The Finer Points of Flying Seaplanes

[SCG_Hobo]

With the upcomming release of BOK, ships, and requests for seaplanes, I decided to create this post. In the majority of flight simulators seaplane mechanics are more often than not grossly incorrect. There are many reasons for this, however it is not within the scope of this post. This post is intended to help familiarize the team & community with the finer points of float flying. By uploading reference materials and more importantly highlight the main areas in which RoF disconnects from reality, I hope to help improve the seaplane model for BoX. I am posting this now to be proactive - if nothing else it should be an interesting read for seaplane enthusiasts.

A bit about me before I continue, I'm no old salt, but I am a charter pilot/seaplane instructor in Canada.  I got my seaplane endorsement in 2010 and have been flying floats every year since. I have 500h on floats, and have issued about 50 seaplane licenses. I currently fly a 1963 Cessna 185 on straight floats for a living. I had my company indoctrinaton and initial pilot competency check with a gentleman of about 12000 hours on floats, including time on PBY's modified for waterbombing postwar. My grandfather (born in Berlin 1926) has over 19,000 hours including over 5000 on floats flying Cessna 180s, DHC-2 Piston Beavers, Turbine beavers, and a Grumman Widgeon. He is still alive today to share his experiences and wisdom.

------------------

Part 1a. Video Summary:
After Test Flying a floatplane on a lake in ROF, all in all they have done a fantastic job and are leaps and bounds ahead of most other leading flight sims. Congrats! However there is still much room for improvement.

 

Part 1b. Text Summary:
All links are to sources other than my video summary for variety/confirmation
I. Plow attitude

- Should be more pronounced. With neutral control inputs there was no noticeable transition between idle taxi and step taxi. IRL even if you have full nose fwd control pressure (C172) the nose will still rise a bit, but starts porpoising.
- When decelerating off on the step, aircraft should come off step and through plow attitude later (slower)

II. Idle Taxi
- Too much control authority for aircraft without water rudders. Reversing turns too responsive - Crosswind should be nearly impossible by 8m/s winds - IRL one may not be able to turn around, and is normally lead to consider sailing.

- No Sailing modeled (This is a big one, because it feels like the wind has suddenly disappeared, or like you have breaks, or you're stuck. if it was left out to stop people from drifting backwards, perhaps a mooring system like a proximity armed "parking brake" or anchor could suffice. 

 

III. Step Taxi
- Very difficult to find "Sweet Spot" (Fig. 16)  as water too rough
- Nose digs in and planes on keel ahead of step

- Should act like a tailwheel  and risk water loop if too nose fwd (center of pressure gets ahead of center of gravity)

 

IV. Water Surface
- Water reflection & roughness looks and feels the same with min and max wind setting, any direction, or fetch)

- Spray shouldn't be present at low altitudes or calm winds
- With Fetch, a whole other level of realism comes into play (landing on the leeward side of an island for protected waters, even land planes will be able to use the islands and bays as wind direction indicators)
- Something should limit the aircraft to the type of water it was designed for. For a flying boat, perhaps they can get away with murder. But my favourite little floatplanes would be limited for a lake such as the Volzhskoe above about 5-8m/s due to rough water (no shock absorbtion on floats, can bend a strut, damage prop to spray, have limited control due to weathervaning).
 

Part 2. The Basics

 

Part 3. Advanced
 

Part 4. Initial Testing of Floatplanes in ROF

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P.S. None of this is intended as actual real life seaplane instruction. 

P.S.S. I have access to several float-planes, private and commercial. Devs if I can help you out in any other way let me know. Skype, pictures, or videos of certain phases of flight. I'm happy to help.
If for whatever reason you find yourselves in Ontario I am an employee of a seaplane air service/flight training unit and will happily supervise a few hours of free access to our float-planes on the ramp/docks. Hell, Wx dependent I'll even take two 1C team members out for a 22m seaplane introductory flight ($99 Canadian value) to support float planes in-game. You can legally and safely get a feel for float flying without a pilots license. Stay in the #1 slot as a seaplane sim specialist company 1C!    Do the right thing.
 

Cheers.

Thanks for and sorry for your time!
 

Edited September 6, 2017 by 2./JG51_Hobo

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Cool!

[xvii-Dietrich]

Really great initiative and very interesting biography, 2./JG51_Hobo.
 
