do we need autobalancing?

[Alexmarine]

That's one of the reasons I always wanted to see a Malta expansion. A massive imbalance of 109's trolling for easy kills over British airfields would have at least appeared somewhat realistic there.

At this point I vote for a Germany 1945 for the inverted scenario

[curiousGamblerr]

At this point I vote for a Germany 1945 for the inverted scenario

Ooooh I can see it now! "Battle of Berlin" - plane set includes no German aircraft.

 

Edit: the other poster inspired me: plane set includes no German aircraft except an Me 262 with one engine (shortages!) and a Komet that's already on fire when you spawn.

Edited July 31, 2017 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

At this point I vote for a Germany 1945 for the inverted scenario

We would end up with some sort of alternate history scenario where the Germans won air superiority and swarms of Me262's menace the hopelessly outnumbered allied air forces.

Edited July 31, 2017 by hrafnkolbrandr

[deleted@31403]

Continue to fly the loads of German aircraft that they already have?

 

 

 

The idea is to include other pilots who prefer other aircraft/theaters....like the PTO for instance.

Many of whom no doubt have been holding off on purchase because they have no interest in the Eastern Front.

Or others like me have great interest in the Pacific decide to help support now and learn other planes. This is also a win for those that fly now and with no interest in the Pacific.

[Gambit21]

Or others like me have great interest in the Pacific decide to help support now and learn other planes. This is also a win for those that fly now and with no interest in the Pacific.

 

Yep...I fall into that category to some degree.

Although I do have some interest in the Eastern Front.

 

I'm genuinely interested in Kuban.

If it had been another Eastern Front map then I'd still have made the purchase, but it would have been purely to support getting me the hell out of Russia.

As it stands, I'm genuinely looking forward to Kuban, even if my interest in PTO still dwarfs it when all is said and done.

[Dave]

 

 

There is no such thing as lack of flexibility among german only users.

LOL. Did you read that before posting? 

[Dave]

 

 

We will see the same thing happen in the Pacific, just like we did when Pacific Fighters was introduced.   The Japanese were almost always outnumbered on multiplayer servers, and the vast majority of "JG" flew the faster, better, US aircraft.   It's all about points, and in the artificial constraints of a video game, the German planes are the best at racking up points, and in the Pacific the Allied aircraft are once you get past 1942.

And this is one part of any Pacific expansion that I am really not looking forward to. I feel as though, after 4 years of flying on the handicapped side, I have "done my service" and when the Allied side finally gets a break I won't be able to benefit as I will again feel obliged to fly for the outnumbered.

 

I wonder if the same people who chant "realism" when defending imbalance now will abandon realism and change factions mid-war when the tide turns against them.

Actually ... no I don't. 

[Ribbon]

Dont you worry, as always SYN will fly the "underdog" in MP...so you will have us most probably flying Zeros (if added)

 

Been waiting for the pacific from this team since first tried RoF and I know more SYN guys feel like that.

True!

I was flying LW all the time until i joined friends which are Syndicate and EAF members, they fly underdog side most of the time and always allies side in RoF. They hooked me on RoF and russian planes in il2-box.

Now when spit is here and Kuban on the way and as soon summer is gone i hope they will fly BoX more frequent.

[Retrofly]

Allied numbers would maybe be higher if the Spitfire was included in more maps. Defiantly heard people asking if the Spit is available on TS before joining.

 

I think the problem of imbalance is it creates a snowball effect. As the numbers get more imbalanced more and more people will give up on the smaller side, getting swarmed as you leave an airfield sucks.

 

I can see why people fly Axis, the 109 is defiantly one of the best planes in the game, especially for new people. I think I've put double the amount of time into Allied planes than Axis, yet for me flying the 109 is far easier than a Lagg or a Yak. Maybe as I get more experience I'll be able to get better, but right now Allies = hard mode for me.

[Dave]

from the WoL website:    

 

 

The glaring flaw in these statistics is that they aren't weighted by time and so are misrepresentative of the experience in-game at a given point in time.

What I have observed in many cases where the balance is way out, is that the side with much lower player count (when it occurs this is typically the VVS) experiences high churn throughout the round.

This means that while there may be, say 40 players who fly VVS over the course of the round, at any given time there are much fewer (eg 12) with many getting fed up with the odds and leaving after a short period of time. Players arrive, try to address the imbalance, get fed up, leave. So I am regularly surprised to find at the end of a round that the server reports that there were more-or-less even teams (if you simply add up the number who played for a side at any time during the round). These are the numbers from which the statistics on IL2stats are generated it seems.

