Not a Spitfire OP thread

[Fauster]

The main purpose of this thread is to see if anyone else has been getting the same impression, as I have heard grumblings but not seen any posts. Any facts to support or criticize my argument are welcome. Please don't turn this into a flame war and get the thread locked.

 

Anyways, I've been flying the Spit extensively and have also flown against it about an equal amount of time. I am finding that the Spitfire has a particularly strong DM, strong enough to give me the impression it is toughest fighter in the game currently.

 

From my experience the engine takes damage extremely well. Even with wing mounted weaponry I have little fear of going head on with Fw-190's as their engine is more likely to come out the merge with extensive damage. Likewise flying for the Luftwaffe I have put accurate cannon bursts into the engine cowling of the Spit only to have some light grey smoke emit from the exhaust. I would imagine the Merlin wouldn't be substantially more durable than the other liquid cooled engines but it is pretty hard to cause catastrophic damage.

 

The front half half of the aircraft in general feels extremely tough. I rarely break the wings off a Spit even after a pass that would have normally taken the wing off and killed the engine of the Russian fighters. The best way I can describe hitting the wings and forward fuselage of a Spitfire with HE is like shooting a metal plate. You see the rounds bursting on the surface but it the majority of the shrapnel and explosive damage appears to not penetrate the skin. I'll admit I have not recorded these events transpiring but Magz has recently put up a video that actually demonstrates the Spitfire's ruggedness quite well:

 

 

In contrast, I do not know if the Spitfire was historically an incredibly rugged plane. I had the impression it was mediocre in comparison to the Hurricane's durability. If the Spitfire has a weak spot it's got to be the tail as the rudder comes off easily and elevator control cables feel quite vulnerable as well as the elevators themselves. I enjoy flying the MC202 against the Spit as the Bredas can cut off the rear control surfaces nicely.

 

In conclusion, I feel that maybe the DM might have been given a little too much strength. Which is understandable with how short a time this aircraft has been out. Again, the main purpose of this thread is to see if anyone else has the same feeling whether it be flying in it or against it, and to hopefully help the developers fix any issues if there are truly any.

[19//Moach]

let me quote Isaac Asimov here with a perfect reply for ya:

 

 

"THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER" 

 

 

 

 

the spitfire hasn't been out long enough for us to confidently determine whether or not it takes too much or too little damage... it simply needs more time - to get shot down plenty more times, you know... for Science™

 

even then, these things are usually quite subjective, and extremely circumstantial... over the course of a few months (not weeks) it is likely that a more clear pattern may develop, should there be anything that is indeed off by a non-negligible amount

 

up until then,  I think we're gonna need more ammo

 

 

the thought is valid, of course, we should always be vigilant to such things, as they're very elusive for devs to spot beforehand - but I believe it is yet too soon to tell....  

 

 

 

 

and yes, historically the spitty was considered a bit "too pretty for the eastern front" - the hurricane was more of a jeep/tank in that sense...

 

of course, this does not mean it should dissolve down to its constituent atoms right on the first shot - as usual, such "historical durability traits" are in no small part based upon maintenance reports and long term considerations (more than a single sortie),  none of which really matters ingame.

 

and that means any such accounts are almost meaningless for adjusting damage models, except in rare cases where extremely specific information exists about incidents where the plane actually gets shot up and someone was there to write about it later

 

 

so even if one reads somewhere that a plane was "too fragile for russia" - that cannot be taken out of context (ignoring the long term / maintenance aspect) as to imply it fared worse than a russian plane once on the receiving end of something terrible... that goes for any plane, really

 

 

in the end, the best we can hope for is for devs to get a good "educated guess" at first, and if anything is off, it'll gradually become self-evident from play-testing

 

 

but so far with the spitfire, I haven't seen anything that would suggest any particular oddities towards either "too weak" or "too stronk" - it's just too soon anyways

Edited July 11, 2017 by 19//Moach

[Max_Damage]

I agree it is too durable. IRL the pilot was not even protected from armor piercing 7.7 mm. Also, the emergency power cooldown time is too small. For me the plane exceeded all expectations. The increased boost settings at +16 really work wonders.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Max_Damage

[Blutaar]

I agree about the durability, its quite tough and some times its tougher then the IL2 i think. The short recovery timer for emergency power will be corrected it seems.