 
I am not a real-life pilot, but I am very enthusiastic about seaplanes. I certainly appreciate your effort to post up such material.
 
I agree with you that seaplane simulation is generally not too good. It would be great if some developers would give them a more detailed treatment. Regarding the simulators that do have seaplanes, I have used X-Plane 10 (XP10) and Rise of Flight (RoF). I know that some other simulators have seaplanes (Prepar3D and FSX, for instance), but I've not tried them.
 
RoF is the best, both in terms of graphics and water handling. It certainly models things like wind vaning, drift, ploughing, the step / hydroplaning pretty well. It also models the beaching pretty nicely (although there is no get-out-and-push-back, once you do!). The limitation is that there are only 3 seaplanes (Henriot HD.2, Hansa-Brandenburg W12 and Felixstowe F2a), although the modeling on each of them is pretty gorgeous. Some of the other mechanisms for the seaplanes don't quite work (e.g. recon). Another downside of RoF is the limited maps. However, the actual handling seems okay, which is why I have a lot of hope for future IL-2 releases.
 
XP10 is not very good on graphics or water handling. The graphics are primitive and the water handling is really crude. Water conditions are limited to wave height (and not wave length) and the aircraft-water interaction is not well done at all. On the other hand XP10 has a great selection of aircraft (some of which are really well modeled) and the ability to build-your-own (my current project is an He-115). It has the capability for amphibious aircraft, which is nice. It also has nearly the entire world as a map - seaplane flying usually means long or remote flights. Nearly all of my online flying at the moment is in the DHC-2 or Canso using XP10.
 
 
Have you tried any seaplanes in any simulators? If so which? As you are a real-life seaplane pilot (and instructor too!), I would be very curious to know what you think of them.

[SCG_Hobo]

EDIT: OK Sorry but here's a crazy free stream of thought from work as I waited for a storm cell to pass, dirty and disorganized but my first thoughts. Big and Small. Most if not all of this will be covered thoroughly and in an organized fasion in parts 1-3. All of it is without testing seaplanes in recent time.

 

I agree that ROF is the best I have experienced. FSX Is terrible. X-plane is okay. None of them are worth using for actual seaplane training IMHO.

Ill describe it in more detail, perhaps showcasing real life vs FSX, X-Plane, and ROF if I have time.

Generally what I find poor: The modelling of plow attitude - the part where you are over comming the bow wave is usually WAY to mild or non existant, or you have pitch authority to "pitch" through it. The nose should really rise.... like ALOT. Like.. you cant see over the nose in a damn cessna 172 ALOT. The nose rises twice as well, most sims just have it rise once. The nose rises twice: Once for aerodynamic authority of applying full power and stick full back, the next as the floats try to overcome the bow wave created by doppler effect.

 

Every takeoff when the plane goes through the Plow attitude, the planes center of pressure (center of buoyancy) goes ahead of the center of gravity and you get a reversed weathervaining tendency.

Longitudinal stability should be less positive than their wheeled counterparts, due to extra surface area ahead of the pivot point, unless extra surface area has been added behind the center of gravity (ventral fin, etc) not sure if this is an existing issue, ill have to test it out to prove it, just a thought that might get overlooked.

In chop: 10-15+ knots, or depending on size of lake, occasionally water should spray up off the bows into the prop and make droplets on the window, indicating water is too rough/pilot needs to throttle down. Just a small thing. Taxiing over 1000rpm is a n00b mistake for seaplane pilots. You shouldn't see it on TAW or RE or fully realistic servers. You'll chew up your prop with spray damage, could overheat your engine on a long taxi (not sure if thats a myth, never let my CHT's get above 300 on the ground) and you dont go much faster (considering the extra horsepower and fuel) until you overcome that bow wave. Takeoffs should be shorter in chop due to the lessened surface tension due to cavitation of the air beneath the floats (air pockets break the surface tension).

Taxiing at 1200rpm dosnt make you much faster than taxiing at 500rpm due to the immense drag in the boyancy gait.

Seaplanes are set to idle slower, say 550, to allow you cast off with less accelleration and turn tighter

Casting off it takes a considerable amount of thinking and preplanning. In the sim, she rides on rails and you dont have to think about it. I'm not casting off and doing a 3m startup, usually ill do the prestart on the ground from the dock, and then untie, hop in and just master on, mags on, fuel pump on for however many seconds I like, then starter on, and she's goin before she can drift and weathervane much. If the engine doesn't start I'm paddling. Having a dockhand helps. Not sure if that needs to be modelled in game. Just a thought. Beaching, pushing off/casting off, docking, all almost non existant. Not necessary but such a big part of float flying.

