Spitfire ground loop

[indiaciki]

I haven't been flying for quite some time. This is a video of a typical Spitfire landing (a bit short) - I ground loop most of the time as she loses speed after a successful landing. What am I doing wrong?

 

This is a 2min video of a landing (ext/int view).

 

 

 

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Haven't flown the Spitfire yet but by the looks of it you kept applying right rudder for a second or two too long. In the external camera you can see the last two rudder inputs give the nose just enough push to the right.

[indiaciki]

Yes, One can see that in the extrenal view. How do I counter that?

[AndyJWest]

I have much the same trouble. The trick seems to be to keep a little power on until you have almost stopped, to maintain rudder control. 

[indiaciki]

That's a way to counter a ground loop. I didn't apply brakes.

[Riderocket]

You seem to be doing things right. Applying back pressure on the elevator, using wheel brakes, quick throttle burst, small rudder movements. Etc.Etc.

 

All that's left is practice and some good luck!

[BlitzPig_EL]

...and the upcoming FM airflow rework.

 

This behavior has been wrong since the day of release.

[indiaciki]

Do think that adding a little power and wheel breaks to full would help?

[indiaciki]

maybe it was sidewind

Edited August 14, 2017 by indiaciki

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Brakes are a must to me, applying them not only leads to a shorter run but it also allows you to keep a little power on to maintain rudder authority.

[unreasonable]

I just find that braking - repeated short applications - prevents the ground loop even with the throttle fully at idle. Once you are slowing down enough to ground loop the brakes will take you to a full halt very quickly.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Keep a small amount of throttle applied through the rollout until you are below 20kph pretty much solves this. Stay ahead of the nose with the pedals and keep airflow over the rudder. She's awful without this and fairly tame if you do.

[indiaciki]

Thanks

[216th_Jordan]

you can use the brakes to counter a groudloop. Push full rudder against movement of the plane and tap brakes until you get a response, release brakes before the plane swings to the other side. If the planes movement is neutral brake again to stop the plane.

[Guest deleted@50488]

I feel that the way IL-2 models the effect of x-wind on ground is overdone.

 

I can barely taxi the Spitfire without using full rudder deflection downwind, and brakes ( of course ... ) at even a mere quarterly 10 mph wind ???

 

Of course after landing, even at lower wind or nill wind, as we lose speed we should be using brakes to steer, and maybe small bursts of power to make the tail surfaces come alive.

[indiaciki]

Jcomm, can you do a video of a spit landing until full stop? If it is no bother. This refers to anybody else, of course.

[Guest deleted@50488]

@inidiaciki,

 

I am on vacations, returning to base today. I'll try my best to record a video. I just have the base Nvidia drivers installed in my simulation rig, but I'll try to install the Experience package and shadow play, and will try to record a video in the next days.

 

tbh, the Spitfire in il2 is a lot easier to handle than I was expecting, on takeoff and landing. For instance I wouldn't expect that the tail surfaces would be so effective even at taxi speeds / power setings. The rudder, for instance, comes alive rather easily with your RPM around 1500, enough to steer without any problems... I would expect it to be a lot less effective. 

 

On a zero wind takeoff, to leave out any possible weathervane effects, if I fully deflect the rudder to the right and add full power, the aircraft will leave the runway through the right, rudder being a lot more effective than I would expect at the initial phase of the takeoff, and so, propwash being very effective...

 

Edit: I believe there's a recording feature in IL.2 Battle of... so that would probably be a better solution to record a full circuit, with and without x-wind, because that way one could watch the reproduction from different views ( ? )

Edited August 15, 2017 by jcomm

[DD_Arthur]

Here you go indiaciki;

 

 

Lapino summer map, 7.30am, 5 m/s crosswind, turbulence at 1 m/s, 50% fuel load.   It fairly leaps off the ground at take-off if you keep the stick back!   Spitfire has been modelled with the new FM calculations we will be getting for the rest of the 'plane set with next patch so its flight characteristics seem to be fairly unique at the moment.

 

I suppose the nearest other 'plane to it in terms of wing area and flap operation is the Yak 1 but the Spit is definitely different!  As long as you are within the flight regime specified for landing gear and flap deployment it seems to land itself .   

 

On roll out I tend to leave the throttle and brakes alone until speed has dropped significantly.  Otherwise I get ground looping in a LaGG/La-5 styleee......   

Edited August 15, 2017 by DD_Arthur

[Blutaar]

I dont remember the exact amount of thottle but try with 18% throttle after your tail is glued to the ground. I dont know how realistic this is but it works for me with all planes without groundlooping.

[Guest deleted@50488]

And here you are, two tracks just recorded before unpacking the bags :-)

 

The first is a full circuit with no wind, the 2nd has a 10 mph x-wind from starboard.

Edited August 15, 2017 by jcomm

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I dont remember the exact amount of thottle but try with 18% throttle after your tail is glued to the ground. I dont know how realistic this is but it works for me with all planes without groundlooping.

This, I've been using 15-18 percent. It's not exact as I use HOTAS throttle position and no tech tips. No ground looping on the Spit if you keep the throttle on, liberal use of brakes, and lots of rudder dancing down to about 20 mph.

