lagg-3 for some reason.  What does the Yak 1b have going for it? 

 

It was a toss up between the p-40 and the Yak 1b but as the Yak isn't always available online I went for the P-40.

[Finkeren]

The Bf 109 F4/G2 are probably the easiest planes to use well in this sim. That's not to say, that they don't have issues.

 

I see at least 8 major drawbacks of the 109s (all versions really, but primarilly F4 through G4)

 

1. Poor visibility from cockpit, especially backwards.

 

2. Less directionally stable than many other fighters.

 

3. Mediocre roll rate.

 

4. poor elevator authority at high speeds.

 

5. Very limited use of emergency power making it useless for anything other than very quick bursts of acceleration.

 

6. Structurally fragile.

 

7. Any ordinance or gun pods severely lowers performance.

 

8. Bleeds a lot of energy once slats are out.

No - have been really tempted to get the Yak 1b as it looks great but I'm not a huge fan of the Yak1 itself.  I prefer the Lagg-3 for some reason.  What does the Yak 1b have going for it? 

 

 

Compared to the LaGG-3, everything.

 

Still not as good a performer as the later 109s, but it's closing the gap. It flies beautifully and is very tough and forgiving to handling mistakes. Plus it has near perfect 360^o vision, which no other plane in this sim has.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Finkeren

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The Yak-1b is a Yak-1 with better visibility, improved armament and aerodynamic improvements. Yak-1 on steroids, basically.

 

The LaGG-3 is awesome too, quirky but packs a good punch, very damage resistant and kills almost anything in terms of rolling.

[scram77]

OK then - it's decided!  I'll get the Yak 1B!!

 

Cheers everyone!

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Excellent choice scram, it's definitely the most fun to fly acrobatics in and it's excellent in combat too.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Another Great Fighter is the Machi MC 202.

 

Not so easy to fly ( because you need to manage more systems yourself ) than the German fighters ( other than the E-7 which requires manual radiator operation ) but with exceptional qualities.

[Irgendjemand]

Germans and Easymode. So funny.
Well, Nope. I am not going to say anything more. Pointless:P

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Germans and Easymode. So funny.

Well, Nope. I am not going to say anything more. Pointless:P

 

It is pointless because it's just going to be the same baseless shitposting trend you've always followed.

 

The people who actually contributed already touched all of the main points regarding the 109.

 

I agree that the Yak 1-B is the best alternative to the 109 if you're looking for fighter superiority.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[Luftschiff]

I used to think the German planes were easier to fly, but having recently spent most of my time in the allied fighters I find there is little practical difference. The workload is slightly higher if you want optimal performance, but I find most German planes punish tactical mistakes harder (or maybe the russian pilots do) and as a result I find it easier to fight in a russian plane, while getting up/down/to/from the action is more relaxing in the jerry crates. 

 

I certainly don't think the 109 is easy mode, given it's comparative fragility and low velocity cannons. I much prefer the LaGG-3 over most 109's for fighting, though certainly not for flying.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Luftschiff

[scram77]

Thanks all for your opinions.  Certainty didn't mean to imply anything about those that fly the Bf 109's though.

[Voidhunger]

I consider myself a good fighter pilot and Bf109 (except 109E) is far from easy plane to fly for me.

Constant rudder in the banking(mainly to the left),wobbling and the awful visibilty from the cockpit (G variant) is killing me.

But its a Bf109 and I like this plane

[-SF-Disarray]

The relatively low structural stability, in terms of taking fire, the 109 displays is probably its biggest draw back, speaking as a person who flies Soviet more often than German. That said, the thing I see a lot of German pilots wrong is not engaging in a fight. I can't tell you how many German "fighter pilots" have run away from me in a fight that was more or less even. There seems to be a general opinion among these pilots that the 109 only works in an ambush capacity; diving in from on high, shooting your target and then running away. But the 109, and the 190 for that matter, are in fact very capable of sustained fighting with Soviet fighters, especially the 109 F2 and F4. I find it rather frustrating to initiate a fight with a German only to have them run away to mommy.

[StG2_Manfred]

The relatively low structural stability, in terms of taking fire, the 109 displays is probably its biggest draw back, speaking as a person who flies Soviet more often than German. That said, the thing I see a lot of German pilots wrong is not engaging in a fight. I can't tell you how many German "fighter pilots" have run away from me in a fight that was more or less even. There seems to be a general opinion among these pilots that the 109 only works in an ambush capacity; diving in from on high, shooting your target and then running away. But the 109, and the 190 for that matter, are in fact very capable of sustained fighting with Soviet fighters, especially the 109 F2 and F4. I find it rather frustrating to initiate a fight with a German only to have them run away to mommy.

