do we need autobalancing?

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Don't forget how satisfying mineshell strikes look.

[Feathered_IV]

It's such a shame that the Nazi's most enduring legacy will probably be their fetching summer fashions and big boys toys. 

[sergio_]

Its simple why more ppl fly german side.

I will say the taboo.

German weapons of ww2 are liked by more ppl than those of soviet. German war machine simply has more popular image.

Also, 109 and 190 are just more wanted planes than vvs fighters.

US and JP planes also look fearsome. Liked by many.

Vvs? General population just doesnt know them, hasnt seen them, hasnt heard of them. Lagg? Isnt that a term to describe internet connection delay?

A very simple fact but it is interesting how ppl pocket out cute excuses. 109 and 190 are just better looking war machines with LF image.

Vvs? Hm...

That's simply the case for me.

 

Before I got a bit deeper into this sim, when I thought of WW2 planes, in my head there were Spitfires vs 109s. In IL-2 that means by default it's just the Germans that I felt more like flying what was in my head.

 

But wait, there's also a P-40 and a Spitfire that balance the Soviet side for me a bit. One of them 'seems' weaker and the other is still too expensive to get if you only want the plane.

 

Personally I have these both, but I mean that, by default, it's the German planes that I, who I think may be a typical example of newcomer to this WW2 sim, feels like flying. To me, Soviet planes have been only the discovery.

 

As I get to know better the planes and the history in which they developed, I will eventually get into the Soviet ones.

 

I'm not ashamed to say I'm not a history expert and only the battle of Britain was famous for me. No wonder to me Soviet planes simply didn't exist.

 

This sim has widened my scope and I'm certainly adding battles of Moscow and Stalingrad to my history baggage (thank this sim was created).

 

Am I an exception? Everyone feels the same attachment to German and Soviet planes? I can't say, but to me that's the reason behind this thread's topic.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Sergi0

[sinned]

You are not an exception. Its just a taboo here to say it outright.

What tend to happen here is ppl gang up on you, giving you lectures about how great plane a c b are and have you as an "inferior"and a shameful ww2 simmer.

 

Just take a look at above fine example "It's such a shame that the Nazi's most enduring legacy will probably be their fetching summer fashions and big boys toys".

 

Amazing how nazi even comes to this topic.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It's funny how defensive people get if the word Nazi is even brought up.

 

The point I believe our well-versed Aussie friend is making is that, recently, when people think "Germany in WW2" they think of 'cool uniforms and aces', 'cool aircraft' and only then 'genocide/pillaging/racial supremacy/invading half of Europe for fun'.

[54th_Glitter_]

IMHO popular image may be just a little bit of the reason, but the main reason is overall they are the better planes, just that. 

 

If we had underperforming LF popular planes vs overperforming VVS "unknowed" planes, unbalance probably will turn around to favour VVS. As example inside VVS side: just think about P40, a very popular mystique and expected plane, but when red pilots realised this plane was worst than expected in the sim, is a rarely flyed one, and pilots prefer to fly the rest of "unknowed" ones.

 

The popular image or mystique of a plane is a fast passing love that last few flights if it's not accompanied by performing. IMO Perform>popular image, and weighs more when people choose their usual ride.

 

And in this case popular and better permorfers are in the same side, it makes more difficult the unbalance issue. I hope it will solve with the addition of Spitfire and P39.

[sinned]

recently, when people think "Germany in WW2" they think of 'cool uniforms and aces', 'cool aircraft' and only then 'genocide/pillaging/racial supremacy/invading half of Europe for fun'.

Another fantastic example of some community members brandishing when you express favoritism on German weaponeries over vvs.

[sinned]

IMHO popular image may be just a little bit of the reason, but the main reason is overall they are the better planes, just that.

 

If we had underperforming LF popular planes vs overperforming VVS "unknowed" planes, unbalance probably will turn around to favour VVS. As example inside VVS side: just think about P40, a very popular mystique and expected plane, but when red pilots realised this plane was worst than expected in the sim, is a rarely flyed one, and pilots prefer to fly the rest of "unknowed" ones.

 

The popular image or mystique of a plane is a fast passing love that last few flights if it's not accompanied by performing. IMO Perform>popular image, and weighs more when people choose their usual ride.

