Using flaps in flight and combat.

[danniego]

I try to learn to fly (and taking off and landing and staying in the air, etc) and looking at some YT vid's by players into combat i see they are using flaps during flight and combat maneuvering.

I thought, as noobs are supposed to think, flaps were only needed for take off and landing.

Could any Ace Pilot shed some light on the why, how and when?

 

 

[Finkeren]

Flaps in combat were used historically, but very rarely, and nowhere near the extent we see the AI use it in SP and some players in MP (particularly on the Yaks)

 

I personally never use flaps in combat for the simple reason that it drains a lot of your energy in both maneuvers and level flight, which is really not something you need during combat.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I use them in the 190 at the top of loops if I am in danger of stalling. As soon as my nose points back down they go right back up though.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

You know while inverted flaps do not help you.. they do very much the reverse.

Most planes call them lift spoilers when they mounted to top side of a wing flown right side up..
The effect is the same.
Flaps while inverted spoil lift.

Also not being picky but if you stalling at the top of a loop thats not a loop. :D


 

[ZachariasX]

As Fink says. Use flaps for takeoff and landing. What they primarily do to your aircraft (for your purposes!) is change the attitude of your aircraft. If you're slow, you have nose high up, barring the view ahead. Deploying flaps will bring down the nose to better see ahead. It means you can see the runway better during approach and on some aircraft it can assist to takeoff the aircraft without having to pull up the nose, you can let it fly off.

 

The aspect of added lift when deployed is really something you shouldn't count on when you're pushing it in slow turnfights. There are people out there who do such, but there are two kind of such players: the ones that are dead very quickly and the others who can still snipe other aircraft at 800 meter range. AI will try to do its best and it is obviously programmed to deploy flaps once it gets too slow.

 

In reality, flaps are adding a lot of drag, making you getting faster very hard. Also, flaps can only be deplyed once you're unhealthy slow anyway. If you can deploy flaps in combat, you're in badly.

[ZachariasX]

You know while inverted flaps do not help you.. they do very much the reverse.

Most planes call them lift spoilers when they mounted to top side of a wing flown right side up..

The effect is the same.

Flaps while inverted spoil lift.

Also not being picky but if you stalling at the top of a loop thats not a loop. :D

 

Not if he's still pulling g's on top of the loop. Then the flaps will help him.

 

But he's losing energy like that. If one is that slow on the beginning of a loop, you should roll ot of it much sooner and maintain good maneuvering speed and not force it over the top or you will the fight in a worse position. You can do such a "prophang" if you're far above everyone else and use it as a start to dive on your prey. But if there is someone up there with you, you're just a slow, fat target.

[216th_Jordan]

You know while inverted flaps do not help you.. they do very much the reverse.

 

Most planes call them lift spoilers when they mounted to top side of a wing flown right side up..

The effect is the same.

Flaps while inverted spoil lift.

 

Also not being picky but if you stalling at the top of a loop thats not a loop. :D

 

 

 

I think what he means is getting more lift with a downward vector, thus getting the plane down quicker.

[ShamrockOneFive]

I rarely employ flaps in any kind of combat situation. So rarely I can't remember the last time I may have done something like that. I'd avoid using them altogether unless you're really desperate and am willing to trade a lot of speed for a last ditch effort to get a shot - if you fail you'll probably be too low energy to make a second attempt.

 

There are aircraft like the Ki-43 Oscar that had combat flaps purpose designed to improve the turn rate. Those would be worth using but are typically a little different in configuration than any of the aircraft we currently have.

[SCG_ItsDrifter]

I only use my flaps when im in a 190 doing scissors.AS it helps me slow down so the enemy can overshoot me, as that's what the scissors are for.

Heres a example:

[II/JG11_ATLAN_VR]

Nice video

[dburne]

I only use flaps in my Yak-1 when landing.

[SCG_ItsDrifter]

Nice video

 Thanks man :D

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

I think what he means is getting more lift with a downward vector, thus getting the plane down quicker.

that would make it slower as when you dive flaps add drag

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Maybe it's modelled wrong? I'm no expert, all I know is that if I am on the verge of a stall while pulling over, it helps.

 

As I said, they go right back up as soon as I'm over the top.

[ZachariasX]

Maybe it's modelled wrong? I'm no expert, all I know is that if I am on the verge of a stall while pulling over, it helps.

As I said, they go right back up as soon as I'm over the top.

Don't pull that much on top of the loop. But in your situation, yes it should help.

