different Ammobelts for german MG151/20

[MrNoice]

.

Edited September 2, 2017 by MrFies

[indyscout]

While I feel like the Minengeschoss shells are plenty effective, I do agree that having customizable belts would be cool. Being able to customize your belts in CLOD was something I very much enjoyed.

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

While I feel like the Minengeschoss shells are plenty effective, I do agree that having customizable belts would be cool. Being able to customize your belts in CLOD was something I very much enjoyed.

 

Customizing belts is unhistorical.

 

Having specific belts for specific missions is not.

[Holtzauge]

Well the effect of the Minen seems unhistorical as well: The German Schiessfibel recommended a larger proportion of Minen in the belting when expecting fighter opposition. One would assume that was based on them being effective since they did have access to Panzer, Brand and Minen. However, based on how thing stand in IL-2 DM, AP are more effective so I'm sure the recommendation in the IL-2 Schiessfibel would be to load up with AP.

[CIA_Yankee_]

Well the effect of the Minen seems unhistorical as well: The German Schiessfibel recommended a larger proportion of Minen in the belting when expecting fighter opposition. One would assume that was based on them being effective since they did have access to Panzer, Brand and Minen. However, based on how thing stand in IL-2 DM, AP are more effective so I'm sure the recommendation in the IL-2 Schiessfibel would be to load up with AP.

 

Weren't the minen damage issues fixed a few updates ago?

Edited July 10, 2017 by Yankee_

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

That's entirely irrelevant.

Weren't the minen damage issues fixed a few updates ago?

 

Not really - some parameters related to fragmentation were updated to provide some more "oomph" but MGeschoss doesn't deal in fragmentation damage, it deals in kinetic/pressure damage.

 

Kinda like putting lipstick on a pig.

[Holtzauge]

-snip-

 

No.

[Holtzauge]

Weren't the minen damage issues fixed a few updates ago?

 

I think they did do an improvement which was good but AFAIK the general impression is still that AP are more effective than Minen in-game which they of course are in some cases also IRL but since most parts of a fighter is load bearing structure then Minen should be better since in most cases you hit structure, not engine, pilot or single point of failure parts in the structure.

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

IMO something is off with how much kinetic energy affects damage from HE shells. The Minengeschoß rounds tear airplanes apart much better if you zoom past than if you are parked behind an enemy turning with them. Seems a bit weird to me considering most of the damage should be done by the rounds exploding....

 

As for the DM patch. It did make things better, and I'm sure I'm gonna get called a Luftie/Wehraboo or whatever other insult people can come up with for this, but I get the feeling it's gotten worse again since then. I remember very distinctly all the russian planes got easier to destroy, except for the Mig which got much tougher..... And La-5s seemed to go up in flames much much more often. Now all of these things I noticed are gone again. Not just me either. Everyone I fly with has this impression, as well as a few others I've spoken too. Anyone else get this feeling?

[Jason_Williams]

NOTHING HAS BEEN CHANGED SINCE WE LAST UPDATED AND INCREASED THE POWER OF THE GERMAN 20MM. 

 

Getting very tired of this conspiracy theory stuff.

 

Jason

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

NOTHING HAS BEEN CHANGED SINCE WE LAST UPDATED AND INCREASED THE POWER OF THE GERMAN 20MM. 

 

Getting very tired of this conspiracy theory stuff.

 

Jason

 

For the most part there are no conspiracies in this thread.

 

Please consider expanding the AP/HE belting options that are present for the LaGG, La-5, BK37, etc. to the other aircraft in the sim.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Not trying to accuse anyone or start a conspiracy Jason. Apologies if that's how you interpreted my comments. Just wondering if others, specifically VVS pilots noticed differences as well. You guys said yourself the issues patched out were unwanted or caused indirectly by earlier patches/ changes in areas not specifically to do with the DMs. 

 

Edit: Also, to be clear, I get the feeling the DM, like many things in Multiplayer, is very Ping dependent. Most of the servers for MP are in Russia or Eastern europe. I'm sure this accounts for many inconsistencies as well.

Edited July 10, 2017 by 9./JG27DefaultFace

[Willy__]

Yes there were no changes in the damage indeed. But still, the AP ammo still way too much effective compared to the HE. Just like it always were.