 

And in this case popular and better permorfers are in the same side, it makes more difficult the unbalance issue. I hope it will solve with the addition of Spitfire and P39.

Yes to a certain degree. P40 and fw190(pre update) are good examples of ppl not flying under performing planes.

 

Thay said, its still more on the image and what plane ppl like.

When 109 and 190 fm were not meeting performance expectations, they just quit BOS all together. They didnt go to vvs. They just quit and announced all over youtube.

 

Vvs planes are simply not as popular nor liked to the general public.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Another fantastic example of some community members brandishing when you express favoritism on German weaponeries over vvs.

 

It's actually something I've observed much more outside of simming circles than in them to be honest. The whole SS fashion aesthetics, depictions of aces as sweet romcom hunks (as opposed to tired, war-weary men who had the mentally tasking job of killing people to avoid being killed) and a dangerously innocent rehabilitation of the German armed forces ignoring the nuances of it is really common in circles frequented by a younger demographic. It's a radical reaction to the previous, equally radical and inaccurate 'if he's German, he's a genocidal Nazi' stance that also ignored the finer details of it. This isn't an attack on German weapons or their admirers, just an observation on a modern trend.

 

The gist of the thread is if or how a lack of flexibility among pilots who fly German aircraft in game, sometimes with personal reasons and sometimes without them, is creating a counter-productive multiplayer experience. The main question is, should people who only fly German be more open to occasionally take one for the team and fly Allied aircraft whenever the Blue to Red ratio goes over 2:1?

[sinned]

There is no such thing as lack of flexibility among german only users.

 

Everyone wants to ride on a prom queen.

 

Pls dont ask others to take out a non attractive girl in class to prom just because she has no date or "imbalance" or "she has great characters".

 

Take her out yourself.

"It's actually something I've observed much more outside of simming circles than in them to be honest"

 

If you have an observation actually outside of simming circles, then dont bring it here.

[BlitzPig_EL]

We will see the same thing happen in the Pacific, just like we did when Pacific Fighters was introduced.

 

The Japanese were almost always outnumbered on multiplayer servers, and the vast majority of "JG" flew the faster, better, US aircraft.

 

It's all about points, and in the artificial constraints of a video game, the German planes are the best at racking up points, and in the Pacific the Allied aircraft are once you get past 1942.

 

Oh, and sinned, really man, grow up, your responses are those of a 14 year old with no experience in life, or living it.

 

As I said, it's all about the points.

Edited July 29, 2017 by BlitzPig_EL

[sinned]

"As I said, it's all about the points."

 

Its not all about points.

How then do you explain all those who just quit BOS entirely when german planes were underperforming to expectations? Why dont they simply switch to vvs?

 

Your answer - lack of flexibility.

Never admitting to lack of vvs popularity to the general pulic.

 

Hence, its a taboo to express favoritism to german fighters here.

 

Oh and Blitz, I have seen more wisdom and less pretence from 14 year olds than some community members who dwell here.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Ever played a game of street or five-a-side football in your life? You could learn from it.

 

1) You don't quit playing just because the best guy in your team left

2) If one team has 2 more players than the opponent, one of them goes to the other team to balance them

3) If one team has 1 more player than the opponent, the best player in the pitch goes to the team at a numerical disadvantage to provide a fairer starting point.

 

When you're partaking at an amateur activity with no gains at stake, you put your preferences asides and prioritise sportsmanship. When everyone puts sportsmanship above individual preferences, everyone gets a better overall experience.

[54th_Glitter_]

 

Its not all about points.

How then do you explain all those who just quit BOS entirely when german planes were underperforming to expectations? Why dont they simply switch to vvs?

 

 

 

LF planes has never underperformed against VVS planes. This is why they dont switch to VVS and the origin of unbalance. I dont know any LF pilot quit playing the sim because of underperforming, i think is a wrong premise to be generalized. This argument would takes sense with VVS pilots, and is just the origin of the issue, ...but LF pilots is difficult to believe to me, Sinned.   Maybe some fellows correct me if i'm wrong about this.

 

As said before i think is simple like that, performance rules, and people likes to win.