[busdriver]

I try to learn to fly (and taking off and landing and staying in the air, etc) and looking at some YT vid's by players into combat i see they are using flaps during flight and combat maneuvering.

I thought, as noobs are supposed to think, flaps were only needed for take off and landing.

Could any Ace Pilot shed some light on the why, how and when?

 

In a generic sense, up to 15-20 degrees of flaps do more to increase lift rather than adding a bunch of drag. Beyond 20 degrees of flaps, then you're taking an increasingly big drag penalty. So to apply this in game, you need to know if your particular fighter has incremental flap settings or simply UP/FULL DOWN. I don't use flaps whilst dogfighting in the sim (based upon my RL experience). It's the former fighter pilot in me that knows that flap actuators and other hardware were not designed for high G maneuvering stress. And I'd probably forget to retract them and wonder why I can't accelerate. But I suck at MP dogfighting...just ask Requiem.

 

A corollary to this 15-20 degree effect can be applied to flying twin engine airplanes in the sim (or real life). Feel free to use 15-20 degrees of flaps for takeoff. This will keep your Bf-110 from rolling into the weeds before getting airborne. If you are trying to land with an "engine out" (you're flying on one engine), only put out about 15-20 degrees of flaps for landing. Yes your approach speed will be faster, but that speed is a safety margin in case you need to go around and try it again. If you use Full Flaps and need to go around, the airplane may not accelerate. And unless you retract flaps to 20 before applying power you run the risk of getting too slow and then cursing your luck whilst the plane rolls over on its back as the good engine roars to full power.

[19//Moach]

I have noticed something these days which may be something of a huge deal about this "issue" 

 

 

many times flying near (but not in formation with) friendly Yaks, I had the impression that they had their flaps lowered, seeing them from a distance.

 

that is, their reduced LoD models at a distance of a few hundred meters, such as what you'd have in a dogfight, have a weird glitch where looking from below, the area under the flaps appears as though they were open.  upon closer inspection, they had really been closed all along.

 

 

this may easily both confirm all sightings AND simultaneously discredit all claims of "use of flaps in combat"

 

it is more likely than not, the enemy pilot did in fact see what looked like lowered flaps - however, his opponent never really had them that way.  only the visual glitch seeing that aircraft at a dogfight-like distance would make it look as if they were undeniably open.  it is a very convincing visual artifact.

 

 

this would explain the myth-like absence of confirmation about this practice, and the certainty of those who claim such encounters for a fact. 

 

 

in fact, they DID see it... or what looked indistinguishable from it.... 

 

 

it does explain also why many such reports feature claims of "impossible acceleration and energy retention" - those may indeed have been impossible, had the flaps been ever really down

Edited July 31, 2017 by 19//Moach

[Hirachi]

They were use planes such as the N1k2 Shiden - Kai had an automatic flap system which was used not only for landing but also aiding in slow-speed air combat manoeuvring.

[CUJO_1970]

this would explain the myth-like absence of confirmation about this practice, and the certainty of those who claim such encounters for a fact. 

 

 

Every one of these were taken online. Consider this your confirmation:

Edited August 18, 2017 by CUJO1970

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

If you fly russian planes .... put full flaps and leave them there for take off, landing, combat etc etc. They give you magical hovering power, unreal acceleration and the best thing is you never lose speed through turns or climbs while you bait germans on the deck whilst your buddies line them up. 

 

Enjoy!

Edited August 18, 2017 by =TBAS=DendroAspis

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

I only use my flaps when im in a 190 doing scissors.AS it helps me slow down so the enemy can overshoot me, as that's what the scissors are for.

Heres a example:

Absolutely masterful piloting skills of the 190 there Drifter. Nice flying.

[ema33ig]

I only use my flaps when im in a 190 doing scissors.AS it helps me slow down so the enemy can overshoot me, as that's what the scissors are for.

Heres a example:

Pff, Arcade. No man would fly like this ...

[Irgendjemand]

I only use my flaps when im in a 190 doing scissors.AS it helps me slow down so the enemy can overshoot me, as that's what the scissors are for.

Heres a example:

 

And then? What can you do when a YAK has even or higher energylevel? Nothing!

The Yak will run circles around you.

The rollrates being messed up as they are right now youre left for dead in a one on one co E encounter if there is no significant amount of height left you can burn to try and flee. And even then the lasers will get you if the YAKer is only a decent shot.

My hope lies in the new FMs. I hope they bring some well needed changes and push everything a little more in direction of realism.

 

EDIT: And on the video: What i see is a YAK that just stupid. Every only decent YAK-jokey would have simply slowed down, get on your six and smoke you.

