do we need autobalancing?

[Gambit21]

You're free to enjoy CoOps, certainly. But it's easy enough to be mission oriented in multiplayer flying against other mission oriented humans. That's the only kind of gameplay I participate in, with TAW and RE.

Yep - I hear ya.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Make all aircraft available for both teams. Red and blue get axis and soviet aircraft.

.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Rolling_Thunder

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

Make all aircraft available for both teams. Red and blue get axis and soviet aircraft.

.

 

Christ on his throne NO! Next you'll be asking for 12,000 Silver Lions just to be able to spawn, and receive 2,000 as a reward for shooting down 5 airplanes in a single flight. *hint hint*

 

I surely hope you're joking. :lol:   

[Max_Damage]

The ratio in November was 4.5 Soviet fighters per German fighter across the Stalingrad front, but Germans usually had local air superiority by concentrating their efforts while the Soviet Air Forces preferred small groups until a fighter tactics convention in 1943 proposed changes to that ("let's stop poking them with separate fingers and hit them with a full fist instead", quoting). Right now you have the opposite, concentrated groups of Soviet aircraft squaring off against lone wolves or pairs mostly.

Thats just very untrue. The numbers were something like 1:1.5 in summer and autumn winter and then, only 50% of those planes were modern fighters because chaikas also count. This is reflected in memoirs and even in Ivan's war campaign lols. Where are you getting 4.5 from?

Edited July 26, 2017 by Max_Damage

[senseispcc]

If I did read this posts correctly the real problem here is "vultures"! The imbalance between one side and the other is normal and logical and often happens on a tactical level during air battles even if on the entire front the other side has more planes than the in "tactical" advantage, that is live and in a air battle we must live with it.

But "vulturing" is another phenomenon that games without the real world airfield defences do tend to achieve quiet fast. How to avoid this?

Easy like in the real world:

1/ Put a lot of AA or AAA on and around the airfield not a survivable position for the "vultures".

2/ Possibility to ask friendly air cover for the airfield. A lot of it! or Something automatic when enemy plane in the region.

3/ Wait until they go away! Normally they are fighters with only small fuel reserves. Then pounce them on their back routes.

4/ Do the same to them when they are in minority?!

5/ possibility 1/ and 2/...

[edited]

 

7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.

5. Moderators oversee the different sections of the forum and they have the right to edit and delete posts or close the entire topic without explanation.

 

Last/ Ask for the coop scenarios?!

Last time I see something like that coming from you.

 

​In all cases enjoy the game it is a game after all!   

Edited July 26, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

In November, by the beginning of Operation Uranus, the German contingent had roughly 330 serviceable aircraft, including 64 fighters. The Soviet Army had 1360 aircraft, including 519 fighters.

[Max_Damage]

In November, by the beginning of Operation Uranus, the German contingent had roughly 330 serviceable aircraft, including 64 fighters. The Soviet Army had 1360 aircraft, including 519 fighters.

In summer the german army was supported by 1200 aircraft only against 600 soviet planes though and only half of those were semi modern pe2, il2, yak1, lagg3. I know that during the battle the ratio changed because the germans suffered aircraft loss not only in the air but also on the ground and the soviets further reinforced their air. Winter saw relative soviet air superiority but summer and autumn saw total numerical and technical advantage for the germans.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Max_Damage

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

It's interesting, I'm trying to go through sources and they're conflicting. Do you know which German contingents were there from July onwards? I can see that Luftflotte 4 had 700 aircraft of all types while the 8th and 16th Air Armies had 680 fighters and bombers plus another 70 fighters from neighbouring air defence units, numbers from the third week of July. Then there are the November numbers posted earlier. Trying to find when did the tide fully turn in favour of the Soviet Air Force, I see that in the 434 IAP operational journals they mention a turning point around September where German aviation simply stopped sending aircraft in numbers to avoid losses, so instead they switched to lone pairs marauding airbases or making passes on bomber formations.

 

On the 50% modernity and lack thereof, it needs some context. Almost 100% of the long range bombers and night bombers were of obsolete types, but the figures were more favourable in attack and fighter regiments. Attack regiments lost most of their I-153s early on, and were replaced by Il-2s. Most If not all daylight bombers sent to the theatre were Pe-2s. Fighter units in Spring consisted of Yak-1, LaGG-3, MiG-3 and later models of I-16. Early La-5 variants, plus Yak-1, LaGG-3 and Yak-7 units fitted with the improved M-105PF, started arriving in summer to replace losses and reinforce units there. Two squadrons of P-40 also participated in the battle in Autumn, and despite inflicting losses they suffered too many themselves before being sent back to convert to newer models.