The only way to solve this, autobalance apart, is the addition of new competitive planes to VVS to persuade pilots to fly them, as is happening with BOK.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Ever played a game of street or five-a-side football in your life? You could learn from it.

 

1) You don't quit playing just because the best guy in your team left

2) If one team has 2 more players than the opponent, one of them goes to the other team to balance them

3) If one team has 1 more player than the opponent, the best player in the pitch goes to the team at a numerical disadvantage to provide a fairer starting point.

 

When you're partaking at an amateur activity with no gains at stake, you put your preferences asides and prioritise sportsmanship. When everyone puts sportsmanship above individual preferences, everyone gets a better overall experience.

 

Unfortunately this mindset is sorely lacking in the current me, me, me, times. Whether its a product of a generation or two who have spent their time in isolation in front of computer screens and not participating in the social activities you describe or something completely different. Who knows. Maybe future generations will look back and wonder WTF or it's just going to get worse from here on out.

[-SF-Disarray]

There is no such thing as lack of flexibility among german only users.

 

Everyone wants to ride on a prom queen.

 

Pls dont ask others to take out a non attractive girl in class to prom just because she has no date or "imbalance" or "she has great characters".

 

Take her out yourself.

"It's actually something I've observed much more outside of simming circles than in them to be honest"

 

If you have an observation actually outside of simming circles, then dont bring it here.

 

I'm just going to throw out a wild ass guess and say you probably fly German planes in this game. I just get that vibe from you. Saying there is no inflexibility among the German ONLY cohort is absurd. They only fly one plane set, some times they only fly one plane within that plane set. That is the very definition of inflexibility. It seems to me that you don't want to acknowledge this fact. I am interested to know why you feel it is acceptable, or even a good thing, for a segment of the community to so imbalance the multiplayer aspect of the game in a way that many feel is to its determent. In all the threads on this topic I have yet to see a cogent argument for why this is OK. I have seen lots of excuse making. I've even seen moralizing from the German side about how their fictional representation in a fictional representation of a war fought more than 70 years ago is the moral side to play on, Communism being evil they say. But an explanation for why this is good conduct for the community? I've seen nothing.

[curiousGamblerr]

Unfortunately this mindset is sorely lacking in the current me, me, me, times. Whether its a product of a generation or two who have spent their time in isolation in front of computer screens and not participating in the social activities you describe or something completely different. Who knows. Maybe future generations will look back and wonder WTF or it's just going to get worse from here on out.

 

This is such a tired trope. If you look at the demographics of this forum, it's not a result of "a generation or two who have spent their time in isolation in front of computer screens" - if you want to find me, me, me attitudes, you'll have better luck looking at baby boomers than millennials.

 

Lucas hit the nail on the head.

Edited July 29, 2017 by 19//curiousGamblerr

[19//Moach]

ok... let me point at the elephant in the room - call it taboo all you want:   (or don't bother with it, as it is MY theory and not up for debate)

 

 

 

 

the MAIN reason ppl fly more german is: *drumroll*  -- there is a competitive advantage in it.  *rimshot* 

 

 

there main points to observe would be:

 

 - most VVS planes are rather "obscure" to the average western player. there is indeed a preference to the more widely known types

 

 - the well known P40 is a collector plane, and requires separate purchase -- despite it's attractive reputation, it is horribly misportrayed and underperforms in the game to a point where it is outclassed even against heavier types (110 and stuka) - the legendary spitfire is unavailable in most WoL maps (when it is available however, stacking tendencies are noticeably lessened and may even reverse)

 

 - many WoL missions have rather "strange" limits imposed on the more competitive VVS types, such as the YaK... so those willing to try out a plane they don't see in movies all the time are still somewhat hampered in this endeavor...  (that is not to say german planes aren't also often "creatively nerfed" in WoL)

 

 - it is a fact that the learning curve for VVS types is steeper than for german fighters, but it is not a critical factor, as russian designs are most often de-rated and quite difficult to break (at the expense of not developing their full potential power)

 

 - despite this tendency of russian planes, the more popular P40 is quite the contrary, and poses the steepest learning curve in the game - this is enough of a drawback as it is, yet even when mastered, the plane will still not deliver it's expected mediocre performance, and is widely regarded by players as "unfit for combat" in most situations

