Spitfire - Maybe a Little Too Good?

[Herne]

Sorry but is there really a simplified FM option?I checked everywhere and cant find this.

 

I think on single player campaigns you can choose difficulty. I thought the FM was the same though, to my knowledge it just introduced auto engine management and added friend or foe identification labels etc.

[Guest deleted@50488]

Yes, check the QM Options when creating the Mission.

[unreasonable]

Sorry but is there really a simplified FM option?I checked everywhere and cant find this.

 

Not under Settings, but if you start a mission there is a tab at the bottom called Realism or Realism Options.  Press it and see some options for simplifications and pilot aids that you can choose - if you can bear the shame.  

[Livai]

If the Spitfire - A Little Too Good - Their opponent - A Little too Bad.

[Bullets]

God forbid luftys will actually have to try to get kills now...  They wan't the spit to be slower (Increase boosted cooldown timer) so its even easier for them. Shes already so much slower than anything they have (Even using WEP) and they don't like she can out turn them..     I respect the Devs decision to make it how they did, no need to nerf it just because people cry unfair when they are still in a superior plane and can't be bothered to actually fly using their brains   

[Blutaar]

God forbid luftys will actually have to try to get kills now...  They wan't the spit to be slower (Increase boosted cooldown timer) so its even easier for them. Shes already so much slower than anything they have (Even using WEP) and they don't like she can out turn them..     I respect the Devs decision to make it how they did, no need to nerf it just because people cry unfair when they are still in a superior plane and can't be bothered to actually fly using their brains   

What in the hell do you talking about? To increase the recovery timer has nothing to do with luftwhining. Its about honesty and fairnis. When most engines are limited, why should just one plane have a shorter recovery timer then other planes with limited engines? Spitfire fanboyism is your only reason to say this. 109s where already outturned before the Spit and lets not talk about the 190s turn performance, it has none. You just respect the devs for making it this way because it makes the spit even better. Will you disrespect them when they nerf it because reason? You just didnt get the point about nerfing the recovery timer. And we still not know if it gets nerfed or not, it will just be checked and when the devs decide to tune it down, they do it for a reason. So pls dont claim such nonsense just because you think the Spit is the only plane that deserves a much shorter recovery timer then all the other planes. It looks like you whant some balance towards the spit but i often read that balancing is not welcomed here. Funny guy!

Edited July 10, 2017 by Ishtaru

[CIA_Yankee_]

God forbid luftys will actually have to try to get kills now...  They wan't the spit to be slower (Increase boosted cooldown timer) so its even easier for them. Shes already so much slower than anything they have (Even using WEP) and they don't like she can out turn them..     I respect the Devs decision to make it how they did, no need to nerf it just because people cry unfair when they are still in a superior plane and can't be bothered to actually fly using their brains   

 

To be fair, that is not the OP's point. He was more concerned about the ease of flying the Spit and the FM, not the actual performance of the A/C.

 

That said, I'm sure we'll hear plenty of complaints about the spit, because it IS a more competitive airframe in general, though compared to its BoK contemporaries it is underpowered. The Yak-1b is still a greater threat to those LW pilots who how to fly to their strengths.

 

The main "problem", in effect, is that now the VVS has an A/C that can readily outturn the LW and still is a high performance fighter (unlike the I-16, for example). That means the LW has very little margin for error, and absolutely must focus on their strength and exercise proper discipline. In short, Boom N Zoom, and don't give in to the temptation of trying to get in a turn fight, not even for a few seconds. Because the Spit WILL outturn you AND has the acceleration and climb rate to make extending or climbing away from the turn fight a dangerous proposition.

[dburne]

What in the hell do you talking about? To increase the recovery timer has nothing to do with luftwhining. Its about honesty and fairnis. When most engines are limited, why should just one plane have a shorter recovery timer then other planes with limited engines? 

 

IMHO, 

 

The recovery time should be modelled accurately, or as close as possible -  if that is what it was for the Spit then fine, if not then hopefully at some point they will adjust to accurately represent the actual recovery time.

[Blutaar]

I never read somewhere about a recovery timer in real documents. Of course i know very little of the documents and if there is some, pls give me a link to it. Im allways want to learn something new about ww2 fighterplanes.