 

*edit: mph

Edited August 15, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

Narrow track gear definitely makes her want to drop a wing more than others. I use similar method to landing the La-5. Keep some power on the throttle, and let her roll out until speed is low enough to use brakes. Stab the rudder, don't hold it. 

[Guest deleted@50488]

Other than it's sensitivity to x-wind, this Spitfire is actually very easy to takeoff and land. The tracks I linked above are far from being the best examples of how such maneuvers should be handled, but I was in a hurry to post it for indiaciki.

 

For instance we can easily add full power on takeoff without deflecting the aileron to the right on a windless takeoff. Just slight rudder corrections to steer - and yes, I am well aware that the effect of a fully deflected aileron only comes to play as dynamic pressure builds up during the takeoff run, and not due to propwash....

 

On landing, as we loose speed, the best trick is to "dance on the rudder" as required, staying ahead of the "aircraft will", and of course helping it with differential braking whenever required. Slight power bursts, also help bringing the rudder alive to help with steering.

 

Ah! In the Spitfire I believe some pilot notes also recommend retracting flaps as soon as you're in the rollout. ​​I use that too.

Edited August 15, 2017 by jcomm

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

...and the upcoming FM airflow rework.

 

This behavior has been wrong since the day of release.

There is no such thing like FM airflow rework.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

you can use the brakes to counter a groudloop. Push full rudder against movement of the plane and tap brakes until you get a response, release brakes before the plane swings to the other side. If the planes movement is neutral brake again to stop the plane.

Using brakes to counter breakouts is possible but more of a last resort than ideal. Infact, if not skillfully applied, this can also quickly lead to a ground loop.

 

Best way to keep the aircraft straight after landing is to pull back on the stick and correcting with rudder by applying it in bursts (quick, large deflections). Holding the rudder steady in a direction until visible reaction of the aircraft will lead to overcorrection and possibly pilot induced oscilation.

 

Adding power on rollout can be helpfull but shouldnt be needed if you can manage the aircraft properly.

[BlitzPig_EL]

There is no such thing like FM airflow rework.

 

 

 Feeling a bit pedantic today?  You know exactly what I'm talking about.

[216th_Jordan]

Using brakes to counter breakouts is possible but more of a last resort than ideal. Infact, if not skillfully applied, this can also quickly lead to a ground loop.

 

 

Thats how I meant it. If you release once the plane is turning back from the swing it usually straigthens itself out if the swing has not been to wide.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

 Feeling a bit pedantic today?  You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Not really. I don't use magic ball.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The reworking of airflow over the control surfaces that has been in the works and posted about many times over the last few months.

[Blutaar]

Dont make it more complicated then it is. The only trick needed, is to use a bit of throttle while doing your ruddering and breaking!

[Quax]

This is an old vid with a Lagg5 at 20 knots crosswind without any power. It shows, that the only "trick" is to work fast with your feet, and use differential braking as soon as necessary:

 

[216th_Jordan]

The reworking of airflow over the control surfaces that has been in the works and posted about many times over the last few months.

That has already been done for the Spitfire. What you describe however is more of a gear dynamics issue, cant tell you if thats correct or not.

[The_Ant]

Hehe if you think Il2 spitfire Mk5 is a bitch taking off or landing.Then i urge you too try Dcs Spitfire mK9 without autorudder help thats a bitch with a big B .After flying the dcs mk9 for some time Before the il2 mk5 was released .made the il2 spitfire mk5 very easy to fly...

[dburne]

Hehe if you think Il2 spitfire Mk5 is a bitch taking off or landing.Then i urge you too try Dcs Spitfire mK9 without autorudder help thats a bitch with a big B .After flying the dcs mk9 for some time Before the il2 mk5 was released .made the il2 spitfire mk5 very easy to fly...

 

Yep, I cut my Spitfire teeth on that one as well, really helped me.

Edited August 16, 2017 by dburne

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Dont make it more complicated then it is. The only trick needed, is to use a bit of throttle while doing your ruddering and breaking!

This^^

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Hehe if you think Il2 spitfire Mk5 is a bitch taking off or landing.Then i urge you too try Dcs Spitfire mK9 without autorudder help thats a bitch with a big B .After flying the dcs mk9 for some time Before the il2 mk5 was released .made the il2 spitfire mk5 very easy to fly...

 

If there's one thing DCS does well it's creating caricatures of aircraft behavior based on anecdotal evidence. 

[indiaciki]

@jcomm did you attach the files? I can't see any download link. Thanks .

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Not throttle needed at all just breaks and rudder. U can stop the spit really really quickly actually.

 

I don't know where tis throttle on during landing trail of thought came from but all you are doing is increasing your ground run which can be dangerous and to me is a bad piloting habit

Edited August 16, 2017 by AeroAce

[Guest deleted@50488]

@jcomm did you attach the files? I can't see any download link. Thanks .

 

Sry:

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuoxscJa9OyCjhOJkj9rX2lLWiBK

[indiaciki]

Thanks