 

 

 - for the blue players, the popularity issue is much less, as the 109 is one of the most recognizable aircraft of all time.  the german fleet definitely has the "allure advantage" in most situations, even when facing the spitfire, the blue team still has a larger number of "mainstream" types. this is not a trivially dismissable factor

 

 - the bf109F series in this game is capable of maneuvers which vastly exceed its historical counterpart.  whereas the real plane traded maneuverability for its legendary speed (high wing loading) - this tradeoff is not present in the current state of the game, making it capable of turn-fighting with an advantage against most VVS types, while still retaining the capability of an energy fighter.  this makes it more feared by red pilots than the historically much more terrifying FW190

 

 - there is also a popular exploit with 109 fighters where the adjustable stabilizer can be operated very quickly at any speeds, and thus it can overcome the large historical limitation of the type that was its heavy control loads at medium/high speed - this plane has also been tested by players and revealed it has a critical AoA of ~25 degrees, whereas the real plane should have stalled at ~18 or so... this makes it virtually impervious to accelerated stalls, with obvious results in combat

 

this is my theory of just WHY ppl flock to the german side like they do.  I do not expect it to be a popular one (especially among the many vocal blue-lobbyists in these forums) - but I have a strong feeling that it will be proven correct once the revised FMs are deployed, and the capabilities of each sides fleet become closer to reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

besides this... there are also the other factors imposed by the multiplayer environment itself, being:

 

 - team anonymity:  players join sides discreetly, granting guilt-free entry to an overly stacked team as they arrive on the server.  not that they'd be scorned for it, but decisions like this are often affected by the player's own sense of how others perceive them (even when their notion of it is not necessarily true)

 

 - switch punishment:   players are very much discouraged from switching during a match, as the server imposes a harsh time penalty of several minutes on those who do - stats are also negatively affected by doing so, such that the decision to switch is really nothing short of true heroism.

 

 - lack of awareness:  there is no "alert" to the fact that teams are becoming unbalanced during the course of a match - one only realizes this by checking the scoreboard, and even then it is still not always obvious as the lists get clamped at the bottom of the screen.   stacking situations usually require somebody pointing it out. in which cases, they are often corrected within a few minutes

 

 - poor communication:   most players do not participate in communications at all while they play, often because of language barriers. those who become discouraged by a mismatch and choose to leave the server often do so in silence, giving no hint to others of the escalating disbalance they have yet increased by their leaving.

 

 

 

any of these factors should be addressed BEFORE forceful auto-balancing is considered.  else it'd be only acting upon the symptom, effectively making the game less enjoyable in the whole.

 

statistically, the german-only playerbase (albeit the second largest of the three), is still smaller than either-way crowd, and less than half the total sum of the red-only and either-way population - so there is no point in blaming strict-sided players for causing the problem.  there are plenty of others willing to switch or of contrary preferences to offset their own.  that argument is therefore mathematically disproved.

 

it can be reasoned thus, that balancing can (and should) be achieved with non-forceful adjustments alone, auto-balancing being a desperate, unnecessary last resort

Edited July 29, 2017 by 19//Moach

[Rolling_Thunder]

This is such a tired trope. If you look at the demographics of this forum, it's not a result of "a generation or two who have spent their time in isolation in front of computer screens" - if you want to find me, me, me attitudes, you'll have better luck looking at baby boomers than millennials.

 

Lucas hit the nail on the head.

 

if you look at the poster in favor of auto balance and look at those against auto balance then cross reference with the "how old are you" thread it's quite telling.

Also you'd be hard pressed to find many "baby boomers" who play this game.

[deleted@31403]

if you look at the poster in favor of auto balance and look at those against auto balance then cross reference with the "how old are you" thread it's quite telling.

Also you'd be hard pressed to find many "baby boomers" who play this game.

I am a 64 year old baby boomer.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I am a 64 year old baby boomer.

 

I did say "many". Incidentally, what's your opinion of auto balance? 

[BlitzPig_EL]

I am a 64 year old baby boomer.

 

I'm a year behind you sir.