[Dave]

Again, if a server/mission set up a simple logic to keep the teams balanced, which has been explained in another thread already, we would not need to blame the community, Hartmanns, reds or blues - just the logic would take care of the issue without any emotions or blaming other players. Simple as that.

Can you please link to the thread you are referring to or just PM me. Thanks.

[OrLoK]

I know this isnt a popular opinion, but id prefer there to be a set number of slots with the empty ones being taken up by AI and they get replaced as players join.

 

My reasoning is that I almost exclusively play USSR and haven't the foggiest how the german planes function!

 

If I were put on their side, id be more of a hindrance than a help

[FTC_Riksen]

If I did read this posts correctly the real problem here is "vultures"! The imbalance between one side and the other is normal and logical and often happens on a tactical level during air battles even if on the entire front the other side has more planes than the in "tactical" advantage, that is live and in a air battle we must live with it.[/size]

But "vulturing" is another phenomenon that games without the real world airfield defences do tend to achieve quiet fast. How to avoid this?[/size]

Easy like in the real world:[/size]

1/ Put a lot of AA or AAA on and around the airfield not a survivable position for the "vultures".[/size]

2/ Possibility to ask friendly air cover for the airfield. A lot of it! or Something automatic when enemy plane in the region.[/size]

3/ Wait until they go away! Normally they are fighters with only small fuel reserves. Then pounce them on their back routes.[/size]

4/ Do the same to them when they are in minority?![/size]

5/ possibility 1/ and 2/...[/size]

[edited]

Last/ Ask for the coop scenarios?!

 

​In all cases enjoy the game it is a game after all! 

Calling people who fly for the German side Nazi supporters is certainly not the way to go either.

Edited July 26, 2017 by SYN_Haashashin

[The-Mysteron]

Wow ! point no6 really ?

[Lusekofte]

 

 

Wow ! point no6 really ?

 

The man who said that should be banned for a month, it is a insult against 10 thousands maybe millions of aviation interested  people all over the world, keep the ideology out of the sim genre. Preference and interest is the case here nothing more

[Aap]

Can you please link to the thread you are referring to or just PM me. Thanks.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29516-unbalanced-servers/page-2

[Aap]

[TWB]Pand is tracking these stats, so it is easy to check the actual numbers. Don't you find it weird though that others are "exaggerating" the problem in several threads, while you alone know how things really are?

[BlueJayslivernyc]

Anyone who is really that fed-up with an imbalance issue on multilayer can do what I do, just play single player. 

 

They just released "Blazing Steppe" that will keep you busy for a while.  Besides getting shotdown in 5 minutes every time is no fun anyway!

[BM357_TinMan]

I have complained, and been called down for it, that the biggest problem with this game, in terms of sales is, the lack of western planes and theaters.  That made three Soviet maps and, while they did an excellent job with them, it is obvious that people do not really want this.

Yes, there is a vocal contingent here who claim they just LOVE the Eastern front and this is probably true but, sales and server imbalance seem to indicate to me that most people have little to no interest in flying for the Soviet Union.  Sorry.

This forum is, by and large, an echo chamber where mostly the same people post over and over again and I think the larger wants, likes, dislikes and opinion of people who would play or buy this game are not given much voice.

I have tried flying for the Soviets and, tell me, has the tail wheel in the MiG 3 been fixed yet (forgive me if it has, I haven't flown for awhile)?  This is an issue

[7.GShAP/Silas]

I'm sorry I don't just blindly accept your cause and effect claim, 19//Moach is the only guy that went the right direction in this entire discussion but even his post is far from a real appraisal. How objectively bad is this? When does it happen throughout the day, how long does it last when it happens, what are the team ratios, what are the total player counts? A WoL admin could easily get this over the course of a week, day by day, hour by hour. My impression stands this is being exaggerated; I'd like to trust you and your experience but I know nothing about you. 

