Level Bombing. Too acurate?

[III/JG2Gustav05]

Whose not calm?

 

Why are Stuka's not necessary?

I think I discovered the mind-set that this comment arises from a few more posts down.

Score/winning the map rather than experiencing a given aircraft.

 

This bears no resemblance to why I fly this sim, but to each his own.

The comment just went over my head when I first read it is all.

That's why i ask you to calm down before post, My point is the level bombing is too accurate, not the stuka, if the real life level bombing is so accurate like what we have in box there is no reason to develope stuka any more. you are funny.

[Danziger]

I imagine there are players that have racked up hundreds of times the air to air kills of the finest WW2 aces yet none of them are complaining that the cannons are too accurate...

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

The only thing that makes you miss in level bombing is PILOT(PLAYER) error..

There is no random factors really no significant RNG that severely impacts your chances.

[TXSailor_1]

The only thing that makes you miss in level bombing is PILOT(PLAYER) error..

 

There is no random factors really no significant RNG that severely impacts your chances.

 

There SHOULDN'T really be RNG to hurt the chances. It wasn't LUCK that determined bombing accuracy. 

 

Now, what DID affect it, and has been suggested here, are weather and computational changes.

[Gambit21]

That's why i ask you to calm down before post, My point is the level bombing is too accurate, not the stuka, if the real life level bombing is so accurate like what we have in box there is no reason to develope stuka any more. you are funny.

 

Yeah it's not that complex.

My point was that I wasn't never anything but calm...but who cares.

Peace

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I imagine there are players that have racked up hundreds of times the air to air kills of the finest WW2 aces yet none of them are complaining that the cannons are too accurate...

Love this.

 

Though I think I recall some complaints about the 23mm; just not from the ones who use it! A luftwhine, I think it's called.

Edited July 28, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Other than RNG just curious what other mathematical system would you use to determine Variable bomb drift and sight inaccuracy.
There is not many choices other than some sort of RNG Engine given limits to work within?

Like chart below i quickly made up but this would Represent a still VERY VERY Accurate bombing simulation for world war 2 Tech levels..
____________________________________
2 & 12 = 50 meters spread
6 & 8 = 5 meters spread
7 = 2.5 meters spread
3,4,5,9,10,11 = 10-45 meters spread (Linear progression between above spreads)
_______________________________________________________________________


As an Active Dedicated bomber i would be most happy with a rng lack of Accuracy simulation modeled similar to the above

Edited July 28, 2017 by =TBAS=Sshadow14

[Haza]

Other than RNG just curious what other mathematical system would you use to determine Variable bomb drift and sight inaccuracy.

There is not many choices other than some sort of RNG Engine given limits to work within?

 

Like chart below i quickly made up but this would Represent a still VERY VERY Accurate bombing simulation for world war 2 Tech levels..

____________________________________

2 & 12 = 50 meters spread

6 & 8 = 5 meters spread

7 = 2.5 meters spread

3,4,5,9,10,11 = 10-45 meters spread (Linear progression between above spreads)

_______________________________________________________________________

 

As an Active Dedicated bomber i would be most happy with a rng lack of Accuracy simulation modeled similar to the above

 

Come off it Shadow, I would suggest that 99% of your bombing is completed at <500m above the target (including your loops).  Therefore, I think your accuracy is not going to be altered by wind drift, earths rotation or a Force 5 gale, although I guess the extra targets you need to hit on WOL to win a map (that you continually inform us about on WOL server), just allows you to further hone your He111 dive-bombing skill. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Haza

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Actually to clarify 99% of my bomb releases Are below 25 meters @ 500-550 kph
so wind and anything else plays no factor, Just my release timing/yaw and the Angular Momentum i put on the bomb plays a part. i never release above 200m

What i am talking about above has nothing to do with dive bombing i am talking about the Star Wars Space Laser Guided Bombsights..

The bombsights are MORE ACCURATE Than Unguided bombs on B52 or other leading bombers in the world.
No Way even a F15 Dumbfire Bomb will hit a 10m building from 5K if all weather was calm and perfect

Edit: Also i keep reminding people of bombing as im sick of carrying the team with bombing runs when im online while 190 n 109 jocks are flying around @ 6K crying about not being able to see an VVS as they all 5,000m Below them.

