Spitfire Throttle - ?

[unreasonable]

Is it just me - ie my stick - or is the Spitfire throttle incorrectly calibrated?  (I had noticed similar issues with other planes but it seems especially obvious with the Spitfire).

 

According to the pilot's notes, for normal take-off, advance the throttle to the gate for rated power, ie +9lbs.  (Ie to the notch you can see).  For take off with full weight, advance the throttle all the way for +12lbs.

 

If I advance the throttle to the gate, (ie the visible throttle on the screen), I get about +2 lbs. Fully forwards gives +12, but to get +9 I have to find a position somewhere between the gate and the end.

 

This is not just a problem for take off, but the whole range of recommended power settings seem to occupy much too small a proportion of the available travel. eg the recommended cruise settings should be before the gate: in my game they are after it.

 

I cannot find a way to fix this currently - the in game settings do not allow you to construct a curved response for the throttle, unlike for pitch etc. 

 

My HOTAS is G940, correctly calibrated according to the Logitech software.

 

1) Is it just my set up or are others seeing the same thing?

 

2) Is there a cure? (That is not worse than the disease). 

Edited July 14, 2017 by unreasonable

[JtD]

Known errors with the Spitfire throttle include but are not necessarily limited to (see here):

 

49% is the wrong throttle position at which the gate is bypassed. It should be around 80%+.

0lb is the wrong boost at which the gate is bypassed. It should be 9lb, i.e. rated boost.

Boosts below rated boost should not be maintained until full throttle altitude by the ABC, it should be necessary to manually adjust boost after a certain altitude is reached. ABC cannot open the throttle fully at throttle lever positions lower than the gate.

Therefore, at high altitudes above full throttle altitude, reducing throttle from full to lower settings should reduce boost.

At throttle positions at the gate and above, operating the ABC cut out will result in boosts of 16lb, maintained over altitude until full throttle altitude.

At throttle positions below the gate, operating the ABC cut out will result in boosts of less than 16lb, maintained over altitude, but not up to full throttle altitude.

At throttle positions at the gate and above, without operating the ABC cut out, boost should be at +12 lbs, fixed.

 

 

It's an issue with the modelling, not the controller.

Edited July 14, 2017 by JtD

[unreasonable]

So not just me then - for some reason that makes me feel somewhat better  

 

Most of the issues about how the abc works I could live with easily enough, although always better to get it right.  My real gripe at the moment is how difficult it is to choose a particular desired boost exactly without fiddling around and looking at the instruments. 

[JtD]

Which is why I am a fan of accurate keyboard input like we had it in Il-2:1946. Fixed values in 10% steps, a plus and a minus key with 5% steps. Available for throttle, mixture, pitch. I was very easy this way to set specific values. I don't understand why this wasn't improved on, instead of taken out. But we've got two dozen keys to operate radiators.

[EAF19_Marsh]

I tend to look at boost and RPM as the the handle is too far in the office. Only exception is radiator at which I steal the occasional glance.

[unreasonable]

I tend to look at boost and RPM as the the handle is too far in the office. Only exception is radiator at which I steal the occasional glance.

 

I do too - the problem is that the the merest touch of the throttle makes a large difference to the boost - often I overshoot my desired boost, then undershoot while trying to adjust   This matters because of the engine limits, especially if you are not using the tech cheats tips. 

 

I mention the gate because it is a visible point on the throttle travel in game which is also mentioned in the PN: it was obviously intended as a pilot aid by feel.

[JtD]

It could be implemented by making the throttle range 80-95% the gate, so that for as long as your throttle setting is in that range, animation and engine parameters show everything as at the gate. This way it would be fairly easy to hit the gate with a quick throttle adjustment.

[Trooper117]

Add to that, shouldn't the mixture setting be set at the fully forward position as per the pilots notes, in game it is in the rear position.

[unreasonable]

No, the game is right, the Tech Specs are wrong, auto rich is back.  Take a look at this, relevant pic about half way down left column.

