Bombing Issue

[TXSailor_1]

So, I'm flying the He-111 offline. I've read through Chuck's guide, and I think I get the gist of using the sight, but I've run into something interesting. The instruments displayed in the upper left of the bombsight aren't REMOTELY close to those displayed in the cockpit. Airspeed is up to 100km/h lower on the bombsight than the cockpit. Any idea what's up with this? Which should I listen to?

[ShamrockOneFive]

I had to go and double check. At first I thought maybe the bombsight was in TAS and the cockpit gauge was in IAS.... but they are all the same for me. No discrepancy between cockpit, speedbar, or bombsight.

[TXSailor_1]

Strange. I'm seeing about 290 km/h at 4,000m (cruise power settings) in the cockpit display, and about 150 km/h in the bomb sight gauge. I calibrated based on the cockpit gauge, not the bomb sight though, and hit dead on.

[JimTM]

So, I'm flying the He-111 offline. I've read through Chuck's guide, and I think I get the gist of using the sight, but I've run into something interesting. The instruments displayed in the upper left of the bombsight aren't REMOTELY close to those displayed in the cockpit. Airspeed is up to 100km/h lower on the bombsight than the cockpit. Any idea what's up with this? Which should I listen to?

 

Not sure about your airspeed issue, but your bombsight altimeter reads "QNE" (your height above mean sea level under ICAO Standard Atmosphere (ISA) conditions) and your cockpit altimeter can be set to read either "QNE" or  "QFE" (your height above the airfield that you departed from). You should use your cockpit altimeter set to QFE for level bombing. For details, see this post and the level bombing guide in the IL-2 Wiki.

Edited July 20, 2017 by JimTM

[216th_Jordan]

Can you make screenshots and post them here?

[TXSailor_1]

Maybe turn on the help option to show speed so you can identify which is showing the right one.

 

The cockpit is showing the correct information. So how do I fix the bombsight dials?

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

IGNORE The cockpit gauges..
Set only what you see in the bombsight.


 

[ShamrockOneFive]

The cockpit is showing the correct information. So how do I fix the bombsight dials?

 

I still don't understand how yours are different from ours. Try another bomber. Same thing there?

Edited July 21, 2017 by ShamrockOneFive

[216th_Jordan]

Do Units have an impact on this? Could it be that its showing mph instead of kph? For me it is the same as for Pinko.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

THE Bombsight has its Own Pitot Tube..

and the tube angle is probably slightly off compared to other 1.

Also How much difference are we talking here OP.
5kph (bomb might land 10M off target)
50kph (maybe 100m off target)

[TXSailor_1]

IGNORE The cockpit gauges..

Set only what you see in the bombsight.

 

 

 

 

The numbers I'm seeing in the bombsight don't seem possible, and when I bomb off the cockpit instruments, I hit my target.

 

 

THE Bombsight has its Own Pitot Tube..

 

and the tube angle is probably slightly off compared to other 1.

 

Also How much difference are we talking here OP.

5kph (bomb might land 10M off target)

50kph (maybe 100m off target)

 

I'm seeing about 130 +/- 10 kph difference, with the bombsight being slower than the cockpit instruments.

[TXSailor_1]

Here are screenshots. Tested the He-111 H6 and Pe-2-35. They both had WAY off airspeed indications, but while the He-111 Altimeter was not even trying, the Pe-2 was only off by several hundred meters.

 

He-111H6 starting altitude 4km

 

 

 

Pe-2-35 Starting Altitude 4km

 

 

[[DBS]Tx_Tip]

It looks as though you have selected "Imperial" as opposed to "Plane Dependent" or "Metric" within the Game Settings.

If that is correct then appears to be a bug which is not properly converting Imperial to Metric settings within the bombsite Altitude gauge.

 

You should post this over at the Bug topic so they can have a look at it.

[TXSailor_1]

Will do!

[busdriver]

Here are screenshots. Tested the He-111 H6 and Pe-2-35. They both had WAY off airspeed indications, but while the He-111 Altimeter was not even trying, the Pe-2 was only off by several hundred meters.

 

He-111H6 starting altitude 4km

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not a level bomber pilot, but if you're flying at almost 4km altitude and approximately 325k/hr why do you have .4km and 100km/hr in the control head settings for the bombsight? That looks like GROSS BUFFOONERY (switch error) as we said in my RL squadron.

 

EDIT: Not that it should impact the repeater display on the left side, unless it does. I guess I'm asking what happens if you dial in 4 with the altitude knob and 325 with the airspeed knob? Does that improve the repeater accuracy?

Edited July 21, 2017 by busdriver

[JimTM]

Here are screenshots. Tested the He-111 H6 and Pe-2-35. They both had WAY off airspeed indications, but while the He-111 Altimeter was not even trying, the Pe-2 was only off by several hundred meters.

 

...

 

What have you set your cockpit altimeter to, "Altimeter reference pressure: standard atmosphere" or "Altimeter reference pressure: nearest friendly airfield elevation" and if you set it to the later, did you do that on the ground before takeoff?