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by =TBAS=Sshadow14

[F/JG300_Gruber]

 

The Factors that make the Game easier than RL:

 

• Finding a Target. Ingame the Targets just conveniently pop into view, IRL the World is there constantly, so you have to actually know what you want to hit as well. or you'll just blow up some Greenhouses. The World can be quite ambiguous if unfamiliar. And things under Camouflage are much less visible IRL than ingame as well. They Blend in. Ingame they don't. 
• Intrument Error. Your Instruments are a Major Factor and often out by 10% or more depending on Weather Condition. Especially Altitude and Speed depend on Temperature a lot. Humidity can also ruin your Readouts. Ingame the Bombsight Gauges are all corrected. IRL your Altimeter will show higher than True Altitude in Cold Weather, and lower than True in Warm Weather. This also ruins you IAS to TAS Calculations. This is highly simplified ingame. 
• Unkown Weather Conditions at the Target.
• Communication Lag between Bomber Gunner and Pilot. 
• Map inaccuracy and imprecision/Fog of War. 
• Bomb Ballisitics. Ingame all Bombs behave similarly. IRL a 50kg Bomb would behave completely different to a 1000. Light Bombs have a longer Drop Time and lower Speed and more Surface Area, which results in more Spread, more Vertical Drop etc. 

 

On the bomb ballistic stuff, in BoS the 50kg do fall shorter than the 500 or 1000kg. I always account for this parameter when bombing from 3k and higher. I haven't payed attention for the spread but 50 do spread noticeably from higher alt. More or same as the heavier ones, this I can't tell. So the ballistics are good to me in game.

 

Other than that, I agree with this list, and you can add :

 

- Wind strength mostly unknown,  you can guesstimate the drift and get a very rough approximation of it's parameters but it's nowhere near accurate enough to ensure you get your bombsight set up right. No meteo tab available.

- NO AUTOLEVEL ! German bombers like the 111 do have an autopilot but it's only linked to the rudder to keep a constant heading. The level flight is only achieved through proper trimming, and can easily be thrown of with each course alteration during the bomb run (this also affecting speed as a side effect).

 

Also in pilot anecdotes, there were several times where when they got over the target and it was covered in clouds, they dropped their bombs blindly assuming they should be approximately over it. 

No wonder in these conditions that bombs fell off by miles, because if you are bombing from 6-7k on a clear day with your target in sight, there is no possible ways that a bomb stray off by a kilometer if the crew have a rough idea of what they are doing.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Thats ok if you remove Auto level from all Fighters then also

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Actually to clarify 99% of my bomb releases Are below 25 meters @ 500-550 kph

so wind and anything else plays no factor, Just my release timing/yaw and the Angular Momentum i put on the bomb plays a part. i never release above 200m

 

 

 

 

 

 

This.  This is how you bomb.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Thats ok if you remove Auto level from all Fighters then also

 

I'm good with that.

[TXSailor_1]

Actually to clarify 99% of my bomb releases Are below 25 meters @ 500-550 kph

so wind and anything else plays no factor, Just my release timing/yaw and the Angular Momentum i put on the bomb plays a part. i never release above 200m

 

What i am talking about above has nothing to do with dive bombing i am talking about the Star Wars Space Laser Guided Bombsights..

 

The bombsights are MORE ACCURATE Than Unguided bombs on B52 or other leading bombers in the world.

No Way even a F15 Dumbfire Bomb will hit a 10m building from 5K if all weather was calm and perfect

 

Edit: Also i keep reminding people of bombing as im sick of carrying the team with bombing runs when im online while 190 n 109 jocks are flying around @ 6K crying about not being able to see an VVS as they all 5,000m Below them.

 

 

 

 

LOL. Okay, first off, if you're bombing from <25m, shut up about being realistic. Were this REALISTIC, you would be getting fragged by your own bomb. See, without para-bombs, there are minimum drop altitudes for bombs... If you''ve NEVER released above 200m, you're gaming the system MORE than your complaint about level bombing accuracy. You have lost all credibility in the argument. Good day sir.

 

And yes, an F-15 unguided bomb can hit a 10m building from 5,000'. 

 

 

 

 

On the bomb ballistic stuff, in BoS the 50kg do fall shorter than the 500 or 1000kg. I always account for this parameter when bombing from 3k and higher. I haven't payed attention for the spread but 50 do spread noticeably from higher alt. More or same as the heavier ones, this I can't tell. So the ballistics are good to me in game.

 

Other than that, I agree with this list, and you can add :

 

- Wind strength mostly unknown,  you can guesstimate the drift and get a very rough approximation of it's parameters but it's nowhere near accurate enough to ensure you get your bombsight set up right. No meteo tab available.

- NO AUTOLEVEL ! German bombers like the 111 do have an autopilot but it's only linked to the rudder to keep a constant heading. The level flight is only achieved through proper trimming, and can easily be thrown of with each course alteration during the bomb run (this also affecting speed as a side effect).

 

Also in pilot anecdotes, there were several times where when they got over the target and it was covered in clouds, they dropped their bombs blindly assuming they should be approximately over it. 