[unreasonable]

IMHO, 

 

The recovery time should be modelled accurately, or as close as possible -  if that is what it was for the Spit then fine, if not then hopefully at some point they will adjust to accurately represent the actual recovery time.

 

There is no "recovery time" in RL - it is just a game mechanic.   The time limits were not like engine temp limits where you could go over the top a little, cool off, and then continue. They were purely to extend engine life and reduce the risk of catastrophic failure.

 

I would think there the best way to deal with this is to make all aircraft "recovery times" a fixed proportion of the actual limit specified for that engine. Anyway, Gavrick (dev) responded on this issue in another thread and said he would take a look at it, so perhaps best if everyone cools down while he does.

[Bullets]

To be fair, that is not the OP's point. He was more concerned about the ease of flying the Spit and the FM, not the actual performance of the A/C.

 

That said, I'm sure we'll hear plenty of complaints about the spit, because it IS a more competitive airframe in general, though compared to its BoK contemporaries it is underpowered. The Yak-1b is still a greater threat to those LW pilots who how to fly to their strengths.

 

The main "problem", in effect, is that now the VVS has an A/C that can readily outturn the LW and still is a high performance fighter (unlike the I-16, for example). That means the LW has very little margin for error, and absolutely must focus on their strength and exercise proper discipline. In short, Boom N Zoom, and don't give in to the temptation of trying to get in a turn fight, not even for a few seconds. Because the Spit WILL outturn you AND has the acceleration and climb rate to make extending or climbing away from the turn fight a dangerous proposition.

 

I wasn't aiming at what the OP was saying to be honest, just a general response to what I have seen people saying     I agree with everything you say here Yankee,

 

& @ Ishtaru, sure I like the Spitfire but I wouldn't want it to under OR over perform to historical statistics however like unreasonable stated, cooldown timers are not historically accurate and being a game mechanic can be used to balance aircraft, and I believe the Spit needs no nerf  You sounded personally offended by my comments and I am sorry for that 

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

-yawn-

 

Thank you for your supreme contribution to the discussion.

 

It surely adds a lot to the subject.

[216th_Jordan]

A proportional setting for every plane would not make sense. There is a reason for having different time limits and just making it proportinal would nullify this. (as on average every plane would than have the proportional factor available, just with different interval lengths)

 

My suggestion would be that there should be a discrete time for all planes that they need to recover (lets say 10 min). The reason to have this is that reaching engine boost time limit can be equated with a wear level that is equal on all planes, therefore in continous mode all airplane should need the same time to recover that wear.

 

To be honest though my opinion would be to do away completely with a recovery timer and increase the stochastic mean time for engine failure once time limit has been surpassed.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

 

 

To be honest though my opinion would be to do away completely with a recovery timer and increase the stochastic mean time for engine failure once time limit has been surpassed.

+1

[Holtzauge]

 Well I for one am very happy with the Spitfire from a handling perspective and at the risk of repeating myself: Take a look at these Me-109 and Yak-3 videos: Very little adverse yaw and no wobblying. Almost like on rails. I fully agree with Zacharias post here: More difficult is not necessarily more realistic and if the Spitfire handles better than the other planes right now is most likely because its powered by a later generation IL-2 FM. However, that being said, I have high expectations that the current Me-109 "wobbliness" will be gone in 2.012 but until then I really don't see the point in criticizing the current Spitfire FM since it should be judged alongside the FM’s for the other planes in 2.012 so why not wait until then before passing judgement?

[Dr_Molem]

I feel sad for those 109 pilots who already complain about Spitty... How will it looks when the FM update will get released ? You know, when 109s will roll about twice worse than they do now at high speed (= 0 advantage against Spitty in term of maneuverability).

 

I mean... enjoy for now, soon you'll get nothing else than your engine against Spitfires.

 

FW 190s however... I think a beautiful future awaits them. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Dr_Molem

[Warpig]

Going by pilot accounts, it seems very clear that the Spitfire does have extremely easy to handle flight characteristics compared to other fighter planes. That's just the way it is.

 

Hellcat pilots also loved their planes for ease of flight. Makes me hope that they'll be in the BoP theater.

[III/JG2Gustav05]

To be fair, that is not the OP's point. He was more concerned about the ease of flying the Spit and the FM, not the actual performance of the A/C.