 

Judging from your WoL stats you have not a single experience in a 109

 

I have spare time this evening and I invite you to make duel fights against me on Berloga. You take the 109 and I take your prefered ride the 1b .... and then we'll see if you running to mommy (or dying)

[-SF-Disarray]

You are right, I don't fly the 109 all that often, especially on WOL as the teams are so very often stacked in favor of the Germans when I play. But I'm not without experience in that plane. I'd be careful using WOL stats to judge experience too, if you change sides I'm told they get reset. Plus there are other servers out there.

 

My point still stands, my relatively low stick time in the 109 not withstanding. The 109 is a capable dog-fighter, so there is no reason for pilots to run away so readily as I have seen them do time and again. Also my ping to Berloga is terrible so it probably wouldn't be a very fun fight.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Disarray

[GridiroN]

The relatively low structural stability, in terms of taking fire, the 109 displays is probably its biggest draw back, speaking as a person who flies Soviet more often than German. That said, the thing I see a lot of German pilots wrong is not engaging in a fight. I can't tell you how many German "fighter pilots" have run away from me in a fight that was more or less even. There seems to be a general opinion among these pilots that the 109 only works in an ambush capacity; diving in from on high, shooting your target and then running away. But the 109, and the 190 for that matter, are in fact very capable of sustained fighting with Soviet fighters, especially the 109 F2 and F4. I find it rather frustrating to initiate a fight with a German only to have them run away to mommy.

Since switching to Russia my skills have tripled in a month. Just because they have the better plane doesn't mean they trust they are the better pilot. If anything, my time as Russia has shown me most 109 pilot's don't know what they're doing without an extreme advantage.

 

Especially when you're in a 1B.. an equal or better plane.

Edited August 17, 2017 by GridiroN

[Aap]

That approach comes from Luftwaffe "school book". All German WWII aces, except Marseille and a couple of his followers, preached that approach. There is even a saying that if you are fighting on equal terms, you have already made a mistake.

 

So ask yourself, if the fight is more or less even, should you:

a) use your plane's superior speed and climb rate to turn the even situation to your favor, or

b) fight on the terms of a better turning and more nimble enemy plane to turn the even situation to his favor?

[Guest deleted@50488]

Just as others have suggested in answer to threads I started myself focusing on other aspects of flight behaviour, I believe we should really wait for the upcoming patch, which will, so I hope, dramatically change some of these aspects, and probably turn these remarks useless.

 

We are just days from the release, I guess, so, I am really willing to wait, and see...

 

Less wobbling, better prop effects, stability, ground handling, etc...

Edited August 17, 2017 by jcomm

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It's not a thing with experienced pilots, but newcomers to the 109 are one-dymensional like the Yak-1 newcomers. The former avoid any engagement that doesn't involve a 1000m altitude difference, while the latter chase a fireball like a cat after a laser pointer. This is a byproduct of inaccurate reputations both aircraft has - the "109 is BnZ aircraft only" and "if you fly Russian you can only turn because climb rate".

 

The fact is, while the 109 is indeed vertically better than most Soviet aircraft and the Yak-1 is better horizontally, the difference is so miniscule in practice. Any good 109 pilot knows he can go knife fighting all day long using the Messer's engine to administer an advantage, while any decent Yak-1 pilot will chase the sneaky bounce from altitude over rolling scissors at 100m. The newcomers however fly by reputation rather than tactics.

 

It's so frustrating in big servers! There you really do see 109s disengaging from easy fights and Yaks flying like moths near a light. The problem is when the perpetrators hang onto these bad habits and accept them as universal truths.

[StG2_Manfred]

You are right, I don't fly the 109 all that often, especially on WOL as the teams are so very often stacked in favor of the Germans when I play. But I'm not without experience in that plane. I'd be careful using WOL stats to judge experience too, if you change sides I'm told they get reset. Plus there are other servers out there.

 

My point still stands, my relatively low stick time in the 109 not withstanding. The 109 is a capable dog-fighter, so there is no reason for pilots to run away so readily as I have seen them do time and again. Also my ping to Berloga is terribleso it probably wouldn't be a very fun fight.