[Irgendjemand]

I fly the 202 from time to time and i have the impression even the bredas do more damage than the 20mm of a 109.
And not just from one sortie.

[JaffaCake]

NOTHING HAS BEEN CHANGED SINCE WE LAST UPDATED AND INCREASED THE POWER OF THE GERMAN 20MM. 

 

Getting very tired of this conspiracy theory stuff.

 

Jason

 

 

I believe the way the 20mm damage was addressed with regard to the patch you mention  by increasing the number/distance of the fragments that the 20mm generates.

 

Unfortunately those fragments are lighter than the counterparts of the non-minen ammo.

 

My belief (due to the lack of pure historical documents) is that the minen damage is dealt primarily through the pressure wave that the explosion generates inside of the aircraft (as these shells have delayed fuse). Thus fragments are only secondary source of damage, not primary.

 

I believe (to my limited game experience), that such explosive damage is poorly modelled in IL2-BOX series and thus minen type shells underperform. Alternatively the skin and surface damage caused by such explosions may be registered correctly, but has insufficient impact on the aircraft for the minen type shells to appear effective.

 

An additional reason why such "conspiracy" theories are quite popular is lack of tools for consistent and repeatable experiments in the game. We do not have accurate read outs of the speeds or damage, nor can we consistently hit the same part of the aircraft for testing purposes. It is understandable that you do not aim to create a 100% accurate game, but it would be helpful if the community could provide you with consistent and reliable reports of inaccuracies  and inconsistencies in the game, instead of trying to second-guess mechanics while only able to "prove" the results through very difficult to repeat experiments.

Edited July 11, 2017 by JaffaCake

[Asgar]

I'm very statisfied with the MG 151/20s performance since the damage increase in the last patch. it's not perfect since they still rely on fragments, but that's what the engine allows and it works well enough. If you are having trouble downing any aircraft witht he new 20mm than you might want to improve your gunnery   

BUT, ammo belt options would be a very nice idea indeed. getting some more mineshells or some extra incindiairys for attacking  bombers would be nice!

Edited July 11, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[JaffaCake]

I'm very statisfied with the MG 151/20s performance since the damage increase in the last patch. it's not perfect since they still rely on fragments, but that's what the engine allows and it works well enough. If you are having trouble downing any aircraft witht he new 20mm than you might want to improve your gunnery   

 

BUT, ammo belt options would be a very nice idea indeed. getting some more mineshells or some extra incindiairys for attacking  bombers would be nice!

 

 

Unfortunately this is inaccurate representation of what minen shots would do to the aircraft. Fragments are light and deal a lot less damage than a "normal" he shell would. On the other hand minen causes damage to everything in the compartment that it hit.

 

Imagine that currently minen shell would damage some of the mgs, pilot and engine from a hit to the wing of the aircraft. In reality it would be a lot less likely to happen. Currently though the minen shell would not deal "feel-correct" amount of damage to the skin of the wing, nor would it impact the piping from the fuel tanks or the delicate ribs of the wing (that take majority of the impact from the pressure wave). I am not a explosive expert to tell exactly what would happen from an interior explosion in an aircraft wing, but even common sense tells me that fragments that fly fast and far do not replace the completely different physical behaviour of an explosion.

Edited July 11, 2017 by JaffaCake

[Asgar]

seriously...next time read before you waste time writing an answer

[JaffaCake]

seriously...next time read before you waste time writing an answer

 

 

 

 

works well enough

 

 

I explained why it doesn't. But I prefer not to engage in personal attacks.

[Asgar]

"personal attacks" please just cancel your contract with your provider, if you thought there was a personal attack here you should really not be on the internet, i don't want to you to get hurt

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

TL;DR:

 

There's no conspiracy although a handful of people clearly think there is. We need more belts.

[Rolling_Thunder]

"personal attacks" please just cancel your contract with your provider, if you thought there was a personal attack here you should really not be on the internet, i don't want to you to get hurt

He said he "prefered not to engage". Your passive aggressive approach is borderline personal. Everybody can see that.

[LukeFF]

and even the 4x.303british MGs are far better than the MG151/20....