IDK about WWI and II types, but even with water rudders down a cessna is very hard to turn from upwind to downwind in 15+ knot winds. You will need to do a momentum turn using inertia by trying left turns, then right, then left, or reduce the weathervaning tendency by adding power and raising the nose, shifting the COB Backwards, or a plow turn, or sailing.

FSX - Tightest turn radius occurs with a burst of power, which is backwards. Too many problems to list with FSX.

Attitude on the step doesn't seem to matter, the "sweet spot" is not so "sweet" in sims, but broad, allowing for several degrees of pitch up and down with no apparent resulting loss of acceleration.
Still/Glassy water doesn't seem to affect takeoff distance.

Glassy water does not act like a mirror - probably processing power/cpu same as rear view mirror problems. Glassy water is not "sticky" like real life. 

A nose low attitude on landing in a sim will not make you "dig in" or "bounce" quite like a floatplane if i recall correctly. Even a slightly nose low or flat landing, from a outside observer may not looks no bad, can still cause you to be pushed forward uncomfortably. Flat landings in seaplanes are uncomfortable. Especially with the extra drag of glassy water. If you ever have to land downwind with an engine failure on relatively flat water (protected lake) you gotta be extra careful and keep that nose up. Should act like a tailwheel aircraft and waterloop at high speed with a nose down attitude

One float takeoffs don't reduce drag like they do in real life.

Current

Boat waves

Tailwinds and still winds should lengthen the takeoff run more on a floatplane vs seaplane counterpart, think exponential drag on water

Calm winds and still water you should have trouble judging height above the water, use glassy water technique

Still winds create an illusion that will make you want to fly right into the water.  This video also illustrates how ground effect can keep you flying. He set up 100 FPM descent but was obviously less than between when he felt the false landing vs finishing the bounces. Try to guess when he will touch down for the first time. Betcha cant!

 

On water the plane should pivot around the center of boyancy, and you should be able to shift the CoB back by applying full back elevator pressure - raising the nose up. You should be able to negate or reverse weathervaning tendency with a plow attitude as the nose and bow of floats are up so high, there is equal surface area behind and infront of the pivot point (CoB). I will upload a diagram of this to part one from ASA's "Notes of a Seaplane Instructor." in time.

Pitch Low attitude landing on glassy water Notice how he misjudges his height because of the glassy water, doesn't quite flare enough and touches down ever so slightly nose down, which results in, well, watch. Note: Crashed seaplanes end up upside down most the time. Use glassy water technique.

With ripples or some wind, you can see the water beautifully!!!

Porpoising doesn't seem to exist if i recall correctly

Visual clues to wind on "remote lakes" are almost non existant, but I imagine its not quite possible. IDK. Smoke column so far has proven satisfactory. The windsock is glorious. I cant imagine the wind streaks and "wave catch" (I think thats the term for how waves develop over a certain distance downwind from the shore) will be in games for some time to come. Float pilots don't always have windsocks or smoke columns though, landing in the bush every day. Some wind indicator would be cool like wind streaks on smaller lakes, maybe wave direction & catch, moored boats will weathervane into wind... uh what else.. dust, smoke, flags, ripples.

Ill play with ROF a bit more, maybe compare ROF to real life in a video format or something. I wish I had some flying boat experience to compare. I can maybe talk to the guy at work who flew them a lot. All I really know is you're supposed to land em flatter, and of course you cant land with much bank because of the sponsons... I know its bad if they dig in

Deadheads and submerged rocks, shoreline features, ramps or docks or moors would be cool! 

On a hot day, heavy load, calm water, you may not get airborne! One float takeoffs or finding waves, going over your own waves has worked IRL.
 

Edited August 11, 2017 by 2./JG51_Hobo

[xvii-Dietrich]

Wow. Quite a wealth of information there. I've been through it twice now to try to take it all in. Realistically, to help the devs, the salient points are going to need to be extracted and summarised - checklist style. From a software perspective, I would imaging that there is some form of internal state-machine which defines the different motion regimes.

 

 

 

Longitudinal stability should be less positive than their wheeled counterparts, due to extra surface area ahead of the pivot point, unless extra surface area has been added behind the center of gravity (ventral fin, etc) not sure if this is an existing issue, ill have to test it out to prove it, just a thought that might get overlooked.