 

I looked through your sorties, those are not reset. And yes, stats are only stats and do not say that much about your experience.

 

Isn't Berloga server located in Russia and WoL as well? Where are you from Disarray? I'm admin of TAW server and at the moment no war is running, so I could arrange something there for us. This server is located in Frankfurt / Germany, if this fits better for you.

 

EDIT: I just see there is a Berloga EU server online. It's completely empty and ping is much faster - so no excuses for you

Edited August 17, 2017 by StG2_Manfred

[-SF-Disarray]

I'm on the west coast of the US. I get 300ish ping to Berloga, and about 220 to WOL I think, maybe less. I imagine WOL is closer to me or on a better main line than Berloga but I'm not sure of the specifics. I'm not sure why you are so keen on this fight in the first place, I don't know what you expect to prove with it. I am already contending that the 109 is a more capable dog-fighter than a lot of people who fly it seem to think; the raw data on the planes bear this out. You already know that I'm not as familiar with them as I am with Yaks and MIGs. All I'm saying is more German pilots should be more confident in their plains' abilities and actually engage in a fight rather than running off to the airfield at the first sign of trouble; in any event if I'm the source of that trouble I'll follow you the whole way back.

 

If you really want to do this I'm game, though I'm still not sure what the point is. Working out a time to do it is going to be a bit complex, given the time differences. Though I suspect a weekend would likely prove more advantageous.

[StG2_Manfred]

I'm on the west coast of the US. I get 300ish ping to Berloga, and about 220 to WOL I think, maybe less. I imagine WOL is closer to me or on a better main line than Berloga but I'm not sure of the specifics. I'm not sure why you are so keen on this fight in the first place, I don't know what you expect to prove with it. I am already contending that the 109 is a more capable dog-fighter than a lot of people who fly it seem to think; the raw data on the planes bear this out. You already know that I'm not as familiar with them as I am with Yaks and MIGs. All I'm saying is more German pilots should be more confident in their plains' abilities and actually engage in a fight rather than running off to the airfield at the first sign of trouble; in any event if I'm the source of that trouble I'll follow you the whole way back.

 

If you really want to do this I'm game, though I'm still not sure what the point is. Working out a time to do it is going to be a bit complex, given the time differences. Though I suspect a weekend would likely prove more advantageous.

 

I'm keen to test this out because you make insulting statements like "...running home to mommy". And the raw data is not the complete truth, like the stats. And then you make your kills in the Yak 1b  I fly almost exclusively German planes, so flying the Yak 1b is the same situation for me as for you taking the 109. I just give you the opportunity to prove and underline what you are writing. Showing there is no reason to run home to mommy...

 

Weekend is ahead, PN me which time fits for you. I'm there

[MechMech_Donald]

I do like the 109 flying capabilities. It's easy and stable enough for me.

 

The only real disadvantage i experience with it is that mostly only one hit ends the day. I don't know if it's different in online challenges, because i play SP only. But almost every time i got hit, my engine is severely damaged and within minutes i'm eventually forced to go down.

 

So the result is, that i do avoid any close contact with a certain chance of getting hit, including to run home to mommy for a while. :D

[GridiroN]

I do like the 109 flying capabilities. It's easy and stable enough for me.

 

The only real disadvantage i experience with it is that mostly only one hit ends the day. I don't know if it's different in online challenges, because i play SP only. But almost every time i got hit, my engine is severely damaged and within minutes i'm eventually forced to go down.

 

So the result is, that i do avoid any close contact with a certain chance of getting hit, including to run home to mommy for a while. :D

This is common. The 109 is a glass cannon. It has next to no endurance. I was flying that terrible 1941 map yesterday on WoL hit a 109 he came back at me and I just dodged him until his engine quit.

 

Unlike Russian crates, get a hole in you finishes you.

[VBF-12_Stele]

the lack of rudder trim drives me crazy but the 109's performance more than makes up for it

[MechMech_Donald]

This is common. The 109 is a glass cannon. It has next to no endurance. I was flying that terrible 1941 map yesterday on WoL hit a 109 he came back at me and I just dodged him until his engine quit.

 

Unlike Russian crates, get a hole in you finishes you.

 

 

Yes, it can sometimes easily lead to some frustration, when only one single bullet lost its way to my position and "accidently" hit my engine through the entire plane after 45 minutes.