Not much point in continuing to discuss things if you really believe that.

[Irgendjemand]

Flew the spit a while today on berloga. Performancewise I cant complain that it was too good. Its good but certainly cant compete with a 109 or FW.
Really what does not feel right is the guns damage. Every single time i hit a german it instantly fell apart. No matter if it was a 109 or a FW. I mean if it was only about winning i would simply fly this plane.
I cant understand how you guys (and i unclude the devs) can consider this to be "OK". Its simply not.
And please dont come with conspiracy BS. I am not saying that. All I can say is how it feels for me.

 

Oh and on the MGs begin better than german 20s. Cant agree with that. They dont feel any better than the german 7.62. Trying to down a plane with them is possible but takes either luckshots or a lot of ammo.
The 20s are what bothers me. They simply seem to saw off whatever you hit with them.

Isnt there a crew of beta testers? I mean thanks for doing the testing and all. But I cant understand how you guys cannot notice that? Really!

Edited July 11, 2017 by Irgendjemand

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-snip-

 

I will say that while this hasn't been my experience (got an hour in after two months so could be a bit out of practice) it's important to keep in mind how freakin' huge the Hispano 20mm rounds are. 

 

There is also no direct indication of whether the ammo is HE or AP which you can infer what I'm getting at by reading the rest of the thread.

 

The .303s are also absolutely terrible... But I like it. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Space_Ghost

[Nightrise]

@Jason_Williams,

 

its not a Conspiracy... its the truth just compare the 151/20 with the russian 20mm SchWAK... and even the 4x.303british MGs are far better than the MG151/20....

(I tried it in IL2 BOS with the latest update)

And yes you said you increased the damage but on the other side you made the airplanes thougher...

 

 

 

So maybe you can add some more ammo belts with more AP than HE because that would help and I think they used more AP for fighters/against fighters than against bombers

Or..you could like learn to aim or something

[MrNoice]

Or..you could like learn to aim or something

wait so I can aim with planes with  SchWAKs and Hispano 20mm but cant with   MG151/20 ?  that makes sense.... even though I said somewhere above that I do hit with the  MG151/20 .....  but it will only make some small  holes...

Edited July 11, 2017 by MrFies

[Zirashi]

wait so I can aim with planes with  SchWAKs and Hispano 20mm but cant with   MG151/20 ?  that makes sense.... even though I said somewhere above that I do hit with the  MG151/20 .....  but it will only make some small  holes...

Both ShVAKs and Hispanos have muzzle velocities 100m/s+ faster than the MG151/20 which would mean the MG151 would require more lead to hit targets. Therefore, it is easier to aim at distant target with the ShVAK and Hispano MKII than the MG151/20.

[LukeFF]

Isnt there a crew of beta testers? I mean thanks for doing the testing and all. But I cant understand how you guys cannot notice that? Really!

 

I'm not going to say whether or not something was noticed, because one of two things will happen:

• If we say we noticed something, you'll then say the developers were wrong / biased / clueless for implementing things the way are.
• If we say we didn't notice something, then you'll conclude that we are all incapable of noticing obvious things / biased, etc.

It's a lose-lose situation, and so I'm going to leave things at that. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by LukeFF

[=GW=xshinel]

I have no problem with the effect of the these ammo at present, I just want Jason can provide us more ammo belt options.

[silvergun]

Both ShVAKs and Hispanos have muzzle velocities 100m/s+ faster than the MG151/20 which would mean the MG151 would require more lead to hit targets. Therefore, it is easier to aim at distant target with the ShVAK and Hispano MKII than the MG151/20.

 

True for the Hispano Mk.II with big barrel length and big ammo round, but not true for the ShVak, where the muzzle velocity varies 750/790 m/s dependent of ammo type loaded.

 

The MG151/20 is not much different with 705 m/s for HE-T or AP and 805 m/s for M-Geschoss, but more important than muzzle velocity is the balistic coeficient and energy where the German 20mm wins, but not reflected in the game.

[Blutaar]

Isnt there a crew of beta testers? I mean thanks for doing the testing and all. But I cant understand how you guys cannot notice that? Really!

