Sokol1 Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 Believe it or not: September 18, 1942. Captain Semyon Stepanovich Mukhin pilot of 62nd Regiment destroy a enemy aircraft by "ramming". On that day, at dawn, together with Lieutenant Boris Maslov, takeoff from the airfield Gelendzhik to destroy an enemy spotter plane. The German reconnaissance aircraft FW-189 flew as long-range artillery spotter for adjust fire on Russian coastal battery positions.The pilots attacked the enemy aircraft, but this is fiercely defended. Mukkin as hit by Geman gunner bullet in the left arm, and besides, ran out of ammunition. The attack of his wingman Maslov also ended in failure. Then Mukhin hit the tail of enemy aircraft with the propeller of this LaGG-3. After that, roll the fighter inverted and at height of 3.500 meters unbuckled his harness and fell out of the cockpit of the damaged aircraft. His LaGG-3 fell into the bushes near the road-Novorossiysk Gelendzhik. The wounded pilot began to descend by parachute into the sea. Not far from the parachute of two Germans. Suddently the Germans open fire on Muskhin with his pistols. The Russian pilot also took his gun and in this unusual aerial parachute duel shot the two enemies. After forty minutes in the water was took be a boat. On board the boat were raised as the corpses of German pilots. For this "ramming" Mukhin was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. German documents confirm that on this on this day failed to returned from a mission in the area of Kabardinka, Gelendzhik a Fw-189 aircraft of 7th detachment of the 32nd reconnaissance squadron. The Fw-189 crew where pilot sergeant Herman Waldmann, navigator Lieutenant Charles Kolshmidta and gunner sergeant Richard Witt listed as missing by the German Red Cross service.
Gambit21 Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 Good yarn. Ramming was standard Russian doctrine (when out of ammo) even into the jet age.
Irgendjemand Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 only confirms what ive already known: Chivalry in aircombat? - LOOOOOL 1
Aap Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 While that kind of war stories are interesting, it is kind of hard to believe three airmen ending up in parachutes within pistol range from each other. 2
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 Good yarn. Ramming was standard Russian doctrine (when out of ammo) even into the jet age. Although this "glorious" action itself sounds like a propaganda piece. 1
216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 I decided to look into it. Most sources have that Mukhin opened his parachute several metres higher than the German crew but horizontally very close (plausible, since both aircraft lost control at the same time). Upon being shot at, he supposedly worked the parachute harnesses to speed up his descent and then replied to the pistol fire. My guess is they fired at each other, neither hit, and the German pilots drowned while Mukhin was rescued. 4
Gambit21 Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 Although this "glorious" action itself sounds like a propaganda piece. Probably
Finkeren Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 I'm with Lucas. Most likely we're looking at another example of over-claiming Still, if this actually did take place, my money would be on the Soviet pilot. Most likely, he would have been armed with a TT33 firing the awesome Tokarev 7.62x25mm round with a much higher muzzle velocity than the Germans, who probably had a P-38 or even a pitiful little Walther PP, putting them at a disadvantage at such a long range.
216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 A nuance of all Russian texts here is that none of them mention that Mukhin actually killed them with his pistol. The emphasis is on the sheer fact that such an unusual duel happened, but the actual cause of death isn't mentioned - all that is known is the sailors picked up two dead German airmen, and Muhkin alive but wounded. They go on to establish that it is sure the two airmen were crewmembers of Mukhin's target since no other German aircraft fell in that vicinity at that time, and thus one way or another were killed by Mukhin's actions. The award report lists the ramming as the reason for earning an Order, and his personal file by superiors also goes on to only describe his tactical acumen as a whole combined with his ability to take effective selfless decisions such as ramming the Fw-189 to accomplish the mission and avoid casualties on the ground. In other words, the shootout is an eccentricity of the engagement officially, while the ramming is the remarkable feat. 3
Juri_JS Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) There was indeed a Fw-189 (M4+CR) from 7.(H)/Aufkl.Gr. 32 lost near Kabardinka on this day. Crew names were Karl Kohl-Schmitt, Herrmann Waldmann and Richard Witt. So the claim is probably correct, but the pistol dual sounds more like a propaganda story. Soviet war reporters sometimes invented or exaggerated such stories to lift people's morale. Edited August 10, 2017 by Juri_JS 1
Swing Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) Chivalry in air combat ? https://youtu.be/cvfOTYf3RH0 Edited August 11, 2017 by Swing 1
CanadaOne Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 only confirms what ive already known: Chivalry in aircombat? - LOOOOOL Chivalry? Victory! If the guy bailed out and I was out of ammo, I'd ram his chute and then crash the plane into him the moment he hit the ground.