 

The teams aren't always so unbalanced as to detract from the game, but it is a persistent trend and often manifests in extremis.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Dave

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Ooooh I can see it now! "Battle of Berlin" - plane set includes no German aircraft.

Edit: the other poster inspired me: plane set includes no German aircraft except an Me 262 with one engine (shortages!) and a Komet that's already on fire when you spawn.

Spewed coffee!

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

So why does German side defend against any suggestion for auto balance, has gameplay nothing to do with why they are here? only win?

 

-snip-

 

 

Blue loses matches.

 

I still don't understand the hard-on, circlejerk stances against squadrons and people flying what they want to fly.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I flew red for all of July. Even when I didn't want to. Come August I'll go blue, it's my turn.

 

Or I'll spend more time on Random Expert, it's growing on me.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

What does that mean please?

 

There's 6 pages of self-evidence. I'm good, thanks.

[Aap]

It is interesting that this thread gets no modding despite the toxic atmosphere between posters, while another thread got locked entirely (not just modded), just because people where discussing "what if" scenarios of fighter development and German choices during WWII.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

Looks like a rather silly set of words to say. I'd reply to your question if I thought you were interested in using real words; but I figure you're not.

 

Rather silly? Alright.

 

If I need to explain the meaning of what I said to you when there is 6 pages of "everybody should play for my enjoyment" you're correct that I have no interest (nor is there a point) in mincing words.

 

For the record, I didn't ask any questions anyway so no need to respond. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[von-Luck]

I still feel if the month long scoring system could be capable of separating axis from allied flights and treated them as two separate instances you would remove a significant contributing factor for players being unwilling to swap freely. Look at the top scoring players and they fly for one side only - there is a reason for that. Past removing obstacles to this I believe it should be a player culture issue and addressed through efforts to change this culture.

 

von Luck

Edited July 31, 2017 by von-Luck

[SCG_Neun]

If the reason the online servers are not populated is because of the disparity in the servers then autobalance them.  But I don't think that is the reason. It's just a fact that a combat flight simulation is going to be used by air force enthusiast who have a personal interest in a particular air force.  It would appear that within a historical mission objective combat server these numbers far out distance the numbers of guys that really don't care and just want to experience all the planes with no real interest in the underlying organizational aspect of the units that flew the aircraft.  I mean that must be the case, or the guys that don't care would all be flying VVS and we wouldn't have a problem.  I'm not speaking about WoL...here.

 

Squads that are built around a particular planeset don't want to randomly be forced to cross over into aircraft that do not hold any immersion for them and their particular interest. . If you force them, maybe it could work, but I seriously doubt it. A great many of them will just go to another sim or build their own mission campaigns and fly them.  What has the community lost if that happens?  Not sure, but I personally believe that  the numbers interested in the hard core servers would go way down.  So yes, maybe you would balance...but I believe your player count would be way down overall.  

 

 

I polled our guys in an effort to see what direction our unit should take in the future and it was evident that most of the players that signup for our unit have a historical interest specifically in the Luftwaffe.  And if we fly Pacific most of them will probably have an interest in forming up in US aircraft and yes, we won't be jumping in any Zeros, for the most part.  Our simulation will be built around a Corsair or a Wildcat and the deck of the Essex, etc....

 

So don't be too hard on us for enjoying a combat flight simulation like this......It seems to be fairly popular among a lot of us.

Edited July 31, 2017 by 4./JG52_Neun

[Aap]

And again, there could be an easy and effective technical solution that would not force anyone to fly what they don't like, would not put blame on anyone and sould still make sure that gameplay was balanced.

 

Another, also previously proposed solution, was using AI to balance things. That also met fierce resistance from people that were not capable of understanding the consept, had no solution of their own to propose, but that did not stop them running their mouth about it.

Edited July 31, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[curiousGamblerr]

I, for one, like any idea that hurts the team with more players and helps the team with fewer players, in order to incentivize balance. Whether it's limited fuel supply or less points or whatever, all of those solutions are better than direct auto balancing.

 

Also, I find the argument "don't be hard on us for being selfish, seems like being selfish is popular" to be pretty funny (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting directly of course, but that's what I hear when I read that).

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Kemp, most mission designers aren't opposed to adding AI but they really hurt FPS, which is why it isn't used often.