[216th_Jordan]

From my extended Berloga experience I see tons of smoking 109s fighting for minutes sometimes, taking hits after hits. The 109 is more easily damagable than russian fighters - yes - but it is far from fragile. (It was before it got patched)

 

Go with the G-2 or F-4 and have a field day, same can be done with the Yak-1b, but in different ways: The Yak wants to catch unaware fighters with their pants down and it does that incredibly well. A 109 flown to its strength can easily get away in a high speed climb and reposition or drag the Yak in a vertical fight with enough seperation to turn the roles. The 109 can also be flown very agile and can to a good extent dogfight the Yak-1b, especially at medium speeds I have been outturned by well flown Messers more than I would have liked. If I want to be safe and farm kills, while still engaging in knife fights, I take the F4, if I want to be able to defend my self well while still being able to adequately counterattack and keep the upper hand in extended turnfights I want the Yak-1b.

So just for Berloga statistics and a bit of bragging: In the F4 my record is 37-0, in the Yak-1b it is 24-0. I assume this reflects the reality to a fair extent.

 

That all being said I do not find the 109 easier than the Yak-1b tbh, quite the opposite. The 109 requires precisely coordinated control movements, whereas the Yak is way more forgiving to dirty flying.

Edited August 17, 2017 by 216th_Jordan

[MechMech_Donald]

Of course you can continue fighting with a smoking 109 in multiplayer, because you don't have to get back again to save your life. In a SP campaign things are different. If your 109 starts to light a cigarre, it's time to get back as far as possible, until your engine dies of lung-cancer. And this means end of mission and maybe end of your carreer.

Edited August 17, 2017 by MechMech_Donald

[StG2_Manfred]

From my extended Berloga experience I see tons of smoking 109s fighting for minutes sometimes, taking hits after hits. The 109 is more easily damagable than russian fighters - yes - but it is far from fragile. (It was before it got patched)

 

Go with the G-2 or F-4 and have a field day, same can be done with the Yak-1b, but in different ways: The Yak wants to catch unaware fighters with their pants down and it does that incredibly well. A 109 flown to its strength can easily get away in a high speed climb and reposition or drag the Yak in a vertical fight with enough seperation to turn the roles. The 109 can also be flown very agile and can to a good extent dogfight the Yak-1b, especially at medium speeds I have been outturned by well flown Messers more than I would have liked. If I want to be safe and farm kills, while still engaging in knife fights, I take the F4, if I want to be able to defend my self well while still being able to adequately counterattack and keep the upper hand in extended turnfights I want the Yak-1b.

So just for Berloga statistics and a bit of bragging: In the F4 my record is 37-0, in the Yak-1b it is 24-0. I assume this reflects the reality to a fair extent.

 

That all being said I do not find the 109 easier than the Yak-1b tbh, quite the opposite. The 109 requires precisely coordinated control movements, whereas the Yak is way more forgiving to dirty flying.

 

I agree with you in most of what you are writing Jordan, but not completely about climbing or fighting vertical in the 109. If you trying to climb away the imo unrealistic long range shooting (I regularly got hits at distances of ~600 to 700m) throws a spanner in your plan. And fighting vertical let the 109 bleed more energy than the Yak (1b). So this is difficult as well, although the 109 was famous for its vertical capabilities....

 

As for bragging and Berloga statistics: I get a better kill-death-ratio on Berloga in a Yak-1b than in a 109 F4 and this without almost no practice. That is my experience

 

Nonetheless, as I said initially, yes, one can competitive fight in a 109, I agree. Things are a lot better and more realistic than they were in the past. And the FM update is ahead, so I'm general positive.

Edited August 17, 2017 by StG2_Manfred

[CUJO_1970]

So just for Berloga statistics and a bit of bragging: In the F4 my record is 37-0, in the Yak-1b it is 24-0.

 

Wow, that's amazing. OK in my book to brag a little about that.

[9./JG27golani79]

Flying German = easy mode. So much less to think about. Don't feel bad, irl those planes were much more automated.

It's so funny - cause always when I fly russian side it feels like easy mode to me ...

[Gambit21]

Damn Jordan,

 

I'll be happy if (when I get back to flying online) I get back up to my old 13/1 from the old days.

It's so funny - cause always when I fly russian side it feels like easy mode to me ...

 

See now to me...hop in, gas it...don't worry about anything other than ACM.

So I get the "easy mode" analogy, as it feels a bit like that...except again...you still have to out-conserve energy the Yaks etc which is the hard part.