 

That said, I'm sure we'll hear plenty of complaints about the spit, because it IS a more competitive airframe in general, though compared to its BoK contemporaries it is underpowered. The Yak-1b is still a greater threat to those LW pilots who how to fly to their strengths.

 

The main "problem", in effect, is that now the VVS has an A/C that can readily outturn the LW and still is a high performance fighter (unlike the I-16, for example). That means the LW has very little margin for error, and absolutely must focus on their strength and exercise proper discipline. In short, Boom N Zoom, and don't give in to the temptation of trying to get in a turn fight, not even for a few seconds. Because the Spit WILL outturn you AND has the acceleration and climb rate to make extending or climbing away from the turn fight a dangerous proposition.

You are absolutely correct, with current a/c type combination on VSS side, the only option for Luftwaffe pilot is B&Z and H&R if he expects to live longer.

[Wolfstriked]

Thanks for the FM option location guys.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

FW 190s however... I think a beautiful future awaits them.

I agree with what Dr_Molem has posted here. Already the spit 45 can practically climb with a 109g2 running full WEP and can keep up on the deck. If the high speed maneuverability is reduced significantly, then I foresee many Luftwaffe pilots making a shift over to the 190 where at least some flight envelope advantages remain. Interesting times ahead.

[Bullets]

Thank you for your supreme contribution to the discussion.

 

It surely adds a lot to the subject.

 

So does yours buddy   

[Holtzauge]

I agree with what Dr_Molem has posted here. Already the spit 45 can practically climb with a 109g2 running full WEP and can keep up on the deck. If the high speed maneuverability is reduced significantly, then I foresee many Luftwaffe pilots making a shift over to the 190 where at least some flight envelope advantages remain. Interesting times ahead.

 

My point above is only concerning the Spitfire handling: I don't think anyone yet has addressed the performance part as in climb and speed in detail? I definitely plan to look into this deeper later when I find the time but I would be surprised if the G2 won't be able to outrun a Mk5 with ease. In addition, at Steig&Kampffleistung, the G2 should outclimb the Mk5 handily but at +16 boost I believe it will be a close run thing but I guess we will come around to the hard figures in due course.

 

Right now I'm simply content flying around in the Mk5 looking like the Cheshire cat!

[Blutaar]

Going by pilot accounts, it seems very clear that the Spitfire does have extremely easy to handle flight characteristics compared to other fighter planes. That's just the way it is.

 

Hellcat pilots also loved their planes for ease of flight. Makes me hope that they'll be in the BoP theater.

How, i often read the exact same statements about many planes. Pilots loved the 109 for its good handling in the sky and hated them on the ground or on landing. 190 pilots often said how good this plane was and how good the maneuverbility was especially at high speed where it could turn with spits while keeping high speed (dont nail me on that, just remebering old docus). Or what about La5/7 pilots and Yak1/3/9 pilots who talked about there beautiful planes. Its the same for most good aircraft, Pilots often like the plane they fly and think its the best. No offense but i think you could say this about most planes and it would be true.

 

 

I wasn't aiming at what the OP was saying to be honest, just a general response to what I have seen people saying     I agree with everything you say here Yankee,

 

& @ Ishtaru, sure I like the Spitfire but I wouldn't want it to under OR over perform to historical statistics however like unreasonable stated, cooldown timers are not historically accurate and being a game mechanic can be used to balance aircraft, and I believe the Spit needs no nerf  You sounded personally offended by my comments and I am sorry for that 

Indeed i was a it offended by that statement because it was me who started the discussion that the recovery timer of the Merlins are unfairly short compared to other limited engines.

Im the one who, may be, is responsible for a future nerf, just for your information hehe.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Ishtaru

[FTC_Riksen]

I feel sad for those 109 pilots who already complain about Spitty... How will it looks when the FM update will get released ? You know, when 109s will roll about twice worse than they do now at high speed (= 0 advantage against Spitty in term of maneuverability).

 

I mean... enjoy for now, soon you'll get nothing else than your engine against Spitfires.

 

FW 190s however... I think a beautiful future awaits them. 