[CUJO_1970]

It's tough (probably too tough) but it is by no means tougher than a Yak or a Lagg, both of which can absorb absurd amounts of damage at times.

 

What seems to be missing is intermediate damage...complex damage like aileron and elevator linkage being damaged...guns being knocked out of order, etc. The DM seems top have two settings: 1. Minor damage. 2. Catastrophic damage - with nothing in between. So, you may look at the online stats of your sortie and it may say .5% damage./ .5% damage / .3% damage / .7 % damage / .3% damage / .5% damage / .3% damage / and then 98% shoot down...

 

So as FW pilot I always see Yaks and Laggs flying around trailing columns of smoke, but with no intermediate performance hit to their flight envelope - speed and maneuverability remain relatively unchanged until catastrophic damage occurs.

[Barnacles]

The structural weakening works well. I hit a spitfire with no obvious damage. Continued to do a few attacks, had to run away, then 20mins later his wing fell off in a gentleish turn.

[CUJO_1970]

The structural weakening works well. I hit a spitfire with no obvious damage. Continued to do a few attacks, had to run away, then 20mins later his wing fell off in a gentleish turn.

 

Yes, this is true and I think is one of the coolest part of the DM...

 

I think there is so much potential here.

[DD_Arthur]

I haven't flown it online yet - I think I'm still near the back of the queue   - so I've been QM'ing it against the A.I.

As far as the A.I. dukeing it out;  pointless trying to judge altitude performance as the fight always ends up on the deck  but the Spit certainly has the better of the Macchi, the Emil and can really give the F2 a run for its money.

Against the F4 and the 190's its so - so.

 

Flying the 'plane itself is a joy and I'm really anticipating the rest of the revised FMs.  One of the things that really strikes me is the effect of closing the throttle.  The 'plane slows down...immediately!  Hurrah

 

Using the cannons against the A.I. became passe surprisingly quickly.  All those big 'kersplosions followed by folding wings.....much more fun watching the DeWilde .303 ammo sparkling on your enemies wings.  At least I'm assuming that's whats being modelled?

 

So far, being shot down by the A.I. involves either a PK or soaking up an impressive amount of damage until a wing falls off.

 

Oh yeah, with ICDP's 4K template and skins it looks simply fantastic.    

[silvergun]

I also noticed this, especially in the front damage, where are very low or nonexistent, with the hit explosion and nothing happening to the plane.

[Finkeren]

It seems to be very sturdy in the structure tbh. Never seems to lose wings or parts of the tail section. 

 

From what I've seen so far, the engine and assorted systems seem to take damage well enough.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Spit is first plane where I saw propeller damage in the midair.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

It seems to be very sturdy in the structure tbh. Never seems to lose wings or parts of the tail section.

 

From what I've seen so far, the engine and assorted systems seem to take damage well enough.

Yesterday on Berloga I did lost wings and tail.

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

The tail actually seems to be the weakest part of it atm. The wings do come off too, but they seem very very strong to me as well.

[JG27*Kornezov]

As the Spit can pull an insane amount of G loads instantly, it can desintagrate at the smallest damage at the tail section. However while he is slow, he can take a p40 amount of damage (even some more).

 

The Tacview software shows that while the  bf 109 f4 and Yak 1 b can build  for example 8 g at 500 km/h, the Spit can pull 10 gs in a matter of a second. That is why the blackouts occur. Is that is realistic or not? But this kind of a turn is like su 27 in DCS with negative stability with fly by wire completely turned off.

 

Neutral stabuility does not mean negative stability LOL.

 

Experienced simmers adapt very easiliy to the FM but average pilots struggle (as usual).

Edited July 13, 2017 by JG27_Kornezov

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

The wings do come off too, but they seem very very strong to me as well.

 

If you look at how the Spitfire's wings are constructed, it's not super surprising. They have two pretty sizable main spars that are set some distance apart - a heavy mainspar towards the leading edge and an auxiliary spar towards the trailing edge with cross bracing at regular intervals.

 

This is for a Type A wing but they're sparred virtually the same:

[Gavrick]

 

 

That is why the blackouts occur. Is that is realistic or not?