One thing I've noticed is that there are no ventral fins on many WWII-era seaplanes (examples: Mitsubishi F1M "Pete", SOC Seagull or Ar-196). However, there is a ventral fin of sorts on the OS2U Kingfisher (the rear support of the main float has a large surface area).

 

 

 

You'll chew up your prop with spray damage, {...}

  

What I don't understand is what exactly causes the prop-spray-damage? And what form does that damage take?

 

 

 

Casting off it takes a considerable amount of thinking and preplanning. In the sim, she rides on rails and you dont have to think about it. I'm not casting off and doing a 3m startup, usually ill do the prestart on the ground from the dock, and then untie, hop in and just master on, mags on, fuel pump on for however many seconds I like, then starter on, and she's goin before she can drift and weathervane much. If the engine doesn't start I'm paddling. Having a dockhand helps. Not sure if that needs to be modelled in game. Just a thought. Beaching, pushing off/casting off, docking, all almost non existant. Not necessary but such a big part of float flying.

 

One thing that is definitely lacking in RoF is the push-off/cast-off. The whole dock-hand thing could be complex to model in a sim, but having some mechanism (e.g. some sort of ramp launch or similar, would be good:  EXAMPLE).

 

 

 

IDK about WWI and II types, but even with water rudders down a cessna is very hard to turn from upwind to downwind in 15+ knot winds. You will need to do a momentum turn using inertia by trying left turns, then right, then left, or reduce the weathervaning tendency by adding power and raising the nose, shifting the COB Backwards, or a plow turn, or sailing.

Ar-196, Seagull and Kingfisher all have water rudders.   The F1M does not.

 

 

 

Glassy water does not act like a mirror - probably processing power/cpu same as rear view mirror problems. Glassy water is not "sticky" like real life.

The difference between chop/glass "stickiness" seems important. I think all seaplanes had a "step" in the float to break the adhesion effect.

 

Sidenote: the lack of a step in the float was one of the reasons why Kress failed to be the first powered flight in 1901...  REF.

 

 

   

One float takeoffs don't reduce drag like they do in real life.

I think they do in RoF.  I remember learning about it in a RoF training video. LINK

 

 

 

Still winds create an illusion that will make you want to fly right into the water.  This video also illustrates how ground effect can keep you flying. He set up 100 FPM descent but was obviously less than between when he felt the false landing vs finishing the bounces. Try to guess when he will touch down for the first time. Betcha cant!

Hehe... interesting video. The captions (and your hint) made me quite conservative in predicting the touchdown. Regardless, the landing is so smooth, that it is impossible to tell. But I didn't expect the bounce to put him back on the air-wave.

 

 

 

Ill play with ROF a bit more, maybe compare ROF to real life in a video format or something.

A RoF/RL video comparison would be awesome.

 

 

 

I wish I had some flying boat experience to compare. I can maybe talk to the guy at work who flew them a lot. All I really know is you're supposed to land em flatter, and of course you cant land with much bank because of the sponsons... I know its bad if they dig in

 

Hehe... reminds me of this video of a Do-24 landing. LINK

 

 

 

Deadheads and submerged rocks, shoreline features, ramps or docks or moors would be cool!

 

Cool idea, but submerged rocks will not happen in IL2. It is equivalent to the "random mechanical failure", and the Devs have categorically ruled that one out.

[SCG_Hobo]

Hey! Thanks for the response. I'll keep it short since my last post was so long.

Prop spray damage is fairly common. I get it on mid-large lakes with whitecaps. As the bows comes down on a crest the next water splashes up and gets sucked into the propellor arc, if its bad you can hear it and the windsheild will get waterdroplets on it. Apparently it can open up a nick in your prop that compounds and you risk separating a blade tip. Not sure if it's ever happened. The blade tips on the 185 I fly almost feel like very coarse sandpaper on the leading edge. Similar to the nick a gravel rock will put in the prop. Almost enough to catch my thumbnail on but at that point it should really be filed down by a mechanic. If I were to do a long taxi through rough chop, jesus, I see why they say you can easily ruin a propellor. If I am able to pull out my phone and get a video of it when it happens (im not going to look for it) ill record it.

