Spitfire pitches up before landing.

[TheJay13]

So I've been doing a bunch of practice landings in the spit and it seems everytime I cut power and flare to toutch down the spit baloons up about 20 ft. before slamming back into the ground. How do I counter this and is it an intended thing or just an FM problem.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

It's the autoflaps.

[TheJay13]

I already have the flaps extended though.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Go to external view and watch them as your airspeed falls. They don't fully deploy until you slow down.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Usually this lets me know that I've come in a little too hot as hrafnkolbrandr mentioned. A little less speed and the full landing flap deployment should be a bit smoother.

 

Spitfires do tend to float and bounce a bit so you need to be ready.

[TheJay13]

I just did around 10 or so touch and go landings and have started to get the hang of it. I am making my approaches at around 110-100 mph and then chopping the throttle and countering the ballooning and it seems to be working out pretty well now. Still get the occasional bounce however but practice should iron it out. I think part of my problem was also that I was approaching too steeply.

[unreasonable]

Your cockpit should be open, throttle should be on or close to idle and your flaps extended well before you get anywhere near the runway.  Approach speed is 85 mph by the manual. edit ie I suspect that you are not approaching too steeply, but too fast.

Edited August 6, 2017 by unreasonable

[TheJay13]

Pretty sure 85 is too slow for final. I would be falling into the trees in front of the runway at that speed.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

The Spit is longitudinally unstable and requires double controlling. She will balloon if you do not stay ahead of her on the elevator. The nose will continue to rise if you give up elevator and don't positively give down elevator to counter it. This is different than all of the other AC we have in the game as far as I remember. The Spit flies differently and it is most noticeable to me at the flare. Searching the intrawebs seems to indicate this is accurate.

 

The flaps are manual landing flaps (pneumatic) and are designed to be full up or full down. There are no automatic or combat flaps. I have not experimented to see if excessive speed causes them to partially close like Russian designs but that is not a typical application of them nor an intentional engineering feature.

 

FWIW: I use 100mph for approach and touch down around 85. Once I've pitched and stabilized the nose at the flare the stick remains almost completely neutral and the descent is with the throttle. Additional stick movement is not recommended. Hold attitude and correct with the throttle. Again, this is different than your typical German or Russian AC which are easier to correct and can be flown down to the runway with lots of minor inputs and corrections.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Indeed the Spitfire flaps retract / deply partially if higher than recommended speeds are practised when they are used, pretty much like in the Yak-1 and other fighters, but you had to deploy them at a very high speed for being on approach to notice the effect ?

 

I think your "problem" is more due to the fact that the Spitfire has neutral pitch stability under most flight situations, as some have pointed out above, and HerrMurf refers in more detail.

[ZachariasX]

but you had to deploy them at a very high speed for being on approach to notice the effect ?

Do not exceed 140 mph when deplying flaps. If you're doing it anyway, they either don't lower due to excessive air pressure or they might even deploy slightly unevenly, uncovering any slight imbalance of torque applied by the system. In short, you'd be asking for (a lot of) trouble.

 

The pitching problem is a simulator artifact for non-FFB joysticks as that one always stays centered, not exerting force on the pilot to keep it centered. In a real aircraft, deploying split flaps will produce the pitch up if you hold the stick firm in postition. This is why I think one should make the player having to pull back on non-FFB joysticks to simulate the forward pull of the stick. Basically creating an artifact to mend an artifact. The Spit being more neutral pitch-wise just accentuates the issue. The more stable an aircraft, the more you should have to pull back the joystick of a sim aircraft, for more neutral ones, less. So in this sense, in case of the Spit, the nose-up is a bit of a feature compared to other aircraft.

 

It is a general problem in sims that the build up forces that occur in certain flight configurations and attitudes resulting in the buildup in forces working against keeping the controls centered are all non existent, thus masking trim requirements that are not similar between simulator and the real aircraft, even though  100% fidelity between sim and reality is assumed.

[unreasonable]

Pretty sure 85 is too slow for final. I would be falling into the trees in front of the runway at that speed.

 

I had forgotten the PEC  which is +4 mph for 100-140 by the manual, since it is going geometrically higher as speed drops perhaps 10 mph at 80. Our instruments show no PEC, so 85 per manual ~ 95 in game.