And the superior engine is all I need. The spit turning ability is useless when fighting in the vertical against a properly flow G2 so yeah turn all u want

[CIA_Yankee_]

You are absolutely correct, with current a/c type combination on VSS side, the only option for Luftwaffe pilot is B&Z and H&R if he expects to live longer.

 

And that's pretty historically accurate, to be honest.

 

And let's be clear, I think the LW advantage is absolutely massive: they get to dictate when and where they fight, and take risks only when they want to.

 

Of course, the realities of the eastern front DOES sometime require the LW to take unwanted risks, due to the low level and tactical nature of the air war. This gives the VVS a chance to force the fights in their favour

[Voidhunger]

And the superior engine is all I need. The spit turning ability is useless when fighting in the vertical against a properly flow G2 so yeah turn all u want

 

Against enemy player on the server maybe , but against AI its pain in the a...

 

 

Edit: It seems that I finally found the cure for the Spitfire after two days of practice. Its not that hard now.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Voidhunger

[Dr_Molem]

And that's pretty historically accurate, to be honest.

 

And let's be clear, I think the LW advantage is absolutely massive: they get to dictate when and where they fight, and take risks only when they want to.

 

Of course, the realities of the eastern front DOES sometime require the LW to take unwanted risks, due to the low level and tactical nature of the air war. This gives the VVS a chance to force the fights in their favour

 

Don't confuse the common 1v1 that we have ingame, with the groups vs groups that mostly happened in real life, because whatever the plane you're flying you'll Hit & Run, but only if you started with an altitude advantage, which is not always the case, whatever your side.

 

Something that should be engraved in the head of every pilot out here.

[eRoN]

I'm concerned about this new FM but don't know too much about its implications. Is it actually going to make it closer to realistic? From what i've read it sounds a bit like its going to make the aircraft fly on rails and floaty, and therefore dumbing it down.

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

I really don't understand where people get this idea that Dogfights never happened in real life from..... Or that for whatever reason 109s were incapable of flying them.... 

[LLv24_Zami]

I'm concerned about this new FM but don't know too much about its implications. Is it actually going to make it closer to realistic? From what i've read it sounds a

bit like its going to make the aircraft fly on rails and floaty, and therefore dumbing it down.

That is a bit odd question imo. Of course the goal of all changes to the FM is to make it more realistic.

[FTC_Riksen]

I'm concerned about this new FM but don't know too much about its implications. Is it actually going to make it closer to realistic? From what i've read it sounds a bit like its going to make the aircraft fly on rails and floaty, and therefore dumbing it down.

 

The "dumbing it down" behavior is actually how aircrafts behave when they have enough speed. The wobble should only happen when it's very slow according to the real pilots I talked to so no, they are not making it arcade but more realistic ...

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Against enemy player on the server maybe , but against AI its pain in the a...

 

 

Edit: It seems that I finally found the cure for the Spitfire after two days of practice. Its not that hard now.

 

OT, but that is a great pic!

 

Gonna make it my screenie for a while

[19//Moach]

yes, I can very much confirm that the spitfire is a step in the right direction with FMs right now 

 

it still does not actually use the new model, which has not (to my knowledge) been announced as a fact by the devs...

 

and from comparison with the CloD version, judging from a point not based on the fantastic A2A simulations addons for FSX as well as others - that precarious feeling of "wobble" is still there, however subtle...

 

 

while the BoX spitfire appears to be the most "correct" plane we got at this point, one can still notice a "precarious unease" felt at the controls in this series with some keen attention - but it's quite subtle indeed, such that you'd probably not notice it unless transitioning from another title onto this without allowing any much time to "acclimate"

 

 

this is just what I had expected, really - makes perfect sense that they'd have tuned the Spitty so that it responds as closely as possible to reality* for now

*i.e: as close as possible to their dev. edition already using the new model

 

and that's probably why it feels "easier".  for certainly, real planes are actually much "tighter" in response, and therefore easier to fly - I've had the opportunity to verify this myself in the few real-world hours I could get before things got too expensive

 

 

still, I've noticed that it's actually rather easy to grow a "biased hand" (aka: muscle memory) - and after flying this series exclusively for some time, any other simulator would feel almost "on rails", for sure...