Thsi guy just LET you win practically. Typical noob behavior.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[HR_Tumu]

nice video 2/jg51

 

are you sure dendro about you are talking? i fly red, and when i use flaps i lost speed... maybe my instalation its wrong.

 

I supose the guy come here to ask , are looking for help, no for propaganda.

[Aap]

 

 

EDIT: And on the video: What i see is a YAK that just stupid. Every only decent YAK-jokey would have simply slowed down, get on your six and smoke you. Thsi guy just LET you win practically. Typical noob behavior.

 

Would be nice if you could agree on a duel against DR1FT3R on Berloga duel area and show us how it should be done.

[MadisonV44]

And then? What can you do when a YAK has even or higher energylevel? Nothing!

The Yak will run circles around you.

The rollrates being messed up as they are right now youre left for dead in a one on one co E encounter if there is no significant amount of height left you can burn to try and flee. And even then the lasers will get you if the YAKer is only a decent shot.

My hope lies in the new FMs. I hope they bring some well needed changes and push everything a little more in direction of realism.

 

EDIT: And on the video: What i see is a YAK that just stupid. Every only decent YAK-jokey would have simply slowed down, get on your six and smoke you.

Thsi guy just LET you win practically. Typical noob behavior.

 

+100

 

Those guys were obviously fighting 1 vs 1 and full flaps from end to end of the video  . Hope the new FM will help to recover more realistic behaviors.

 

In real combats you should not take any risk loosing your energy (to avoid the fire of your opponent's wingman and other planes in the area). Keeping your energy is the key. Using flaps on energy plane like a 190 is a pure nonsense. On the Yak side I'm pretty sure that the full flaps position was not used during WWII. In the game, every yak deploying full flaps becomes a slow, easy and motionless target. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by MadisonV44

[Irgendjemand]

Would be nice if you could agree on a duel against DR1FT3R on Berloga duel area and show us how it should be done.

 

I am not claiming to be uber or whatever. Probably more like mediocre. Might be because I actually have a life to attend to.

But smoking a 190 in a co/e engagement does not require you to be a supergamer if you sit in a YAK.

 

[Aap]

 

 

I am not claiming to be uber or whatever. Probably more like mediocre. Might be because I actually have a life to attend to. But smoking a 190 in a co/e engagement does not require you to be a supergamer if you sit in a YAK.

 

That is all fine, would just be interesting to see, how "only decent" Yak pilot simply gets to DR1FT3R's six and smokes him, when he is flying Fw190 like in the video.

[Irgendjemand]

It was really not smart flown. But He was trying and the YAK pilot was as stupid as to not simply dump flaps as well, decelerate and stick to his six.
At least this is what happens to me 90% of the time when I try to do scissors in a 190 no matter against wich russian plane. You always get smoked. And even if the red overshoots. He will start dancing circles around you that you simply cannot follow.

 

EDIT: The honest 190 jockey will agree to what I write if he has some decent time in the crate. Simply because its the forthright truth.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[Aap]

Those guys were obviously fighting 1 vs 1 and full flaps from end to end of the video

 

You are probably talking about some other video?

 

 

Using flaps on energy plane like a 190 is a pure nonsense.

 

 Drifter said: "I only use my flaps when im in a 190 doing scissors.AS it helps me slow down so the enemy can overshoot me, as that's what the scissors are for." Followed by an example video.

 

 

It was really not smart flown.

 

You mean the Fw190 was not smart flown? Looked pretty good to me, turning the tables from defensive situation to shoot down the attacking enemy in half a minute.

 

 

YAK pilot was as stupid as to not simply dump flaps as well, decelerate and stick to his six.

 

I have understood that dumping flaps in Yak would not decelerate the plane? He did use his flaps at the end though. But like I said before, would be nice to see how a "only decent" yak pilot would simply shoot down Drifter in a Fw190. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

nice video 2/jg51

 

are you sure dendro about you are talking? i fly red, and when i use flaps i lost speed... maybe my instalation its wrong.

 

I supose the guy come here to ask , are looking for help, no for propaganda.

 

No I don't know what I am talking about... I am a NOOB but flying a yak is fun with full flaps.... you hover out of an insanely sharp turn, then chase after a zooming 109,shoot it with your laser and either its wings or entire tail falls off .....easy peasy....... whats not to like about the yak with full flaps?