[Lusekofte]

Well fighting AI is not why people fly multiplayer either. But the fact remain if everybody fly German planes there is no game play , witch is a bad thing. Flying what they like is not really a solution. 

Like my squad, if we did we would add 4 to 7 more to the unbalance. And we feel it is pretty boring. And no matter how you put it, it is a selfish and egoistical attitude I really do not care for

Edited July 31, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

I, for one, like any idea that hurts the team with more players and helps the team with fewer players, in order to incentivize balance. Whether it's limited fuel supply or less points or whatever, all of those solutions are better than direct auto balancing.

 

What he said.

[Sunde]

I, for one, like any idea that hurts the team with more players and helps the team with fewer players, in order to incentivize balance. Whether it's limited fuel supply or less points or whatever, all of those solutions are better than direct auto balancing.

 

Also, I find the argument "don't be hard on us for being selfish, seems like being selfish is popular" to be pretty funny (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting directly of course, but that's what I hear when I read that).

And what i hear when i read this, is that people are being selfish, because they play how they want, and not how you want them to. 

Strange huh?

I am by the way strongly in favour of a system that "hurts" the more crowded side, limited fuel or something similar would imho be interesting to see in action. 

[curiousGamblerr]

And what i hear when i read this, is that people are being selfish, because they play how they want, and not how you want them to. 

Strange huh?

I am by the way strongly in favour of a system that "hurts" the more crowded side, limited fuel or something similar would imho be interesting to see in action. 

 

I mean, you're not wrong. I got into this in my longer post on the topic many pages ago: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/30268-do-we-need-autobalancing/?p=493258

 

tl;dr - There are two perfectly valid, but conflicting ideals here, so I understand why we're having this conversation. It's just pretty obvious to me which of those two conflicting ideals is more important 

[StickMan]

I find myself flying Soviets simply for the fact that if your alone it's a much better team play experience.

 

The German side seems to attract the newer players. Some of these guys tend to have War Thunder mentality and manners. Which is get kill at all costs. Ignore objective to get kill. Shoulder shoot when required to get kill. Forget shoulder shooting and just shoot through friendly to get kill. So playing Germans alone seems to be a hit or miss experience for me anyway.

 

I do wish the sides were more balanced but freedom to choose is nice too. So it's hard for me to say.

[Ropalcz]

I, for one, like any idea that hurts the team with more players and helps the team with fewer players, in order to incentivize balance. Whether it's limited fuel supply or less points or whatever, all of those solutions are better than direct auto balancing.

 

 

+1  

 

Red Orchestra 2 has good ballance features - the difference can be only two people. You have also increased spawn time delay if your team has more players.

 

But there is one problem - in RO2 and other FPS titles, all weapons are used the same way (you just aim and shoot, doesn´t matter if you have Kar or SVT) - the difference in plane control (mix, prop pitch etc.) will totally ruin that player´s session, if he can´t controll that plane. This could be fixed easily - add some flying tutorial so new people can hop in more easily 

[Feathered_IV]

No kills recorded for the side with more than a 5x aircraft imbalance would fix everything. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

No kills recorded for the side with more than a 5x aircraft imbalance would fix everything.

Almost certainly!

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

+1  

 

Red Orchestra 2 has good ballance features - the difference can be only two people. You have also increased spawn time delay if your team has more players.

 

But there is one problem - in RO2 and other FPS titles, all weapons are used the same way (you just aim and shoot, doesn´t matter if you have Kar or SVT) - the difference in plane control (mix, prop pitch etc.) will totally ruin that player´s session, if he can´t controll that plane. This could be fixed easily - add some flying tutorial so new people can hop in more easily 

 

Lets be real here. This isn't a study sim, these aircraft that people talk about not knowing how to fly can be flown with ten minutes of youtube videos and another 20 in quick mission. It's not rocket science. Hell, even on expert difficulty the game tells you when you're in boost mode or if your engine is overheating. If an aircraft is too difficult for someone to fly in this they should probably go back to WT as they've got bigger things to worry about. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Y-29.Sulaco

[Ropalcz]

Lets be real here. This isn't a study sim, these aircraft that people talk about not knowing how to fly can be flown with ten minutes of youtube videos and another 20 in quick mission. It's not rocket science. Hell, even on expert difficulty the game tells you when you're in boost mode or if your engine is overheating. If an aircraft is too difficult for someone to fly in this they should probably go back to WT as they've got bigger things to worry about.