Monostripezebra Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 If the guy bailed out and I was out of ammo, I'd ram his chute and then crash the plane into him the moment he hit the ground. Average day on WoL ;=) 2
CanadaOne Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 Average day on WoL ;=) I'll have to fly there one day.
salimliu Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 Despite soviets，let's not forget Clive "killer" Caldwell
Danziger Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 Chivalry? Victory! If the guy bailed out and I was out of ammo, I'd ram his chute and then crash the plane into him the moment he hit the ground. That's not very Canadian of you... I don't think that story is too far fetched. Crazier things have happened in war. It's not that implausible for parachuting enemies to fire at each other. Whether they actually hit each other at a long distance with sidearms is another matter. I just wonder how different the comments would've been if it were an American pilot and two Japanese pilots in the story...
CanadaOne Posted August 10, 2017 Posted August 10, 2017 That's not very Canadian of you... On the contrary, it's very Canadian. We're quite mad, you know. 1
ShamrockOneFive Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 That's not very Canadian of you... I don't think that story is too far fetched. Crazier things have happened in war. It's not that implausible for parachuting enemies to fire at each other. Whether they actually hit each other at a long distance with sidearms is another matter. I just wonder how different the comments would've been if it were an American pilot and two Japanese pilots in the story... During both World Wars the Canadian Army had a reputation for combat efficiency. Allegedly Germany army troops even called the Canadian army "storm troopers" during the second Battle of Ypres. Also one of our JTF2 special forces soldiers scored a record some months back for longest range sniper kill. We can be mean when we want to be. The rest of the time we're insanely polite and generally passive aggressive 3
Wulf Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) It's all speculation, of course, but we can almost certainly rule out the possibility of a parachute pistol duel. Even if shots were fired, the chances of hitting someone, with a handgun, while dangling from a chute are too remote to be taken seriously. Hitting two people is beyond crazy. That part of the story is almost certainly a pack of lies. Even the ramming is questionable. In all probability it was just a collision. If the German airmen came down in the sea, in Soviet territory, they probably just left them to drown or killed them in the water. Just the sort of nasty [edited] thing that happens in war. Edited August 11, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin lenguage
Cybermat47 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 It's all speculation, of course, but we can almost certainly rule out the possibility of a parachute pistol duel. Even if shots were fired, the chances of hitting someone, with a handgun, while dangling from a chute are too remote to be taken seriously. Hitting two people is beyond crazy. That part of the story is almost certainly a pack of lies. Even the ramming is questionable. In all probability it was just a collision. The source never stated that Cpt. Mukhin killed the Luftwaffe Airmen with his pistol, only that they were found dead afterwards. The cause of death is never stated. And I don't find anything unbelievable about some people in parachutes drawing pistols and firing them in the general direction of someone else. As for the ramming, there are multiple recorded cases of Soviet aircraft ramming German aircraft.
Wulf Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I don't find anything unbelievable about some people in parachutes drawing pistols and firing them in the general direction of someone else. And I don't doubt you do believe it. Many people like to believe in these improbable tales of derring do in wartime. We all like a little romance. But ask yourself, what possible purpose would be served attempting to bring a holstered pistol to bare on two essentially incapacitated enemy aircrew, in parachutes, descending at a speed of about 20kph, over a soviet controlled sea, while wearing flying gear ? And yes, I know people have claimed to have rammed aircraft during the war, as we often accuse others of doing online today. And there'd be some truth to some of these tales, sure. But how often is a ramming incident these days really a ramming incident rather than just your common or garden cock-up? I guess what I'm saying is; don't take every statement you read, particularly those relating to war, at face value. Much of it is just bs. To my way of thinking, the story sounds quite a bit like propaganda.
Cybermat47 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 And I don't doubt you do believe it. Many people like to believe in these improbable tales of derring do in wartime. We all like a little romance. I wouldn't describe the incident as romantic, or having derring-do. People shooting other people is a pretty regular occurence in wartime. But ask yourself, what possible purpose would be served attempting to bring a holstered pistol to bare on two essentially incapacitated enemy aircrew, in parachutes, descending at a speed of about 20kph, over a soviet controlled sea, while wearing flying gear ? I don't know. What possible purpose did it serve Hitler to murder millions of fit young potential recruits because they were Jewish? What possible purpose did it serve pilots to kill enemy Airmen in their parachutes over friendly territory? If people only did logical things, the world would be unrecognisable. And yes, I know people have claimed to have rammed aircraft during the war, as we often accuse others of doing online today. And there'd be some truth to some of these tales, sure. But how often is a ramming incident these days really a ramming incident rather than just your common or garden cock-up? Ramming incidents online are, with a few exceptions, simply mistakes. But what you have to remember is that there's a difference between playing a video game and actually fighting a war. When you're flying online, you're out of ammo, and you see an enemy aircraft, you don't think to yourself "I should ram him". When Flight Lieutenant Ray Holmes ran out of ammo and saw an enemy aircraft, however, he did decide to ram. Unlike in online play, if the bomber hadn't been rammed, it would have killed people.