 

now, this is not because the other sims are "dumbed down" - on the contrary. it is very likely that your reflexes have simply become tuned to the unique quirks of this game, and much like driving a friends car instead of your own, anything different feels weird for a while

 

 

so this is perfectly normal

 

 

real planes indeed don't wobble this much - but I've started noticing that it's not the back-and-forth that makes for a precarious flying experience here, it's a VERY subtle "slack" between input and reaction that makes it unrealistically difficult to keep the plane steady, and this causes the so called "wobbling" as a symptom.

 

this seems to have been corrected for the upcoming FMs, based on what I've read - and that should make the whole sim decidedly more realistic, even if it also makes it "easier" in some ways (which it will, I'm pretty sure)

 

but easier handling won't actually make the game easier in it's whole - remember, your enemy will also get the same benefits

(though some planes with known excesses will be brought back to coherence with reality, perhaps making it harder for anyone who relies on this for an advantage, should their tactics go unadjusted)

 

 

 

and remember, realism is always the ultimate goal here

 

 

so if more realistic makes things "easier", then it's because they were unrealistically "too hard"

 

there is no need to assert one's prowess by suggesting that "it's fine now" and manifesting groundless fears that more stable handling will make it "too easy" - nobody would think you a lesser pilot for supporting a change that makes for a little less "difficulty" (as long as that makes things more realistic)

 

being a good pilot is not about flying in the most demanding situations imaginable just for the sake of proving that you can.... 

 

remember the saying:    Good pilots can land even in the most unfavorable conditions.  Great pilots go around.

Edited July 10, 2017 by 19//Moach

[Jizzo]

As far as i know, there is no global FM change. Each Plane is changed individually, that means the Spit is where it's gonna be at already.

Edited July 10, 2017 by [TWB]Jizzo

[19//Moach]

As far as i know, there is no global FM change. Each Plane is changed individually, that means the Spit is where it's gonna be at already.

 

I believe this is partially the case, but not the whole story

 

each plane is getting changed individually, yes - but this is so because there's been a global change which made it necessary to readjust all planes in order to correct their handling under the resulting new environment...

 

or at least that's how I understood what I read...

 

 

still, it makes sense, if you think about it... if planes were adjusted as well as possible around a model which omitted some things about the nature of flight, once those missing things are implemented, then all planes would surely have to be re-adjusted so they don't over-compensate for what's no longer missing (plus any other improvements which may have been pending)

 

 

 

as a programmer, I find this a most plausible scenario - in fact, I've been through very similar ones myself... (kinda sucks when it happens, but totally worth it in the end)

Edited July 10, 2017 by 19//Moach

[Gambit21]

As far as i know, there is no global FM change. Each Plane is changed individually, that means the Spit is where it's gonna be at already.

It's still a global change.

[BraveSirRobin]

You probably can't properly evaluate the Spit FM relative to other aircraft until after the next update.

[19//Moach]

You probably can't properly evaluate the Spit FM relative to other aircraft until after the next update.

 

I think you just won the thread 

Edited July 10, 2017 by 19//Moach

[CUJO_1970]

You simply have to recalculate your lead and angles in the 190 and convert your measurements from Yak to Spitfire.

 

There is only a very small envelope where the Spitfire is a threat to the 190.

 

Both Yaks are a clearly superior threat.

 

One person commented online in chat "I used to love the Spitfire but now I'm starting to hate it".

[CIA_Yankee_]

Don't confuse the common 1v1 that we have ingame, with the groups vs groups that mostly happened in real life, because whatever the plane you're flying you'll Hit & Run, but only if you started with an altitude advantage, which is not always the case, whatever your side.

 

Something that should be engraved in the head of every pilot out here.

 

Of course, that is such a given that it doesn't need to be said. Whoever has the E advantage will have a significant edge. But let's not pretend A/C performance don't matter.

 

Sure, if Yak-1s get the jump on 109s, the 109s will be in trouble, but if they manage to survive long enough the 109s will stand a good chance to reach co-energy and eventually surpass the Yak-1s.

 

The same, however, cannot be said of the other way around. If it is the 109s that start with an E advantage, the only reason they will ever lose it is if they make a mistake. The Yak-1s will never get the upper hand, and always be at an energy disadvantage no matter how well they try to climb or extend: they are outperformed.