 

 

I'm not a level bomber pilot, but if you're flying at almost 4km altitude and approximately 325k/hr why do you have .4km and 100k/hr in the control head settings for the bombsight? That looks like GROSS BUFFOONERY (switch error) as we said in my RL squadron.

 

I believe TXSailor is using a level-bombing technique covered in the links here. You set your altitude to minimum and your airspeed to maximum before the bomb run so that the bombsight is tilted to the maximum distance, allowing you to see the target and adjust your course earlier. Then, when you get closer to the target, you start increasing the altitude setting and decreasing the airspeed setting toward their required values for the drop. In this case, TXSailor has the airspeed at minimum, but the altitude setting has a much bigger effect on the view than the airspeed setting.

[Riderocket]

At the bottom of the screen is says 203 mph, which is what the bomb site is also set to, even though it has kph on it.

 

Which means that the bomb site uses exact information from how high (off the ground) you are and how fast you really are going (in imperial or metric depending on what you've chosen), where as the cockpit gauges are rough estimates based on how they worked irl.

 

In my opinion, the bombsites aren't very realistic to real life. I wish we had something like from that old school B-17 game.

 

http://store.steampowered.com/app/328900/B17_Flying_Fortress_The_Mighty_8th/

Edited July 21, 2017 by Riderocket

[216th_Jordan]

The HUD shows IAS IIRC. Bombsight shows mph but if you enter this number, do the bombs drop rather correctly?

[busdriver]

I believe TXSailor is using a level-bombing technique covered in the links here. You set your altitude to minimum and your airspeed to maximum before the bomb run so that the bombsight is tilted to the maximum distance, allowing you to see the target and adjust your course earlier. Then, when you get closer to the target, you start increasing the altitude setting and decreasing the airspeed setting toward their required values for the drop. In this case, TXSailor has the airspeed at minimum, but the altitude setting has a much bigger effect on the view than the airspeed setting.

 

Thanks for the reply. I set up a quick mission, aircraft altitude 3K, airspeed 320 km/hr to experiment and see what you mean. With the Auto/View/Manual switch in Manual and the following parameters, I got various "look angles" ahead of the nadir (zero degree look angle). Of course YMMV

 

Altitude knob .4      Airspeed knob  100     Look angle 30 degrees (matches TXsailor's screenshots)

 

Altitude knob 3K      Airspeed knob  100     Look angle 12 degrees

 

Altitude knob .4      Airspeed knob  320     Look angle 62 degrees

 

Altitude knob 3K      Airspeed knob  320     Look angle 36 degrees

 

With the Auto/View/Manual switch in View, I could use the Further/Closer function and tilt the view finder up to 80 degrees (see the horizon to navigate and align on a point). My take away (simply as a guy that's dropped bombs IRL) would be to dial in the current altitude and airspeed parameters during cruise, along the wind correction adjustments, and have slewed the Further/Closer view up toward the horizon. Then approaching the target, I would use the View mode and gradually slew Closer as required before switching to Manual mode to pickle. My idea being to minimize knob twisting on the target run and concentrate on "pipper placement."

 

EDIT: I sincerely apologize for taking TXsailor's question regarding incorrect repeater airspeed and altitude display off on a tangent about technique. Mea culpa amigo. I cannot duplicate his error in quick missions.

Edited July 21, 2017 by busdriver

[TXSailor_1]

I'm not a level bomber pilot, but if you're flying at almost 4km altitude and approximately 325k/hr why do you have .4km and 100km/hr in the control head settings for the bombsight? That looks like GROSS BUFFOONERY (switch error) as we said in my RL squadron.

 

EDIT: Not that it should impact the repeater display on the left side, unless it does. I guess I'm asking what happens if you dial in 4 with the altitude knob and 325 with the airspeed knob? Does that improve the repeater accuracy?

 

I just threw up a free-flight quick mission to take screens of the discrepancy. Plugging in the proper input values to the computer doesn't change the indications on the left, so I didn't bother.

 

 

What have you set your cockpit altimeter to, "Altimeter reference pressure: standard atmosphere" or "Altimeter reference pressure: nearest friendly airfield elevation" and if you set it to the later, did you do that on the ground before takeoff?

 

 

 

Cockpit altimeter is set to nearest friendly airfield elevation (No idea why anyone would use standard atmo...)

 

 

The HUD shows IAS IIRC. Bombsight shows mph but if you enter this number, do the bombs drop rather correctly?

 

No, the indications on the left do NOT yield accurate bomb placement (The altitude difference alone is egregious, let alone the airspeed). Putting in the km/h indications and altitude shown in the cockpit however DO lead to accurate bomb placement.

[ShamrockOneFive]

What happens when you change your units to Metric in the panel? Do the numbers become accurate?

[TXSailor_1]

What happens when you change your units to Metric in the panel? Do the numbers become accurate?

I'll give that a try. I can see it working for airspeed, but altitude seems to follow neither rhyme nor reason...

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Set the entire game to Metric and it will work maybe :D

also better to learn proper measurement system..