 

Still to me that's much easier than the Russian birds where I have to keep an eye on radiators, super chargers and prop pitch plus my energy state to properly ACM.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

I find the 109 infinitely harder than any Soviet aircraft. Horrible visibility, tricky during take-off and landing, cramped cockpit, very clumsy trimming and above all it doesn't behave like it wants to fly sometimes.

 

All Soviet fighters on the other hand are much more user-friendly specifically because they let you fiddle with the engine. You have the option to cook the engine a little for a few more km/h, you can set very economic cruise regimes based on your mission needs, you can actually check your rear hemisphere really easily, and they almost land themselves! It feels like flying a plane so to say, as opposed to being a passenger like in the 109. For newer pilots in particular the Yak is extremely forgiving. You can hamfist it all day and it will still recover adequately in no time, while all other fighters in game punish newbies harshly.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

In reference to the Yak1b

 

 

 

Still not as good a performer as the later 109s, but it's closing the gap.

 

Still not as good a performer? What more advantages do you want? 

 

It has a faster turn rate

It has a smaller turn radius

It is as fast on the deck

It has significantly better energy retention

Its guns are more devastating to the enemy

It has higher durability

It is more stable with less wobble after control input

It has substantially better cockpit visibility

It has vastly better stability at low speeds, especially with flaps deployed.

 

What it lacks,

Climb rate

Top speed at med-high altitudes

Maximum dive speed

Top speed on the deck for the 1 minute duration of emergency power from the F4.

Engine/cooling system automation

 

Lets not try paint the Yak1b as lacking in its own advantages to combat the 109.

Edited August 18, 2017 by =TBAS=Tripwire

[ShamrockOneFive]

In reference to the Yak1b

 

 

 

 

Still not as good a performer? What more advantages do you want? 

 

It has a faster turn rate

It has a smaller turn radius

It is as fast on the deck

It has significantly better energy retention

Its guns are more devastating to the enemy

It has higher durability

It is more stable with less wobble after control input

It has substantially better cockpit visibility

It has vastly better stability at low speeds, especially with flaps deployed.

 

What it lacks,

Climb rate

Top speed at med-high altitudes

Maximum dive speed

Top speed on the deck for the 1 minute duration of emergency power from the F4.

Engine/cooling system automation

 

Lets not try paint the Yak1b as lacking in its own advantages to combat the 109.

 

Two of those items in the lacking category are significant depending on the situation. The climb rate and top speed at medium-high altitudes can be a major drawback. I've found myself in a Yak-1B trying to confront a Bf109 only to be dragged up to higher altitudes, losing the advantage in both climb and speed, and that's when he's probably got me. Not a smooth tactical move on my part (to be fair) but that is a disadvantage of some note. The patient Bf109 pilot might either keep the fight at that medium altitude with declining advantage or drag someone up there.

 

Down low the Yak-1B does tend to be an awesome fighter. It's got a ton of great attributes and its no small wonder to me why so many pilots (and a good number of Aces) loved this plane and fought with it from late 1942 through to 1944.

 

Generally, (not directed at you Tripwire)... It's still a matter of knowing the aircraft (both yours and your opponents), respecting relative strengths and weaknesses and exploiting that to best tactical advantage.

 

The Bf109 is awesome but its obviously not a 'fly one and win' card. You have to work for it. Same with every other plane.

[Finkeren]

In reference to the Yak1b

 

 

 

 

Still not as good a performer? What more advantages do you want?

 

It has a faster turn rate

It has a smaller turn radius

It is as fast on the deck

It has significantly better energy retention

Its guns are more devastating to the enemy

It has higher durability

It is more stable with less wobble after control input

It has substantially better cockpit visibility

It has vastly better stability at low speeds, especially with flaps deployed.

 

What it lacks,

Climb rate

Top speed at med-high altitudes

Maximum dive speed

Top speed on the deck for the 1 minute duration of emergency power from the F4.

Engine/cooling system automation

 

Most of what you wrote here I agree with, with the possible exception of stability at low speeds being on the Yak's side, but you forget one important aspect: acceleration.

 

Under combat power (not WEP) the later 109s accelerate vastly better than the Yak-1b (yes, I've tested it)

 

These 4 factors:

 

Level speed

 

Climb rate

 

Acceleration

 

Dive performance

 

Together make the 109 a much better performer as a fighter compared to the Yak, because those are exactly the factors that allow the pilot to dictate the fight.