 

What i didnt get is the short recovery timer for emergency boost, how that wasnt noticed instantly and was fixed before early access release i cant understand. The really good damage performance is another thing i struggle with. It is ture, the shells are bigger but the HE is half of what the Minen has if i remember correcly. It should have more kinetic energy because the mv is higher by ca 100m/s but this should only benefit the lead for aiming at distant targets or on heavily armored targets/components. I shoot only at really close range especially with the Hispanos and most of the time the wings rip off no matter wihch fighterplane i hit, most noticible on the Spit itself, it has the toughest wings in my opinion and loses them not so easy as any other plane but it still loses them freqeuntly when hitting the plane with the Hispanos. Overall i feel that the Spit is the toughest plane in damage resistence, more so then the IL2 but this is just my opinion and it seems im the only one who think that because i dont see people complaining about this. So pls dont nail me on that. Also the 5 min boost timing from the ingame manuals are not the same as ingame. Ingame i get 2:55 min for +16 boost till boost time is reached and 4:11 for +12 boost before limit. 

 

These things i noticed in my first few quickmissions and i was vocal about the damage and recovery timer in another thread but only the 2:05 min recovery timer was confirmed to be an error. Anyway, the Spit is in an open beta status and i think it is awesome. It feels like a dream and i really hope that something from it will be reflected on all planes with the updated FMs like the Spit has. It would be a shame if the spit will be the only plane that seems to correlate with pilot accounts handling wise. I mainly speak about the 109 and 190 of course but other planes are also a bit weird like the Mig3, La5 and the P40. Even the Yaks cant be compared to the Spitifre when it comes to pure handling in my opinion so i have really high hopes in the new FM.

[Irgendjemand]

I'm not going to say whether or not something was noticed, because one of two things will happen:

• If we say we noticed something, you'll then say the developers were wrong / biased / clueless for implementing things the way are.
• If we say we didn't notice something, then you'll conclude that we are all incapable of noticing obvious things / biased, etc.

It's a lose-lose situation, and so I'm going to leave things at that. 

 

Ill never say the devs are biased since i honestly think they are not. I simply say what I say and that is that things dont feel right. I am much too casual of a gamer to make any other statements.

That would also require testing and whatnot. Simply no time for that. 

 

 

really high hopes in the new FM

 

Agree on practically everything you said. But a +1000 on this one here in particular. 

 

 

in a 109 you cannot allow yourself to get hit in any manner

 

Also agree to that. Whenever i fly a 109 and get hit i abort sortie and try to get home alive. Most of the time it gets really close. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

With regards to various types of ammunition loadouts, nice idea.

 

Regarding damage/performance/” feelings” It’s probably a good idea to compile as much historic data as you can, perform tests within the sim, with tracks or video footage and submit a report to the Devs either via DM or in the relevant section of the forum.

 

Complaining about FM, damage model and “feelings” across multiple threads isn’t going to be very effective.

[Irgendjemand]

 

 

Complaining about FM, damage model and “feelings” across multiple threads isn’t going to be very effective.

 

who are you referring to here? Me?

[Matt]

Isnt there a crew of beta testers? I mean thanks for doing the testing and all. But I cant understand how you guys cannot notice that? Really!

 

What i didnt get is the short recovery timer for emergency boost, how that wasnt noticed instantly and was fixed before early access release i cant understand.

It's amazing how people can tell what has been noticed and what hasn't been noticed and how and why something is not perfect every single time, without having access to the beta testing forums.

 

It's pretty insulting for everyone involved, especially the devs who are working their asses off and the beta testers who are spending their free time to support this project instead of taking apart every single small issue instantly and complain over and over and over on the forums during early access phase. Of course people do the same when things get delayed by a week or two (recently i read how someone wrote that the Spitfire was long ready and the release only delayed because of the sale going on).

Edited July 12, 2017 by Matt

[Irgendjemand]

I dint insult anyone. And didnt mean to. Having flown the Spit myself sawing apart everything i shoot at just made the "gun-efficiency-issue" so obvious i had to ask this.
And again. I apprechaite the testers work. And I like the product. Thats why I support the project. With my money by buying every single thing they offer up until today. And i dont plan on stopping to invest.
All I do is expressing my opinon. After all theses forums are fulfilling their purpose this way. Live with it or not. I dont really care.