No wonder in these conditions that bombs fell off by miles, because if you are bombing from 6-7k on a clear day with your target in sight, there is no possible ways that a bomb stray off by a kilometer if the crew have a rough idea of what they are doing.

 

On the Auto-level issue, that's a game necessity. In real life, the pilot and bombardier were two different people. The pilot could actively hold the aircraft level while the bombardier did his thing. In the game, we can't separate the positions, so the auto-level is a necessary evil.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

LOL. Okay, first off, if you're bombing from <25m, shut up about being realistic. Were this REALISTIC, you would be getting fragged by your own bomb. See, without para-bombs, there are minimum drop altitudes for bombs... If you''ve NEVER released above 200m, you're gaming the system MORE than your complaint about level bombing accuracy. You have lost all credibility in the argument. Good day sir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You set a timed fuse and problem solved.  You can even watch the fuses spinning on the tips of the bombs.

 

Standard practice for the VVS bombs in WW2 was a 5 second fuse for drops below 100m.

 

And PS, our Super Tucanos in Colombia drop from that low all the time, seen it myself.

[curiousGamblerr]

You set a timed fuse and problem solved.  You can even watch the fuses spinning on the tips of the bombs.

 

Standard practice for the VVS bombs in WW2 was a 5 second fuse for drops below 100m.

 

And PS, our Super Tucanos in Colombia drop from that low all the time, seen it myself.

 

This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that Sshadow's constant mention of 111 divebombing and realism in the same sentence is laughable. 

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

 

 

And yes, an F-15 unguided bomb can hit a 10m building from 5,000'. 

CCRP and/or DTOS with Mk84 or 82s. Mark point via hud and DED, set GM or GMT mode, then DBS1 or DBS2, make FCR the SOI. I can shack a 30ft horizontal target from 15,000msl. For extra sparkle, rel pulse 2, rel salvo 2.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TXSailor_1]

You set a timed fuse and problem solved.  You can even watch the fuses spinning on the tips of the bombs.

 

Standard practice for the VVS bombs in WW2 was a 5 second fuse for drops below 100m.

 

And PS, our Super Tucanos in Colombia drop from that low all the time, seen it myself.

 

A modern super tucano and an He-111 are not the same bird. I would like to see a source for routine 25m drops in an He-111.

 

Low-level drops like that in the iL-2 and Yaks have sources, but those same aircraft are also not bombsight aircraft. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by TXSailor

[7.GShAP/Silas]

This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that Sshadow's constant mention of 111 divebombing and realism in the same sentence is laughable. 

 

 

Ahaha, oops, didn't notice he meant an HE-111.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

The Tucano is quite sexy. It's like a baby OV10.

[TXSailor_1]

Ahaha, oops, didn't notice he meant an HE-111.

 

That being said, a 25m pickle sounds pretty damned sporty lol. 

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

That being said, a 25m pickle sounds pretty damned sporty lol.

 

Even -82 Snake Eyes at 100ft would make me worry.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Got to see such drops live during a Brazilian Air Force live fire exercise, standard Mk 82s with (IIRC) a four second delay from both F-5E and A-1. Nice sight for sure, though some shrapnel almost hit a few guests.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Ahh 5 second fuse..

[1./KG4_OldJames]

This:

LOL. Okay, first off, if you're bombing from <25m, shut up about being realistic. Were this REALISTIC, you would be getting fragged by your own bomb. See, without para-bombs, there are minimum drop altitudes for bombs... If you''ve NEVER released above 200m, you're gaming the system MORE than your complaint about level bombing accuracy. You have lost all credibility in the argument. Good day sir.

 

And yes, an F-15 unguided bomb can hit a 10m building from 5,000'. 

 

 

 

 

 

On the Auto-level issue, that's a game necessity. In real life, the pilot and bombardier were two different people. The pilot could actively hold the aircraft level while the bombardier did his thing. In the game, we can't separate the positions, so the auto-level is a necessary evil.

...is almost, word for word what I was going to say.

[E69_geramos109]

i would like to see the 50 kg bombs sprayed and not exploding on a perfect line from 5000m. On 1946 that was well made i think.

 

Now to use 50kg bombs is useless on a level bombing yo can not cover any area

Edited August 15, 2017 by E69_geramos109

[Sokol1]

 

 

Communication Lag between Bomber Gunner and Pilot.

 

Issue in Pe-2 but not in He 111/Ju 88 due the Patin-Kurssteuerung autopilot.

 

 

 

NO AUTOLEVEL ! German bombers like the 111 do have an autopilot but it's only linked to the rudder to keep a constant heading. The level flight is only achieved through proper trimming, and can easily be thrown of with each course alteration during the bomb run (this also affecting speed as a side effect).