That is, even at high speed the plane could develop such a high g-overload that there was a risk of breaking the structure.

[Holtzauge]

Yes, I've read several accounts of the (at least compared to German fighters) low elevator stick forces on the Spitfire and the risk of overloading the wings. In addition, I suppose the pitch rate you get on a neutrally stable aircraft could get you into trouble as well if you don't fly it with a light hand. This is one of the features I like and that I think you have captured well in the BoX Spitfire Gavrick!   

[unreasonable]

Indeed - it is discussed at length in the NACA report on the Spitfire's handling characteristics.  

 

Here is the link again for the benefit of the skeptics, should they choose to read it.   https://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19930092582

 

 

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

It true that Spit can be pulled very fast and pilot start to black out fast to but to much /to fast pull and you end in spin which would not end by itself (stick back to neutral).

[Lusekofte]

I can only say that the description of the Spitfire are remarkable like what said in COD . Other than that I have only test flown the spit 2 times in QMB and one of them I was disabled by hit in the engine by a BF 109 E 7 from behind. I always find the Spitfire too easy to fly in all Simulators except DCS. And this sim is no different in this matter. But then again I tested the MC 202 for the first time today, boy that was a stable and easy plane to fly. I missed out on that one these years

[Fauster]

I appreciate the info in regards to the way the Spit flies but I'd like to bring the thread back to the damage model.

 

After flying against the Spits some more on Wings of Liberty some more, I stand on my theory that the front half is exceptionally strong but the elevator control cables seem to let go easier than any other plane. Many good passes I took on Spitfires generated little visible damage and yet the plane would slowly nose down and dive into the ground. This effect is particularly pronounced when attacking from high 6 o'clock, but I have also snapped the cables in the Spit from the dead 6 as well. 

 

As I stated earlier I want to determine if there is a damage model bug on the Spitfire and to bring it to the developer's attention if necessary. Remember that the Bf110 G2 had a damage bug with its guns being disabled after very little damage when it first came out. 

[CUJO_1970]

After flying against the Spits some more on Wings of Liberty some more, I stand on my theory that the front half is exceptionally strong

 

This is one of the typical examples - you can see the nose take even 20mm hits - this plane had its wing taken off in this pass, but the engine kept running.

 

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

YOU CANNOT Use ingame recorder to locate exact location of the hits or any sort of meaningful netcode or hitzone investigations :D

Its simply to inaccurate reproduction and not an actual recording of wat happened but Approximate.

It only records so many co ords for the bullet and flight path and point of impact.
It does not cope with lag during recording well either.

[CUJO_1970]

Yeah that's not always true.

[CUJO_1970]

For example I hit this Spit online and he lost his elevator exactly where I planted a 20MM round.

 

In this case the damage is what I would expect - the elevator came off and the aircraft became uncontrollable and went in.

 

[MAJ_Kimchi]

Just thought I would add my experience here:

 

I was flying a FW 190 A-5 with the two additional 20mm cannons. Prior to engaging a spitfire I had two kills (not in the same flight) one was an IL2 that I shot the tail off of at close range, second was a Yak that I shot the wing off of on the first pass.

 

So...I’m on a new flight and come across a spitfire that did not see me. I did three passes with hits every time, third pass the spit filled my wind screen to ensure I wasn’t missing. Note the spitfire started smoking after the first pass. In the end I spent so much time trying to shoot down the spitfire that I got jumped by a Lagg and died. Spitfire was still floating around. I find it hard to believe a spitfire can endure three passes with hits from four 20mm cannons using minengeschoß...

[56RAF_Roblex]

I don't see what you are seeing.  My experience is that the FW190 is the strongest aircraft  in the game except for maybe the IL2 which is supposed to be tough.  It is correct that historically it had strong wing construction but many times I have hit one in the engine cowling and thought 'That's it. Fight over.' only to see him fly on with just minor paint damage.  I go get the track and look again in slow motion and I see the hits but all it causes is cosmetic damage, just a black mark.  Meanwhile my spit dies when the first cannon shell explodes in my general area :-)

 

It is all subjective. We see different things.  I don't have that trouble with 109s, they die when they are supposed to 

Edited October 2, 2017 by 56RAF_Roblex