 

I know.

[J2_Trupobaw]

No kills recorded for the side with more than a 5x aircraft imbalance would fix everything. 

 

Holy Schadenfreude mit Brilanten, Schwerten und Enichlaub, Batman! Sounds a bit too harsh, but... whom am I kidding, this could work.

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

No kills recorded for the side with more than a 5x aircraft imbalance would fix everything.

Agreed.

[BM357_TinMan]

No kills recorded for the side with more than a 5x aircraft imbalance would fix everything. 

Actually a pretty good idea.  However, the whole penalty for switching sides thing would have to be resolved in order for this to work.

[19//Moach]

Actually a pretty good idea.  However, the whole penalty for switching sides thing would have to be resolved in order for this to work.

 

 

yes, that penalty nonsense is one of the worst "misfeatures" I've ever come across in gaming... it definitely has got to go

 

 

Misfeature, /ˌmɪsˈfiːtʃə/  Noun:  An intentionally developed feature which by result or consequence becomes indistinguishable from a bug

Edited August 2, 2017 by 19//Moach

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It's server-based, talk to the owners of big servers and try to discourage them from using it.

[GridiroN]

I've been flying a lot of Russia lately and whilst I'll agree that flying on 1941 maps are brutal, 1942 and 3 maps aren't that bad if balance of the teams aren't even.

Everyone focuses on the number and no one focuses on who's flying. Put Elanski, Rambo and =PU=Drinkins on a team even without comms and they'll still win vs a German team with twice their number.

Whilst I have played at times when balance was as severe as 27 vs 9, most of the 109 pilot's are newer or low skilled and just serve to pad the stats of superior pilots.

Edited August 3, 2017 by GridiroN

[wtornado]

Do we need autobalancing = NO.

 

If you are flying on the Russian side and out numbered dont go and pick a fight against 2-3 players. Selected a fight that you can win and fly home and land safely.

 

Spot them before thay spot you.

Just fly German.

 

Stop flying WOL if you feel like a little girl. Its just a [edited] game.

Just fly German.

 

That's a mature, helpful, and very constructive suggestion you have given there. You sir, have in your own little way, made this forum and the world a better place.

 

Just fly German.

The ratio in November was 4.5 Soviet fighters per German fighter across the Stalingrad front, but Germans usually had local air superiority by concentrating their efforts while the Soviet Air Forces preferred small groups until a fighter tactics convention in 1943 proposed changes to that ("let's stop poking them with separate fingers and hit them with a full fist instead", quoting). Right now you have the opposite, concentrated groups of Soviet aircraft squaring off against lone wolves or pairs mostly.

Just fly German

 

I find myself flying Soviets simply for the fact that if your alone it's a much better team play experience.

 

The German side seems to attract the newer players. Some of these guys tend to have War Thunder mentality and manners. Which is get kill at all costs. Ignore objective to get kill. Shoulder shoot when required to get kill. Forget shoulder shooting and just shoot through friendly to get kill. So playing Germans alone seems to be a hit or miss experience for me anyway.

 

I do wish the sides were more balanced but freedom to choose is nice too. So it's hard for me to say.

In a HE-111 there are so many crazy 109's around that you are safe flying to target and back.All good in a LW bomber.

 

Everyone flying German all the time non stop always will bring a change to a server.

 

It did in the old 1946 game with the Bf-109 G-6 binge flying back then

[=SqSq=Sulaco]

Just fly German.

 

Just fly German.

 

 

Just fly German.

Just fly German

 

In a HE-111 there are so many crazy 109's around that you are safe flying to target and back.All good in a LW bomber.

 

Everyone flying German all the time non stop always will bring a change to a server.

 

It did in the old 1946 game with the Bf-109 G-6 binge flying back then

 

Not a bad idea actually. I'm 100% for this. Instead of talk we should take action, all of us worried about balance should stop trying to pickup the slack and help stack the German teams instead. With no one flying Red, the server owners along with the devs will have to take notice of the problem.

 

Count me in. Anyone else?

[Feathered_IV]

Not a bad idea actually. I'm 100% for this. Instead of talk we should take action, all of us worried about balance should stop trying to pickup the slack and help stack the German teams instead. With no one flying Red, the server owners along with the devs will have to take notice of the problem.

 

Count me in. Anyone else?

That makes sense. The mission designers of the three biggest servers have a very flawed idea of what makes for good gameplay and spend most of their efforts trying to punish and herd their players.