The Inferial system is just that INFERIOR.

[TXSailor_1]

also better to learn proper measurement system..

 

The Inferial system is just that INFERIOR.

 

Cute. Funny, when I fly a jet, and drop actual bombs (Measured in pounds), my measurements are all in knots and feet, and I hit the target just fine. But please continue telling me how you know so much better about how things should be done... 

 

 

FWIW, setting units to plane dependant seems to fix the discrepancy between the gauges. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by TXSailor

[JimTM]

...

 

With the Auto/View/Manual switch in View, I could use the Further/Closer function and tilt the view finder up to 80 degrees (see the horizon to navigate and align on a point). My take away (simply as a guy that's dropped bombs IRL) would be to dial in the current altitude and airspeed parameters during cruise, along the wind correction adjustments, and have slewed the Further/Closer view up toward the horizon. Then approaching the target, I would use the View mode and gradually slew Closer as required before switching to Manual mode to pickle. My idea being to minimize knob twisting on the target run and concentrate on "pipper placement."

...

 

The challenge that I have with using the view mode is that when you have a crosswind, the center line in view mode is offset from the center line in manual mode. So you have to estimate how much to place the view mode line left or right of the target in order to get the manual mode line on target when you switch modes. I switched to using only manual mode because it allows me to line up the target at a reasonable distance, which gives me ample time to adjust the altitude and airspeed to the required values, closer to the target.

Edited July 22, 2017 by JimTM

[busdriver]

The challenge that I have with using the view mode is that when you have a crosswind, the center line in view mode is offset from the center line in manual mode. So you have to estimate how much to place the view mode line left or right of the target in order to get the manual mode line on target when you switch modes. I switched to using only manual mode because it allows me to line up the target at a reasonable distance, which gives me ample time to adjust the altitude and airspeed to the required values, closer to the target.

 

Certainly can't argue with success. I reckon that's why I prefer pointing my nose at the ground when I drop bombs.

[ShamrockOneFive]

FWIW, setting units to plane dependant seems to fix the discrepancy between the gauges. 

 

This certainly sounds like a bug then!

[Yogiflight]

Hi JimTM, I hope, I don't misunderstand you, but if I am right, then your problem is, that you set the winddirection and strengh in the bombsight, when in manual mode and with crosswinds your bombsight moves to the left or right, depending on the winddirection, relatively to your flightdirection. And when you now switch to view mode, it is still in the middle. But you can see in manual mode, how many degrees the bombsight moves to the side and then set the same number of degrees in the view mode with the left/right slider. Now your bombsight has the same side direction in manual and view mode.

[JimTM]

Hi JimTM, I hope, I don't misunderstand you, but if I am right, then your problem is, that you set the winddirection and strengh in the bombsight, when in manual mode and with crosswinds your bombsight moves to the left or right, depending on the winddirection, relatively to your flightdirection. And when you now switch to view mode, it is still in the middle. But you can see in manual mode, how many degrees the bombsight moves to the side and then set the same number of degrees in the view mode with the left/right slider. Now your bombsight has the same side direction in manual and view mode.

 

At first, I wasn't exactly sure what you meant, but I tried a test with 30 km/h wind from 30 degrees left. If I set the wind speed and angle, the manual mode line would track straight to a target, but the view mode would drift right. I dialed the view up/down angle close to the manual angle and then adjusted the view left/right control until the view line tracked the same as the manual line. I think this may be what you're supposed to do but I'll have to test some more to see if it works well on a "real" bomb run. Is this what you had in mind?

 

Is this supposed to resemble how you would use a real sight?

Edited July 23, 2017 by JimTM

[Yogiflight]

TBH, I am not sure, I understand, what the line is you are talking about. When you set the speed, altitude, windspeed and winddirection in manual mode, the triangle in the scale above the left/right slider will move to the right, with wind comming from the left, as your bombsight will swing to the right. you remember,how far it moves to the right, and put it to the same place when you are in the view mode. Now your bombsight has the same side elevation in manual and view mode.

In real life the LotFe bombsight dropped the bombs in auto mode.

[JimTM]

TBH, I am not sure, I understand, what the line is you are talking about.

 

    By "line" I was referring to the center line inscribed on the view mode and manual mode views in the bombsight.

 

When you set the speed, altitude, windspeed and winddirection in manual mode, the triangle in the scale above the left/right slider will move to the right, with wind comming from the left, as your bombsight will swing to the right. you remember,how far it moves to the right, and put it to the same place when you are in the view mode. Now your bombsight has the same side elevation in manual and view mode.

 

   Eureka! This is the first time I've seen the bit about the left/right slider triangle moving in manual mode in response to the speed, altitude, windspeed and winddirection settings. It's then a simple matter of applying that movement to the left/right slider triangle in view mode so that both views track the same to the target. Thanks for clearing that up Yogiflight.

...

Edited July 24, 2017 by JimTM

[Yogiflight]

i know this feeling much better, than I like, when something is directly before your eyes all the time and you didn't see it.

[3rd-BG_Concho]

Good tips guys...I need to check this out as well.