 

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/anatomy-of-spitfire-cockpit.html

 

ie here http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/anatomy-of-spitfire-cockpit.html/03it_001

Edited July 14, 2017 by unreasonable

[Trooper117]

Aha... gotcha, makes sense now

[unreasonable]

It could be implemented by making the throttle range 80-95% the gate, so that for as long as your throttle setting is in that range, animation and engine parameters show everything as at the gate. This way it would be fairly easy to hit the gate with a quick throttle adjustment.

 

At SL I can see that would work just fine - as a pilot you want either +9 or +12, no reason to want +10 - but is there not an issue when ascending: to maintain +9 you would need to advance the throttle every now and again?

 

I would be happy with just a sensitivity curve for the throttle similar to that for the control surfaces to make it a bit easier to hit specific values in the top of the range.  I think there are some third party utilities that claim to do that, but having had some horrid experiences with that sort of thing I am reluctant to mess up my current settings that work well enough apart from this one niggling issue.

[19//Moach]

it could (should) be implemented using pretty much the same methods used for doing it on the I-16, La-5, and several others...  

 

this is not new functionality for the game, as many planes have similar mechanism to unlock "full retard" mode...

 

 

it seems like an intentional "skip it for the next patch so we can release it already" decision that our devs made to leave it as is...

 

I mean, they've nailed much finer detail in all other aircraft - they wouldn't have missed that one just because they "missed it" - most likely they just chose to skip that for the next development cycle (this is fairly common practice in programming)

 

 

but I'm also just guessing... who knows what goes on by "the other side" 

Edited July 14, 2017 by 19//Moach

[unreasonable]

Not sure about that Moach, I have not flow a 109 for a while but I always had trouble getting exact throttle settings with those as well so I was unsure if it was just my stick, but it seems not.  Seems to be a more general issue with the game.

 

TBH I am less worried about the fact that the visuals of throttle position on screen do not seem to match what the engine should be doing, and more the difficulty of respecting engine limits when most of the outcomes seem to be crammed into the last 10-15 % of the HOTAS throttle's travel.

 

Recently all I have flown is Yaks where none of this matters.....

[Chief_Mouser]

No, the game is right, the Tech Specs are wrong, auto rich is back.  Take a look at this, relevant pic about half way down left column.

 

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/anatomy-of-spitfire-cockpit.html

 

ie here http://spitfiresite.com/2010/07/anatomy-of-spitfire-cockpit.html/03it_001

 

Aha! Thanks for this - using the mixture has been puzzling me for a while. Why on earth did they make the mixture lever work like that I wonder? It's counter-intuitive to all of the other controls. I would have placed it somewhere away from the throttle; it must have been easy to knock it forward and lean it by mistake.

Cheers.

[Yogiflight]

I know this issue from the FW190 A3, too. Hitting the 1.2 ATA for max. cruising power is very hard. I most times end up being at 1.3 ATA.

[unreasonable]

Aha! Thanks for this - using the mixture has been puzzling me for a while. Why on earth did they make the mixture lever work like that I wonder? It's counter-intuitive to all of the other controls. I would have placed it somewhere away from the throttle; it must have been easy to knock it forward and lean it by mistake.

Cheers.

 

I think the intuition is that you start back - just as you start the throttle back - then advance it when you need to change from your starting position.  Actually I think this is the most common arrangement - Yak 1 is the same.

[19//Moach]

I know it's obvious, but worth asking -- are you guys sure that you have your throttle axis curve fully linear?

 

check both ingame and whatever joystick software you may be using -- an x55 or warthog style hotas should have linear throttles...

 

 

OR... if you DON'T want linear throttle and that is actually the problem you're having - then you DO want a non-linear throttle curve... I recommend a little open source utility called "joystick curves" even, should you require finer control over your non-linearity than the game offers...

 

 

but other than that - any throttle of this kind will certainly react to pilot input in a non-straightforward way -- because these are complex carburetor-fed petrol engines, and their power output depends on a great variety of factors...  

 

I think the only place you'd ever find a truly 1:1 throttle to output relationship, is with an electric motor (and not just any kind of those)

 

 

 

I don't really mind much the quirks of how our spitfire throttle moves, visually, that is... I also almost don't mind even that the boost control is a boolean value without the possibility of holding 14" of boost in between....