 

 

I'm familiar with this type of disbelieving attitude.  Unless it comes in the form of a peer-reviewed scientific journal, or maybe just from "Vice" you won't believe it.  I could go through my tracks and find some great shots of one or two IL-2's at 10 meters altitude being swarmed by the entire Luftwaffe fighter arm but it wouldn't matter.  Anyway, it can get pretty annoying, I don't know if autobalance is right or not.

 

 

Anyone who is really that fed-up with an imbalance issue on multilayer can do what I do, just play single player. 

 

They just released "Blazing Steppe" that will keep you busy for a while.  Besides getting shotdown in 5 minutes every time is no fun anyway!

 

 

I talk about this because I want it to be better and I want more people like you to want to dip your toes into multiplayer so I have more people to fly with and against.  I only enjoy mission-focused big-boy multiplayer,  and even now I mostly have a lot of fun flying with my group.

 

I have complained, and been called down for it, that the biggest problem with this game, in terms of sales is, the lack of western planes and theaters.  That made three Soviet maps and, while they did an excellent job with them, it is obvious that people do not really want this.

 

Yes, there is a vocal contingent here who claim they just LOVE the Eastern front and this is probably true but, sales and server imbalance seem to indicate to me that most people have little to no interest in flying for the Soviet Union.  Sorry.

 

This forum is, by and large, an echo chamber where mostly the same people post over and over again and I think the larger wants, likes, dislikes and opinion of people who would play or buy this game are not given much voice.

 

I have tried flying for the Soviets and, tell me, has the tail wheel in the MiG 3 been fixed yet (forgive me if it has, I haven't flown for awhile)?  This is an issue

 

 

You can speak for yourself and your desires, absolutely, but you can't speak for everybody else.  You don't think that in the english forum you might be getting a scewed perspective of the issue?  There are too many Americans and Anglos on this part of the forum to really get a clear picture, I think.  And even with that over-representation when a poll was taken for future theatres Kuban won by a large margin, didn't it? 

 

 

DCS panders to the fetish for P-51s and late-war spitfires, I don't see them being showered with riches.

 

But of course, I have absolutely zero interest in the western european theatre being added, so there's that.  As long as people actually fly Japanese, the pacific is just fine for me.

Edited July 26, 2017 by 7-GvShAP/Silas

[SYN_Haashashin]

As long as people actually fly Japanese, the pacific is just fine for me.

 

Dont you worry, as always SYN will fly the "underdog" in MP...so you will have us most probably flying Zeros (if added)   

 

Been waiting for the pacific from this team since first tried RoF and I know more SYN guys feel like that.

[Aap]

Again, if the server/mission has implemented a technical solution for balancing teams, we would not need to exchange any anecdotes, argue about if the inbalance exists or not, or expect people to change behaviour to please some other people. We would know that server is balanced, those that want to fly only Luftwaffe can do that, without being blamed for it, and people would not need to seek other games, because they find no joy in playing, when one side is badly outnumbered. It is both the easiest solution as well as most effective one for creating balance. Can't really see the negative sides of that solution.

[Gambit21]

Dont you worry, as always SYN will fly the "underdog" in MP...so you will have us most probably flying Zeros (if added)

 

Been waiting for the pacific from this team since first tried RoF and I know more SYN guys feel like that.

...and I'll be in formation with you.

Yamaha Kawasaki grows restless.

[BlitzPig_EL]

I know I'll be flying for the Emperor again as well.

 

Banzai!

[Gambit21]

We're going to have too much fun.

[Alexmarine]

Just remember to cover the type 99 and the type 97 while they attack the enemy fleet

[BlitzPig_EL]

I'll probably spend some time in the Val as well.

 

I always enjoyed it in IL246, and even had several good air to air fights in it as well.

[Lusekofte]

 

 

Dont you worry, as always SYN will fly the "underdog" in MP...so you will have us most probably flying Zeros (if added)   

 

I suspect that LW pilots will migrate to US side mostly, like in old IL 2 . That is if it is not late war pacific when some IJA fighters really got interesting.