And yes, that Do-24... you land em more flat but not that nose low

Edited August 4, 2017 by 2./JG51_Hobo

[xvii-Dietrich]

While hunting about, I found this video on seaplane flying. "Flying Floats" (1973), approx. 20 minutes.

[Holtzauge]

Great info and thanks for posting it! Interesting to read about all the small details you need to keep in mind when flying a floatplane.

 

I did a few circuits in a Tripacer with floats way back in the 80´s and what made the greatest impression on me was how bumpy and how much punishment the aircraft gets from the floats via the struts. Water is hard stuff at those speeds and you really miss the oleo dampening that come with wheels.

 

Regarding comparisons of sim and IRL: I guess the problem modeling this in a sim is due to the floatplane “living” in the zone between two mediums: You have a system which is half plane and half boat and the interaction between water and air like planing and wavemaking is quite a bit more complex than “simply” flying in air so I’m not surprised it's difficult to get this right in a simulator.

[SCG_Hobo]

Great Vid Dietrich

There is a lot of great footage in that film that illustrates what I'm talking about.

Thanks for sharing!

I'll throw some of my favourite seaplane vids here as entertainment while we wait for potential seaplanes in Il2  

1. How Not to Land a Norseman - I think that's from "captain of the clouds" which has some rare bushplanes incl Fairchild 71C, and big actors for the day. I think this is the prototype norseman they almost wrecked. Would be great to see a Norseman in Il2!! . Aerial sequences directed by Paul Mantz.
Making of Captain of the Clouds: http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/203/Captains-of-the-Clouds--the-making-of-a-BCATP-Classic-Movie.aspx

2. Insane Alaska Back country Landing - watch how long it takes him to come off the step, how high the nose comes up, and how slow he is when he does finally rest in the buoyancy gait/idle taxi. This is modelled incorrectly in ROF which I will show later in a video - 

3. Glassy Water Landings |  Another Glassy  | Rough Water 

 

4. Flying with Jeff 

5. He Nuts 

6. Bush Pilot - Reflections on a Canadian Myth 

7. Flight Chops - Float Training

8. Wings over Canada - Darren gets his float rating

 

9. Early Days of Float Flying - with JJ Frey

10. Mars Water Bomber 

11. Ar196 | He115 | PBY Documentary | Wings of the Luftwaffe: Seaplanes

Edited September 4, 2017 by 2./JG51_Hobo

[xvii-Dietrich]

Cool videos. And I see you've updated the first post too. Great! 

[xvii-Dietrich]

Wow. I've just seen you've put up yet another update in the original post. Excellent! Thanks for doing that.

 

Also, that's a generous offer you make to the devs there.

 

I'm still wading through the first set of documentation (still reading about water waves). There's a lot of really detailed information in there, that takes time to read and understand.

[SCG_Hobo]

Wow. I've just seen you've put up yet another update in the original post. Excellent! Thanks for doing that.

 

Also, that's a generous offer you make to the devs there.

 

I'm still wading through the first set of documentation (still reading about water waves). There's a lot of really detailed information in there, that takes time to read and understand.

Yup. 

Lots of info eh? I think I can let her be now if I want. Part 4 is a bit rough. I am temped to re-record part#4 as I could shorten it and make the voice clearer. I also have some videos on my phone and gopro that help illustrate these things, which I may upload over time. I have to dump/delete a bunch of files off my phone anyway.

 

You don't necessarily need to know and understand every bit of that advanced part to be a good float pilot. However the development of seaplanes in sims requires the higher level of knowledge to achieve a consistent level of realism and quality between landplane and seaplane mechanics, hence their inclusion.  If you want some easier reading, pick up a copy of Notes of a Seaplane Instructor. Its the perfect middle between technical and laymen 

 

And as to my offer I don't usually have to pay full retail price for these sorts of things, and will fly without pay for those 20m. The boss doesn't mind me showing people the airport/planes. He feels its like marketing. If I spend a few hours over the next month doing that It would pay for the flight XD. I set aside some tips too. Might cost me like 70 US in the end. Pretty cheap for a seaplane if you ask me! Maybe they would give me a product key for Il2: Battle of Midway too    Now dont you all flock here now, the rest of y'all doots gotta pay full price, plus tax & tip.  

Edited August 17, 2017 by 2./JG51_Hobo

[xvii-Dietrich]

Part 4 is a bit rough. I am temped to re-record part#4 as I could shorten it and make the voice clearer.

If you are going to make another evaluation video of RoF, could I please request that you also comment on the external views?