 

Having just tried a few circuits myself, actually the plane is not stalling at 85 in game, (F+G down)  but it's rate of descent is too high with power off and there is insufficient speed reserve to flare out. It is like a carrier landing: the gear does not actually break, (with 30% fuel on board) but it certainly looks as though it should!  

[TheJay13]

Do not exceed 140 mph when deplying flaps. If you're doing it anyway, they either don't lower due to excessive air pressure or they might even deploy slightly unevenly, uncovering any slight imbalance of torque applied by the system. In short, you'd be asking for (a lot of) trouble.

Yeah but nobody is landing at 140mph so this behavior is irrelevant. It is moreso the fact that the spit currently is the floatiest airplane ever on landings. Hopefullly its an innacuracy in the FM and will get toned down because the behavior just seems a bit odd.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Yeah but nobody is landing at 140mph so this behavior is irrelevant. It is moreso the fact that the spit currently is the floatiest airplane ever on landings. Hopefullly its an innacuracy in the FM and will get toned down because the behavior just seems a bit odd.

Plenty of people are landing too fast and it is completely relevant. Go to any MP server for examples. The Spit has a better glide ratio that other AC but I don't see that as a problem or an inaccuracy. The DEV's built her with the newest data at their disposal. I doubt very much will change.  

 

Here is the floatiest ariplane ever.........

 

[ZachariasX]

Yeah but nobody is landing at 140mph so this behavior is irrelevant. It is moreso the fact that the spit currently is the floatiest airplane ever on landings. Hopefullly its an innacuracy in the FM and will get toned down because the behavior just seems a bit odd.

Looking at the wing area and loading, I would (without knowing better) expect it to be "floatier" than most in the ground effect...

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I am making my approaches at around 110-100 mph and then chopping the throttle

 

I did this a lot while learning to fly IRL. Pulling the throttle back at a nice steady rate significantly improved my real life landings and it's how I do it in sims as well. "Don't chop and ya' wont drop." 

 

As an aside; I may make this my new sig line

Edited August 6, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[ZachariasX]

I did this a lot while learning to fly IRL. Pulling the throttle back at a nice steady rate significantly improved my real life landings and it's how I do it in sims as well. "Don't chop and ya' wont drop." 

 

As an aside; I may make this my new sig line

As long as you're not american carrier style landings as they did it in the 40's, a small drop is not the worst that could happen to your landing. At least, you're definitely not flying anymore when you think you have arrived.

 

IMHO, the perfect landing should have you "drop" from about 1 ft. altitude. But, as you say, there is no reason not to drop "nicely".

[von_Tom_server]

 

Curve approach from 500ft. Downwind at 170-180. Turn and at 160 drop gear. The speed drops rapidly so drop flaps very soon after at 140. Keep throttle at idle until 100-110 and descend. Cross threshold at 90 and about 50 feet and just hold the plane as it descends. Maybe go to boost -2. As it slows it pitches up to the perfect 3 point attitude so you don't have to flare.

 

Works for me anyway.

 

Von Tom

[Boneboys]

Tally Ho chaps!

 

I can't for the life of me land the spitfire without breaking something or other.

I've read through the advice given here and it appears that I'm doing things more or less as should be.

 

The problem is controlling the braking, direction and speed once touched down and on the runway.

I often crash at this point, while trying to control the direction on the runway.

If there was a drag chute I would deploy it to slow down to a stop.

 

Now we know that you can almost walk (floaty) this bird into land but controlling to a safe stop after touchdown is proving difficult, to say the least.

 

I need to cut the speed once landed

Any hints or tips would be most welcome.

 

Thanks.

[Herne]

Tally Ho chaps!

 

I can't for the life of me land the spitfire without breaking something or other.

I've read through the advice given here and it appears that I'm doing things more or less as should be.

 

The problem is controlling the braking, direction and speed once touched down and on the runway.

I often crash at this point, while trying to control the direction on the runway.

If there was a drag chute I would deploy it to slow down to a stop.

 

Now we know that you can almost walk (floaty) this bird into land but controlling to a safe stop after touchdown is proving difficult, to say the least.

 

I need to cut the speed once landed

Any hints or tips would be most welcome.

 

Thanks.

 a bit of a rudder dance is required to roll to a near stop in a straight line

[Herne]

a quick search on YT I came across this vid that might help some of you having problems :-

 

 

note the shallow approach attitude to prevent over speed. Very different to a 109 for example where full flap is extremely powerful and you can approach with a very steep approach attitude.