For my sake there is some interesting Japanese lanes like Kate , Val and Betty, I am pretty sure those will be available together with the Zero. Without those 4 in Midway , then it is no Midway,

For me the unbalance is not that noticeable , in FNBF  we experienced more interest for VVS slots on last mission. And in Random expert the unbalance is about 1 to 1,5 on average. I do not understand why Luftwaffe pilots defend the unbalance and show no interest in correcting it, I cannot imagine it would not be more fun for them with more opponents. I have been in servers playing 24 against 3 at some odd hours. It should be of everyones interest to correct this. Not by force , but as a part of recruitment and information maybe

[-SF-Disarray]

"Simply cant" - Bold claim there, you think the reason for that is the team imbalance? When you get swarmed at an objective and the teams are somewhat balanced does the observation even get processed or is it just dismissed as something else? Lol

 

Then join the german side as ground attack, see if you have an easier time or see if you still get easily spotted and eliminated because maybe something else is wrong....

 

Tell me, how exactly dose this work? How is it that having 40 players on one side and, let's say, 15 on the other side not make it harder for the minority side to actively engage mission objectives? Ok, best case scenario you have 2 ground attackers, let's say IL-2s. That leaves us with exactly 13 fighters to cover the whole map. Now, lets continue on the best case and say that all 15 are in communication with one another in some form. You are still only going to get a hand full of fighters to cover those IL-2s, maybe 4 or 5. The remaining fighters would then be occupied with defending their targets from the bombing effort of the other team. On any given map on WOL you have about 5 targets to attack, some times more and some times less. Now lets cut 10 players out of the 40 to attack the ground targets. Now there are 30 fighters. Assuming the fighters are evenly distributed among the targets that is 5-6 fighters to for the cover fighters to deal with. Not insurmountable but not easy. Realistically, the fighter distro won't be be even, each team can see the spawn distribution of the other team. It is more likely that there will be concentrations of defenders over the most likely targets to be attacked. There could be 10 fighters covering that target, if those fighters are working in close coordination with one another the IL-2s and the cover element are dead. And with the numbers I started with it is a very real question if the attack element will even get to the target as this is when vulching tends to become more and more common.

 

That is the best case scenario. It is not a realistic one in my experience. Communication between players is often spotty. As a fighter I have often asked what the bombers are attacking to be answered with silence, or announce that I am covering a target area and it is clear for attack only to see no action by the bombers. As a bomber I have asked for cover at a target only to get no answer. Some times when help is asked for some is provided but it is often insufficient to allow for a successful, or even partially successful, attack. Is this all anecdotal? Yes it is. But when you see a common thread being spun via anecdote from various, unconnected, sources it seems foolish to discount them as untrue or exaggerated. Unless you are proposing that all of us are involved in some grand conspiracy to deprive people the opportunity to play for the team with more numbers. And damn us anyway for wanting fair play!

[DickDong]

Make all aircraft available for both teams. Red and blue get axis and soviet aircraft.

.

RT, you made me throw up a little. Edited July 27, 2017 by Banzaii

[Rolling_Thunder]

RT, you made me throw up a little.

I'm happy to hear that.

[J2_Trupobaw]

To fly and manage most German planes you need a twist stick and single throttle. To fly Soviet planes, you need two axes for throttle and pitch at bare minimum, third for mixture for good engine management, two more for radiator for complete setup.

 

Historically German pilots could control plane with just a throttle while Soviet pilots had to manage six levers. In BoS, Soviet planes need a throttle quadrants while German ones can be played with simpler, cheaper setup. No wonder most people stick to planes they can fly.

[-SF-Disarray]

you don't need all that to control a Soviet plane in this game. You need no more than you do in a German plane. While it is true that Soviet planes don't have all that fancy automated stuff, all the controls bind just fine to the keyboard. I know several people who use keyboard input to fly Soviet planes and they manage just fine. This is, officially, the second weakest excuse for team stacking I've read on this forum. Come back with something that actually makes sense.

[Gambit21]

To fly and manage most German planes you need a twist stick and single throttle. To fly Soviet planes, you need two axes for throttle and pitch at bare minimum, third for mixture for good engine management, two more for radiator for complete setup.

 

Historically German pilots could control plane with just a throttle while Soviet pilots had to manage six levers. In BoS, Soviet planes need a throttle quadrants while German ones can be played with simpler, cheaper setup. No wonder most people stick to planes they can fly.

 

I fly Russian planes just fine with a twist stick and two throttle axes.

Buttons on the controller work just fine for moving the mixture lever and radiators.

[19//Moach]

soviet planes like the yak-1b were actually designed such that propeller and throttle were operated together in most situations...