[CUJO_1970]

Predictably, the virtue signaling, "evil JG hysteria" and political lectures have begun. It's just as sure as the sun coming up.

 

I fly only on a server that is auto-balanced (DED_Normal). Usually can't even join even when LW is outnumbered sometimes. I fly outnumbered on it plenty of times and VVS side has no problems with it whatsoever.

 

Oh - also - VVS side is infested with players who only fly red. I see it everytime I'm online and you can see on stats page only a small percentage of pilots fly for both sides. Most fly either blue or red. Good for them.

 

I fly LW all the time, I only fly FW-190 (I flew it for nearly a year online when it was demonstrably wrong FM) and what's more I'm not an ounce sorry for it, nor will I apologize to any of you crybabies for it.

[19//Moach]

from the WoL website:

 

 

 

 

the whole strict-sided-players-are-to-blame argument is mathematically unsound.  there are plenty of red-sided or both-ways players out there to offset the blue-sided ones

 

there is indeed a preference, but that is not enough to justify measures as tactless as autobalancing

 

 

in fact, I am almost certain that enforcing sides would cause any server who tries it to lose its popularity to another that doesn't

 

 

 

things that would work better:

 

 

 - display for all to read what side a player has joined when he enters the game -- this would have a psychological effect far greater than any actual pressure by the other players, as these decisions are heavily influenced by players own notion of how others perceive them.

 

 - alert others when a player leaves the server with a readout of the current team balance, such as "player <name>  exited; teams: xx:red / yy:blue"  - this way, players could realize teams are becoming lopsided early on, before the problem reaches a self-intensifying degree (players leaving or switching to the larger team)

 

 - encourage, rather than punish those who switch during a match - a minimal time delay (only to mitigate "spy switching") - and no score sanctions whatsoever

 

 - a more carefully considered plane lineup for missions.  many WoL missions have german-biased fleets, which makes for a frustrating experience on the red side.  this has to be acknowledged and corrected, or we could all try moving to another server

 

 - wait about a month... with the new FMs coming, I have a strong suspicion that at least one large reason for blue-heaviness will be removed.  afterwards, what reasons remain should be more easily manageable

Edited July 29, 2017 by 19//Moach

[deleted@31403]

I did say "many". Incidentally, what's your opinion of auto balance?

I wasn't emplying boomers are a majority but I know a lot that do and have military experience. Auto balance is great on games like Battlefield. But in aviation Sims it is difficult for some to know planes on both sides well. This is why maybe it would be difficult to force some who know not much of the other planes.

[Aap]

there is indeed a preference, but that is not enough to justify measures as tactless as autobalancing

 

Balancing logic is the most tactful solution really. Mission would just have set limits according to defined logic, would not call anybody a crybaby, luftie or anything else that you see here. Again, easiest and most effective solution, and does not initiate any blaming wars.

[19//Moach]

Balancing logic is the most tactful solution really. Mission would just have set limits according to defined logic, would not call anybody a crybaby, luftie or anything else that you see here. Again, easiest and most effective solution, and does not initiate any blaming wars.

 

I find it hard to accept the forceful imposition of a symptomatic correction as a more "tactful" solution than any which tries to understand and lessen the causes of that symptom.

 

it is actually, the very opposite of what I meant by "tactful" - it is really, very blunt

 

 

it would be effective, no doubt - but I would also expect it to be equally effective in ensuring the eventual replacement of any server that resorts to it by another that doesn't

 

 

it would be an interesting experiment though, just to observe how players react to being forced onto one team... but I would not count on it being accepted as "pleasant" in the grand scheme of things... it would probably cause more frustration than the problem it seeks to resolve.

 

in the end, it's very likely that ppl would resent the forced balancing more than they resent the stacking - especially so after a while, once time has dampened their memory of the issue

 

 

you cannot solve a problem by forcing people not to do it. you can make it stop happening that way, but it will not be actually solved.

 

it's like saying:  "doctor, it hurts when I move my arm", and being prescribed "don't move your arm"

 

 

 

one must then ask:  WHY do ppl stack german?  there must be something with the game or the design of these missions that makes them want to do that.

 

and blaming players for it is as pointless as denying that it does happen.