 

what I do find disturbing, is when I have top-fuel-superpower mode on, and need to quickly chop it down (lest I overshoot my target and become just that) - the engine does not respond!

 

this is indeed quite alarming the first time it happens.... and thus more it requires an unrealistic "note to self, press this button before cutting power" element

 

 

but then again - this does all seem like very simple stuff, most likely it'll all be fixed by the next update

 

 

also, it's nowhere as alarming as the realization that the P8 compass is not just spinning inverted, but it also freezes when the gyro is caged, leaving you without bearings (trick: I use the sun as reference)

[unreasonable]

All fair points, Moach. I have checked, and my throttle is linear in the game - the way you can change it is using dead zones, which I do not use - and in the Logitech software.

 

Point taken about the actual non-linearity of RL throttles:  but I doubt that RL pilots had the difficulty we - or at least some of us - have in precise control.

 

Just on the last point - once you have pressed the tit and over-ridden the abc in-game, you can reduce power from +16 to any other setting: but you have to pull the throttle back a long way before you get a change.

[ZachariasX]

I find regarding gated throttles, how A2A simulations implemented it with their P-51 and Spit is the gold standard of doing it.

 

It works the following: Throttle goes up linearly with the input lever on your throttle quadrant. At the gate, it gets "stuck" some (I'm guessing here) 5% of the stick travel, making it easy to reach the gate, while not entering it. So, about 75% linear travel where in game lever and power setting follows you to reach gated position and max rated power.

Then until 80% input, the throttle lever does not move. From 80% to 100% input, the throttle lever will progressively enter the gate.

 

Another great thing: if you have a throttle quadrant with a "dent" at like 75% travel, you have a setting where you can calibrate this dent (like on the X52pro) to the position of the gate. It is the perfect solution for me. Else, it is hard to use the gate for what it is. Especially that engine boost regarding to lever position as we have it requires some further attention from the dev side.

[unreasonable]

That sounds like an excellent solution, but I doubt the team would go for it unless they can finally manage to implement the settings by aircraft flexibility we had in RoF.  

 

I do not have detent in my throttle, but I did try to make one during my last attempt to enjoy a 109 career by lightly taping a toothpick in a position corresponding to the start of emergency power similar to the wire that was used in some RL aircraft.      

 

Not a great success... 

[Sokol1]

Use a ball spring plunger

 

http://www.boneham.co.uk/Products/spring-plungers

Edited July 16, 2017 by Sokol1

[MrNoice]

one question ...  why is the  Spitfire RPM everytime at 3000 rpm ? 

[Yogiflight]

Because you fly all the time with 100% RPM?

[MrNoice]

omg..... nooo. if its 30 50 70 or 100% its 3000rpm

Edited July 16, 2017 by MrFies

[Yogiflight]

Are you sure, you don't speak about throttle? If you rule down your RPM lever, there should definitely be a decrease in rpm. Or you didn't select a key for RPM mangement.

[MrNoice]

normal throttle axis like all other planes

[Yogiflight]

For the Spit you need one axis for throttle plus one axis for RPM, like in bombers, or the Stuka, not only the throttle axis like in the 109 or the 190.

[MrNoice]

ok thx

[Sokol1]

one question ...  why is the  Spitfire RPM everytime at 3000 rpm ? 

 

Is not because "boost" are ON?

[unreasonable]

Use a ball spring plunger

 

http://www.boneham.co.uk/Products/spring-plungers

 

That is a good idea - for the DiY type, which unfortunately I am not, at least not that type of DiY...

[Eldur]

I know it's obvious, but worth asking -- are you guys sure that you have your throttle axis curve fully linear?

 

Problem is that some planes' throttle axes don't react linear even with linear axis curves. The 109G-2 was the first one with that issue, which I'd call a bug (and did report back then). Apparently, more planes got infested, because they never cared to fix it

By the way, which is the control to get that ABC cut out thing to get past +12 boost? That other boost control doesn't work and I couldn't figure it out yet...