 

most others have propellers that require very sparse pilot input (set for takeoff/climb/combat/cruise...) - in those cases, it is also not really necessary to have a hotas axis for such functionality, as can be inferred by noticing how these controls are often separated in the cockpit, which made continuously coordinated operation with the throttle impossible

 

 

and even though I have an x55, I always setup my controls such that planes that don't have adjacent handles for power and rpm cannot be operated as though they did.  

 

alternatively,  players without dual levers can achieve the same results by binding both RPM and throttle axes to the same input, specifically for use with the Yak-1b (or possibly the spitfire) -- though it is still not a necessity anyways

 

 

 

so I'd say, this is not a highly relevant reason for the disparity in team preference on multiplayer...  the reasons for that are many, but largely more obvious than that

 

as for controls, I reckon ppl would fly german not because they don't have the hardware to operate the extra controls in russian airplanes, but because as german, they don't have to operate them at all

 

anyways - I find that this is still a very small part (if any at all) of WHY people gravitate to the german side... 

Edited July 28, 2017 by 19//Moach

[J2_Trupobaw]

 This is, officially, the second weakest excuse for team stacking I've read on this forum. Come back with something that actually makes sense.

 

This is explanation, not excuse; that's what I hear from my squadron mates when I rise subject of flying as Soviets. This are real reasons of real people; like it or not, plug your ears and shout it should go away because it does not make sense to you, it's still going to be there.

 

Whatever their reasons are, people flying as Germans won't change them to live up to your expectations, and berating them is unlikely to help. Want them to make effort of transitioning to more difficult plane? Make an effort of your own to convince them. Complains and demands are as cheap as flying 109.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Honestly, I play Luftwaffe because I don't play much, and have trouble remembering what planes have what CEM features. Let alone where to set them for different situations.

 

I flew the 109E7 for a week before remembering it had an oil radiator. That was embarrassing.

[216th_Lucas_From_Hell]

The M-105PF (Yak-1, -1b, 7b, LaGG-3) is almost hands free for beginners. Set the RPM to around 2600, open the radiators to 60% more or less, hit LShift-S every time you go above around 2000m, don't bother with mixture for now, and you're good to go for short and medium range missions. After you break the plane in a bit, learn the finer management aspects but the basics are that.

Edited July 28, 2017 by 55IAP_Lucas_From_Hell

[von-Luck]

Most people playing games tend to engage in the competitive aspects of the game. The score boards for wings of liberty for example give players a long term goal and sense of satisfaction. I know I enjoy seeing my name in the top 100 pilots far more than I should. That said the very same scoring system penalizes players for switching sides. Not only do you have to wait the 2 minutes in game but once you fly a single mission for the "other" side your score for the rest of the MONTH is shot. Past simple metrics your score is no longer meaningful in any competitive sense. For people to want to switch you need to encourage such behavior - not penalize it.

 

von Luck

Edited July 28, 2017 by von-Luck

[Gambit21]

Honestly, I play Luftwaffe because I don't play much, and have trouble remembering what planes have what CEM features. Let alone where to set them for different situations.

 

I flew the 109E7 for a week before remembering it had an oil radiator. That was embarrassing.

 

It's one of the reasons I find them less rewarding to operate and usually steer clear.

However the beauty there is that you can just concentrate on your ACM...less mental bandwidth required.

Nothing wrong with that. There are times when I appreciate their simplicity.

The downside is they attract more of the dweeb element, which makes me want to fly them even less.

 

I do like the 109E A LOT,  it's still one of my favorite crates, and 190 A-5 as well and imagine at some point I'll have to build some moving missions

for it on the Kuban map.

[sinned]

Its simple why more ppl fly german side.

I will say the taboo.

 

German weapons of ww2 are liked by more ppl than those of soviet. German war machine simply has more popular image.

 

Also, 109 and 190 are just more wanted planes than vvs fighters.

 

US and JP planes also look fearsome. Liked by many.

 

Vvs? General population just doesnt know them, hasnt seen them, hasnt heard of them. Lagg? Isnt that a term to describe internet connection delay?

 

A very simple fact but it is interesting how ppl pocket out cute excuses.

109 and 190 are just better looking war machines with LF image.

 

Vvs? Hm...

[Gambit21]

Yeah they have the mystique going for them, no doubt.