 

Patin-Kurssteuerung in level bombing mode control flight trough rudder, elevator and ailerons. Bombardier can do side corrections trough rudder servo motor.

[curiousGamblerr]

Got to see such drops live during a Brazilian Air Force ... some shrapnel almost hit a few guests.

 

Ha classic Brazil right there.

[Retnek]

 

Patin-Kurssteuerung in level bombing mode control flight trough rudder, elevator and ailerons. Bombardier can do side corrections trough rudder servo motor.

Luftwaffe had quite a few flight steering devices, afaik most abundant was the Siemens Kurssteuerung K4ü just steering the rudder. The pilot still had to control the elevators and the ailerons. 3-axis-steerings were not commonly build into standard bombers like He 111 or Ju 88.

 

See http://www.cdvandt.org/Siemens-LGW%20Ber%207.pdf for a survey of autopilots / Kurssteuerungen. Some autopilot-devices build by the company Patin f.e. were build up modular, so the avionics of the plane could be upgraded depending on it's combat roles.

Edited August 17, 2017 by 216th_Retnek

[Yogiflight]

 

 

just steering the rudder. The pilot still had to control the elevators and the ailerons.

This is, what I read in the user manual of the Lotfe 7C, too. The bombardier was steering the aircraft with rudder, while the pilot's job was to hold it horizontally with elevator and ailerons.

[GridiroN]

I don't have this problem. If anything I have the opposite problem: I am always puzzled how my correct calculations ended up putting the bombs in the residential district instead of the factory target...

[Monostripezebra]

This is a bit of a bogus discussion..

Yes, under certain conditions, the bombsight can be very precise... more precise then maybe historical counterparts were. But also our targets are very different from the endless complexity of the real world and are small 0 and 1 state buildings.. in the real world, hitting within the aifield perimeter ment an effect while in game hitting some revetments (that don´t count as target and go up in flames for exactly 0 points/hits) or the runway has absolutly 0 effect. Yet blast waves against clustered targets are overly effective in game and the best is in game to use the single biggest bomb, a method that contrasts to the many bombs that where used for effectivty reasons in real life

 

A game never is the reality, so the bombing is different too. Adding RNG to skill based game can easily backfire and hardly any fighter player asks for RNG-dispersion added to the guns to simulate more complex wind and nerve situations that likely contributed to lesser hit rates in reality when compared to games. In games a non-survival oriented "most damage per time" action is a winning strategy, by default, while in reality it is not. Adding RNG to the least played and (speaking in winning and points mode) least rewarded game mode of climbing a slow ship to altitude, making formations and a good fun reality oriented game play mode is just punishing a minority that actually makes fun events for the opposing fighters firstly only possible at all. Not much sense in that....

 

And then some people here talk complete nonsense withhout ever having really tried. As TIP has rightly said, on complex game servers with no GPS, differing wind conditions and pressure to keep plane and pilot alive you will not all the time be able to keep up a continuos precision bombing that you can achieve in QMB or certain servers under ideal conditions.

 

I definatly know how to work the bombsight.. since RoF and on complex servers, I almost miss more then I hit.. so when Mr.Shadow claims he hits all from 8000m but never has even flown 20 missions that way.. you know it is outright not factual. Look up good players bomber stats on TAW, they are a lot closer to the real thing then the fighter scores ;=)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2z2oXjwjy4

[Gambit21]

I don't have this problem. If anything I have the opposite problem: I am always puzzled how my correct calculations ended up putting the bombs in the residential district instead of the factory target...

 

You and me both.

I'm going to make a skin naming my He-111 "Oopsie!"

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Us folks who hit the neighbouring village are a step ahead of the rest. Where do you think the enemy is taking his afternoon nap, or enjoying a warm cup of tea?

[Gambit21]

Us folks who hit the neighbouring village are a step ahead of the rest. Where do you think the enemy is taking his afternoon nap, or enjoying a warm cup of tea?

 

...or getting some other needs met.

There's a mood killer.

 

"Mood Killer"....that will be the name of my other bomber.

[LLv24_Zami]

Looking forward for your bomber campaign Gambit, looks like the skins will be interesting.

[Gambit21]

Skin comments were a joke - although I'll likely create a custom skin or two for it.

[LLv24_Zami]

Skin comments were a joke 

I know 

[Sokol1]

In matter of level bombing Team Daidalos set the bar high - CloD just add unfinished/with errors 3D bombsight's for 1946 basic operation.

 

 

[Royal_Flight]

Monostripezebra, was that a custom skin on the DH.4 in the video?

 

If so it might be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.