 

As for the lagg, try turn that at slow speed WITHOUT flaps. Same with the Rata. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by =TBAS=DendroAspis

[Rambos_Nachbar]

I had to relearn the usage flaps as well, coming from War Thunder and IL 2 1946, it is way more realistic in BoX. I wasnt expecting to outturn a Hurricane in a Bf110 like in WT, but still.

[Irgendjemand]

You mean the Fw190 was not smart flown? Looked pretty good to me, turning the tables from defensive situation to shoot down the attacking enemy in half a minute.

 

 

Both were not flown well. The 190 for dumping flaps and trying to scissor at that energylevels (he would have probably gotten away just extending) and the YAK for not dumping the flaps earlier and just smoke him.

 

In that situation drifter was just lucky the YAK did obviously not know what he was doing. Otherwise he would have been toast.

 

 

I have understood that dumping flaps in Yak would not decelerate the plane? He did use his flaps at the end though. But like I said before, would be nice to see how a "only decent" yak pilot would simply shoot down Drifter in a Fw190. 

 

 

Sure would the flaps decelerate him. Would have been a smart thing to dump them earlier or simply climb, dive and repeat until 190 is completely sitting duck due to no energy at all.

Ask him yourself. I am sure he will tell you that the outcome shown in his video does not reflect the usual outcome. At least if he is honest.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[Aap]

 

 

Both were not flown well. The 190 for dumping flaps and trying to scissor at that energylevels (he would have probably gotten away just extending) and the YAK for not dumping the flaps earlier and just smoke him.

 

Okay, so with the energy states that we can see in the video during 0:10 - 0:15 the Fw190 should have escaped the "lasers" instead of shooting down the attacker in less than a minute later? Well, we come back again to my original hope that you would be able to set up a duel with Drifter on Berloga. Would just be nice to see how it is done the right way.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Irgendjemand, what do you get from making these 'hidden truthz' declarations? This game has a few thousand members who play the same aircraft you play and can easily observe that things are working perfectly fine. Either your game is magically bugged (despite receiving the same updates as everyone else) or you have a knack for exaggerating things for some kind of personal satisfaction.

[Irgendjemand]

Irgendjemand, what do you get from making these 'hidden truthz' declarations? This game has a few thousand members who play the same aircraft you play and can easily observe that things are working perfectly fine. Either your game is magically bugged (despite receiving the same updates as everyone else) or you have a knack for exaggerating things for some kind of personal satisfaction.

 

He again. I thought I already put you on ignore. Not? Well, NOW its done.

 

Kemp: If I meet him online some day I will ask him for a duel and I will press the recordbutton and post the track here. OK?

I will not setup some meetings since I am not ceratain I can keep them because there is actually reallife going on for me. And I consider that more important than gaming.

 

[HR_Tumu]

About video, is clear Yak made some mistakes.. but is clear too, foke do good maneuvers and manage better than opponent the combat. For me is a nice video and good example of "short" dogfight, i think foke was more smart than yak.ç

 

Dendro, excuse me if my words ofend u, im playing more than 15 years ... but when im flying a 109  i feel like a noob. Is the true. I see the enemys doing increible things whit the 109 or 190 , imposible shots,  increible climbings, super scissors at super slow speed... the most easy for me is think, all german plane are uber and super easy to fly.... but when i try do the same.... i fail and most of times was defeated. Is logical.... aircraft is good and can do the things i saw before .. but dont do the things pressing a button " auto mode " , is the hability of pilot what they made posible.

 

In your first post u come here and say russian planes ( on last post u start to talk only about yak, but first post is about all russian planes ) , only have to down flaps, no care about speed, and practically pilot no need do nothing for win... for me, you use very simple point of view.

 

 

I cant talk too much about german planes, but like i read adobe, keep the energy  on combat and use flaps keeping on mind the energy retention is vital. When u deploy flaps ( on my game instalation) u lost speed .... some times ( especially on defence manouvers ) u are interested on lost speed . Is true u gain sustentaion , and u can close more your turn... but all this have a energy cost.

 

I hope my last words can answer something about question of this post.

 

Flying red planes, the use of flaps have variations.  Planes like lagg and Mig have to  use  flaps ( some percentatge deployed ) on slow combat for have more sustentation, but not full flaps.  yaks can use flaps, but for me only below certain speed, or your cost of energy will be too expensive..  and talking about I-16 ... isnt good modeled for me... for me combat on I-16 always have to be without flaps. Only use flap for landing. The use of flaps on I-16 for turn i think show us something is wrong whit this plane. But maybe im wrong about i-16. My feel is the actuall  turn ratio of i-16 is a bit long.

Edited August 18, 2017 by RedEye_Tumu