 

 

 

so, the real questions are:

 

 

why is it that ppl prefer to fly as german in WoL?

 

what can we do to even out that preference?

 

what other reasons contribute to team stacking?

 

how can we make those reasons go away?

 

 

 

forcing ppl to accept a choice that they would have made otherwise is completely against the nature of any activity that's done just for the sake of enjoying it (as in: a game)

that is why auto-balancing has to be a desperate "out of ideas" last-ditch alternative.  

 

instead, here we have ppl proposing that it's the first and only thing to try...  really, can't we think of NOTHING better?

Edited July 29, 2017 by 19//Moach

[Aap]

It is not blunt or forceful. A person can choose to play or not to play. Is it blunt or tactless, if WoL is full and you can't join, for example? With the balancing logic a player can choose to play for the weaker side or wait until someone leaves the stronger side or joins the weaker side, if he prefers only one side. Nothing tactless in that. Certainly easier than re-educating all the generations that game after baby-boomers or hoping to solve it by accusing people that have different opinions on how this game is supposed to be played.

What comes to causes and symptoms, if it is often raining in the area where you live, do you go to argue with your neighbor, what is the root cause of raining or do you build a roof to your house? This is the same situation, do you want to implement a working solution or pretend you are able to change the behavior of hundreds of random people that have no interest in changing?

Edited July 29, 2017 by II./JG77_Kemp

[Feathered_IV]

I was like, Oh Hi!  ...Is this a German-only server? 

 

[Rolling_Thunder]

The future of this franchise doesnt look too good reading this thread. There are no german aircraft in the upcoming pacific releases. What are the folk who refuse to fly anything but german aircraft going to do? Id be interested to know how many of those folk are planning on buying Midway. Are we kidding ourselves in thinking this franchise is going to run and run?

Edited July 30, 2017 by Rolling_Thunder

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

Don't sweat it, Pacific Fighters was a hit in the old Il-2. The armchair aces will go for American planes, take them to the stratosphere and dive just like they do now. Everyone else will vary a little, which should balance it out well.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Im no engine expert, not even an engine novice, but looking at the P40, will the american aircraft in midway suffer the same fate, with engine limitations? If so will folk do as they do with the P40 and just leave them in the hangar?

[SCG_Hobo]

Instead of autobalance, I think we can effectively create incentive to play russian, like collectable aircraft. Spitfire did wonders, A-20 will do wonders for Allied numbers. Maybe give them the first recon plane

[Rolling_Thunder]

Instead of autobalance, I think we can effectively create incentive to play russian, like collectable aircraft. Spitfire did wonders, A-20 will do wonders for Allied numbers. Maybe give them the first recon plane

 

And what incentive would it take for you to play Russian?

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

[Gambit21]

The future of this franchise doesnt look too good reading this thread. There are no german aircraft in the upcoming pacific releases. What are the folk who refuse to fly anything but german aircraft going to do?

 

Continue to fly the loads of German aircraft that they already have?

 

 

 

The idea is to include other pilots who prefer other aircraft/theaters....like the PTO for instance.

Many of whom no doubt have been holding off on purchase because they have no interest in the Eastern Front.

[Lusekofte]

I just wonder what is so fun flying alongside 54 other germans against 4 Russians. Personally I rather fly offline with those numbers. There is a 2% chance to shoot down a opponent in that setting. 

So why does German side defend against any suggestion for auto balance, has gameplay nothing to do with why they are here? only win? It beats me.

I simply do not understand why people want this

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Risk-aversion

[-SF-Disarray]

Risk-aversion? Sounds like the wrong game for that... What with the combat and all. Traditionally, combat has some risk inherent to it.

[Feathered_IV]

I just wonder what is so fun flying alongside 54 other germans against 4 Russians. Personally I rather fly offline with those numbers. There is a 2% chance to shoot down a opponent in that setting. 

So why does German side defend against any suggestion for auto balance, has gameplay nothing to do with why they are here? only win? It beats me.

I simply do not understand why people want this

That's one of the reasons I always wanted to see a Malta expansion. A massive imbalance of 109's trolling for easy kills over British airfields would have at least appeared somewhat realistic there.