 

I would say that from a sim point of view, getting the feel right from the cockpit perspective is most important, but sometimes you can learn a lot from watching what happens from the outside.

 

 

 

You don't necessarily need to know and understand every bit of that advanced part to be a good float pilot. However the development of seaplanes in sims requires the higher level of knowledge to achieve a consistent level of realism and quality between landplane and seaplane mechanics, hence their inclusion.

I certainly don't mind the technical stuff... in fact, the more the better!

 

That said, all those references are certainly appreciated. No doubt, others will be interested.

[Retnek]

... No doubt, others will be interested.

 

You bet! Please give us plenty. Hints on casual readings are nice, too, but if there is some in-deep hardcore-stuff

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by 216th_Retnek

[SCG_Hobo]

If you are going to make another evaluation video of RoF, could I please request that you also comment on the external views?

 

Great idea! I'll keep that in mind if I make another video.

 

Did a clean install of windows so it will take me a bit anyway. In the meantime I have started to record some video from inside the real float-planes. 

 

 

 

That said, all those references are certainly appreciated. No doubt, others will be interested.

 

Glad to know you're interested. Thanks. I dont want to upload any more of the textbook pages. I suggest if you're really interested you pick up a copy of one of the books. Dr. Dale De Remer's is the best but it aint cheap. About $200 bucks Canadian. It's also a couple centimeters thick.

 

Notes of a Seaplane Instructor is probably your best bet. Its less technical than Dr. Remer's book but also way more affordable. It's actually readable cover to cover where as Remer is more realistically a thing of reference.

 

In case you didnt have enough reading, here is a free FAA seaplane/skiplane manual from 2004.

http://www.islandcoastalaviation.com/resources/FAA-H-8083-23%20Seaplane%20Operations%20Handbook.pdf

Edited August 18, 2017 by 2./JG51_Hobo

[xvii-Dietrich]

In case you didnt have enough reading, here is a free FAA seaplane/skiplane manual from 2004.

http://www.islandcoastalaviation.com/resources/FAA-H-8083-23%20Seaplane%20Operations%20Handbook.pdf

 

That's a great reference that!

 

Thanks for posting it, and for updating all your other posts with so much detailed information.

[SCG_Hobo]

Thanks Dietrich!! 

I consider the first post 'complete' now, but will continue to add resources and updates of course here and there. I think I'm going to run with it, and have started a Seaplanes/Simulators/History youtube channel. 

One last thing for now; here is a pic of seaplane prop damage. It's unbelievable. This has developed over the summer, and the plane has only had a few moments of spray going through it as far as I know.om/RqKlehP.jpg

Edited September 5, 2017 by 2./JG51_Hobo

[xvii-Dietrich]

Interesting photograph, but I still don't get it with the spray damage.

 

Some water splashes up and hits the prop, which is then abraded and pitted to the extreme.

 

But... wouldn't that mean that flying through rain would result in the same effect?

 

 

 

PS:  Cool YouTube channel you've got there. There is some really nice videos.

[Turban]

The prop damage on that picture is very light and still acceptable. You can also see they worked on it, usually you try to reshape the metal bits with a steel shaft like a screwdriver, and then maybe grind it gently.

 

Spray causes can be bad habits from the pilot, or rough weather, or spray deflector not correctly angle...or all 3..

 

Spray is hell on props. Little drops of water hitting the blade at very high speed create damage that really takes a toll after a while.

 

I'll get picture of ours, some are pretty nasty and we'll have to retired some props/blades early

[Retnek]

For friends of the Ar 196 and He 60 (!) here's good news:

 

König, Christian

Adler über See
Bordflugzeug und Küstenaufklärer Arado Ar 196

204 Seiten, 70 Zeichnungen, 291 Bilder, 3 Diagramme, Hardcover, Großformat, 21 x 28,7 cm

ISBN  978-3-86933-163-8

39,90 €

http://www.helios-verlag.com/index.php?id=299

 

 

König, Christian

"Erste am Feind"
Bordflugzeug und Küstenaufklärer Heinkel He 60

140 Seiten, 296 Abbildungen, davon 261 s/w-Fotos, 35 Zeichnungen, Hardcover, DIN A4, 21 x 28 cm

ISBN  978-3-86933-187-4

34,00 €

http://www.helios-verlag.com/index.php?id=326

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Always wanted to fly this one.....