Wulf Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Believe what you want to believe and I'll do the same. By the way, if you're interested in a never to be repeated deal on some waterfront property; pp me bro. Have I got a deal for you.....
1PL-Husar-1Esk Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Shooting enemy in parachute do not astonishes me in face of facts that LW pilots on purpose did bombed hospitals and civil convoys, trains full of women's and children's fleeing from advanced blitzkrieg. Edited August 11, 2017 by 307_Tomcat 3
Livai Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Parachute Painkillers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5va66267KuQ 1
Cybermat47 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 By the way, if you're interested in a never to be repeated deal on some waterfront property; pp me bro. Have I got a deal for you..... If you're going to call me an idiot, could you at least be honest about it?
LLv24_Zami Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 I think Lucas gave the most believable explanation about this case.
Wulf Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 If you're going to call me an idiot, could you at least be honest about it? Bro, I'm kidding. Chill. Who knows, maybe it's true. Personally I doubt it but who knows. And anyway, an Ocker idiot, is that even possible??? Surely not ...
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) Shooting enemy in parachute do not astonishes me in face of facts that LW pilots on purpose did bombed hospitals and civil convoys, trains full of women's and children's fleeing from advanced blitzkrieg. Surely nobody else did anything of the sort! /s Honestly, that doesn't have any place in this discussion. Everybody committed acts of war against civilian populations in WWII. It's a simple fact of the conflict. Edited August 11, 2017 by Space_Ghost 1
CanadaOne Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 During both World Wars the Canadian Army had a reputation for combat efficiency. Allegedly Germany army troops even called the Canadian army "storm troopers" during the second Battle of Ypres. Also one of our JTF2 special forces soldiers scored a record some months back for longest range sniper kill. We can be mean when we want to be. The rest of the time we're insanely polite and generally passive aggressive Passive aggressive? Who... us?
=TBAS=Sshadow14 Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Its War - Anything is legal(not like that Geneva convention crud that almost nobody ever followed even if they say they did its almost impossible to follow in a war zone..)
CanadaOne Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Its War - Anything is legal (not like that Geneva convention crud that almost nobody ever followed even if they say they did its almost impossible to follow in a war zone..) And if not "legal", certainly to be expected. A man drowning in the ocean, expecting only to be nibbled on by the fishes of his choice as he sinks to the bottom, does not understand the reality of the situation.
FTC_Riksen Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Surely nobody else did anything of the sort! /s Honestly, that doesn't have any place in this discussion. Everybody committed acts of war against civilian populations in WWII. It's a simple fact of the conflict. But it's only considered "war crime" when the enemy does it lol 2
Sokol1 Posted August 11, 2017 Author Posted August 11, 2017 Although this "glorious" action itself sounds like a propaganda piece. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_J._Baggett
von_Tom Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Lots of BS about the war. Some propaganda, some simply made up by glory hunters, some made up to put themselves in the story and so on. But don't get hung up on it because there was far more genuine unsung heroism every single day. von Tom 1
Ribbon Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 One of the main weapons of communism was propaganda.
Danziger Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 Like it isn't a weapon of every other administration? 1
216th_Lucas_From_Hell Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 All governments (and their oppositions) today, yesterday and tomorrow, manipulate information in their favour. It's a fact of life. You just need to understand which party skews to what side and what kind of information are they likely to manipulate. Spend 30 minutes at CNN, Radio Liberty or SputnikNews and you'll see that nobody is a saint. Nothing new about it. In this particular case though we have a storm in a teacup. Three airmen bail out, they start shooting at each other, one survives and gets commended for shooting down the aircraft with no mention of the shootout, or without claims (personal of official) of killing them with the handgun.
SCG_Space_Ghost Posted August 11, 2017 Posted August 11, 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_J._Baggett "This account is not consistent with Japanese wartime records – discussed in the book "B-24 Liberators vs Ki-43 Oscars" by Edward M Young on page 57. This fight was between 13 Ki-43s of the JAAF 64th Sentai and around 12 B-24s of the 7th BG. There were no Japanese pilot losses."
SCG_Fenris_Wolf Posted August 14, 2017 Posted August 14, 2017 If you guys consider the level of propaganda in other Communist countries of today like North Korea, you can think for yourself to get an idea on how much truth all these "facts" about the "evil German LW" hold, when even for the German infantrymen rape was punished by death in "Standgericht" (drumhead court martial). Not asking you to think into any direction - just reason about it by yourself, think of Stalinistic-style North Korea, and draw your own conclusions.
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