[Matt]

But I cant understand how you guys cannot notice that? Really!

This has nothing to do with expressing your opinion. You're saying very clearly that the beta testers did not do their job by not noticing this, which you can't possibly know due to lack of access to the beta forums. So you're only spreading rumours about the incapabiltiy of the beta testers and possibly the devs decision of choosing the beta testers. All without knowing. And all that publicly on these forums.

 

And that's what i call insulting and certainly not "appreciating the testers work".

[JaffaCake]

 

Regarding damage/performance/” feelings” It’s probably a good idea to compile as much historic data as you can, perform tests within the sim, with tracks or video footage and submit a report to the Devs either via DM or in the relevant section of the forum.

 

 

People have done that in the past. Developers called the tests very limited and flawed. We do not  have the tools or ability to perform reliable tests that would prove a point beyond reasonable doubt. Thus any sort of "test" performed currently can be easily dismissed and is a waste of time for anyone to do.

 

 

It's amazing how people can tell what has been noticed and what hasn't been noticed and how and why something is not perfect every single time, without having access to the beta testing forums.

 

It's pretty insulting for everyone involved, especially the devs who are working their asses off and the beta testers who are spending their free time to support this project instead of taking apart every single small issue instantly and complain over and over and over on the forums during early access phase. Of course people do the same when things get delayed by a week or two (recently i read how someone wrote that the Spitfire was long ready and the release only delayed because of the sale going on).

 

Unfortunately the opaque development process (closed beta forums), lack of any debug tools for the rest of us - simple users, and lack of any visible proof from the developers (other than "hey guys its all OK on our side") is a direct reason why conspiracy theories, baseless arguments and fanboism exists.

 

I really love this game and I love the general direction the developers are taking it to. But I cannot say that I love the strategy the devs take to interact with the community.

 

I can only bring examples of what happened elsewhere :

 

War thunder had huge issues regarding the community view on the "russian bias" in tank games. Russian penetration and armour. "Bugs" etc. Majority (not all) of these discussions stopped with the introduction of the replay cam, where the users could see how their shell hit and exactly what damage was inflicted. The very same replay cam helped to identify a large number of bugs that the game had but "nothing was being done about them". These bugs were then regularly fixed as soon as the community identified and reported them. This would not have been possible without a replay cam, other than by dedicated people trying to shoot the tanks in exactly the same locations and then having to try to second-guess the trajectory of the shell. The remaining accusations are mostly focused around the choices that the developers took that are also visible, such as the bounce angles for the shells.

 

 

Path of Exile has the CEO of the game regularly read and participate in the discussion of the game. Any serious bugs or concerns that the community may have do not go unheard and are usually answered not just with "all is fine", but with full explanation of why, why not otherwise and how. The answers really leave few gaps to argue and build confidence in the development team. The amount of support and positive attitude from the community those guys have is incredible. (Oh and hey their beta testing forums are open!)

 

I believe that the time spent on explaining and working with the community to truly alleviate these concerns is worth the amount of goodwill and support that such approach would generate.

Edited July 12, 2017 by JaffaCake

[Blutaar]

Matt, of course i dont know what was noticed and what not for sure because like you mentioned, i have no access to the beta testing forums but the guy who did make the Spitfire wasnt aware of the short recovery timer for emergency boost. So this indicates that i might be right about my impression of the recovery timer that it got through unnoticed. If one of the beta tester feels insultet i will apologise for it, sorry guys it was not my intention to insult you. It was just so obvious to me that it jumped me right in the face in the first quickmission test of the Spitfire, sorry. Also the really strong cannons was noticed by more then just me but i didnt mean that this is a bug, just that it feels a bit strong. Should have made it clear in my post.

 

But seriously, what is wrong with some of the guys here in this forum who seems so easily offended about some opinions? As if we hate IL2 and all involved in it just because we critisize parts of the game. Im still not happy with BoX on so many parts of it but i still like it enough to invest my time to test for myself and being vocal about my impressions and feelings. I also did invest money like you to support the devs even while being unhappy with the state of the sim. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Ishtaru