[LukeFF]

There is only one engine boost command in the game

[curiousGamblerr]

Problem is that some planes' throttle axes don't react linear even with linear axis curves. The 109G-2 was the first one with that issue, which I'd call a bug (and did report back then). Apparently, more planes got infested, because they never cared to fix it

 

By the way, which is the control to get that ABC cut out thing to get past +12 boost? That other boost control doesn't work and I couldn't figure it out yet...

You're watching the throttle itself, right, not the gauge? Because the throttle lever should obviously move linearly in all aircraft, the virtual lever reflecting your real life throttle just like movements of the real life stick should perfectly reflect in the virtual stick (if you don't have any curve set). I've never noticed any aircraft behave oddly in this respect, but never had reason to test thoroughly. I'll definitely look at it next time I'm in a G-2.

 

If you mean the manifold pressure gauge doesn't respond linearly, however, that's different. I wouldn't necessarily expect manifold pressure to increase linearly with throttle, but I also don't know enough about engines to know either way. I just figure, if throttle controls fuel flow, the relationship with manifold pressure might not be linear, right?

[Farky]

Looks to me like the model problem in the OP's original post is fixed? The lever does not go into the "Gate" in the cockpit until my throttle (CH Quadrant) is pushed most of the way forward, and when it does enter the gate the message "Boosted Mode" comes up in technochat and the indicator reads +9.

 

 

It's better, still not correct, but better. "Gate" is now visually at 89% throttle, boost with this setting is some +8.8 lbs. You need 91% throttle to get +9 lbs, which is beyond "Gate" in game. All the other issues (errors) are still there.

[unreasonable]

Too busy to actually check recently - but now I have checked it is much better, less extreme sensitivity - so I am glad that change has got into the development at least.  

 

Still hard to get the "gate" setting smack on. The proposals outlined by JtD and Zacharias to have a little deadzone at the gate would be perfect - maybe someday.......

[unreasonable]

You're watching the throttle itself, right, not the gauge? Because the throttle lever should obviously move linearly in all aircraft, the virtual lever reflecting your real life throttle just like movements of the real life stick should perfectly reflect in the virtual stick (if you don't have any curve set). I've never noticed any aircraft behave oddly in this respect, but never had reason to test thoroughly. I'll definitely look at it next time I'm in a G-2.

 

If you mean the manifold pressure gauge doesn't respond linearly, however, that's different. I wouldn't necessarily expect manifold pressure to increase linearly with throttle, but I also don't know enough about engines to know either way. I just figure, if throttle controls fuel flow, the relationship with manifold pressure might not be linear, right?

 

The issue was not the match between your hotas stick and the game throttle lever on screen,  but that much of the change in manifold pressure is crammed into the last few % of the throttle travel, making it extremely hard to select a given MP.  Ie it is between the throttle lever position and the MP.

 

 With the 109s I had no idea if this was correct or not, but with the Spitfire, you could see that the match between lever position and MP was incorrect in game, because we know what the MP pressure should be when the throttle is at the gate.   Now the higher pressures are spread over a wider range of the throttle position as they should be and the pressure at the gate is almost correct, making it much easier to select a given pressure.

 

It is months since I have flown a 109 but just checking now I get the impression that the change in throttle-MP position has been implemented here too: it seems much easier to set a precise MP without overshooting than I recall.  Placebo? Have I missed a set of DD notes?  Other aircraft?

[curiousGamblerr]

Thanks unreasonable, makes sense. I'm in the same boat, I didn't fly the 109 for the few months before the patch so I'm not sure if anything has changed there. Glad the Spit has gotten closer to correctness though.

[DD_Crash]

I do too - the problem is that the the merest touch of the throttle makes a large difference to the boost - often I overshoot my desired boost, then undershoot while trying to adjust  

There is an issue with the Logi software. You can advance the throttle, stop, and the reverse it but it will jump (I cant remember how much) but it was very hard to set a specific %. This was done to mask the cheap pots they used. It took a long time for them to admit it and by that time they stopped production.